Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[Tobiano8th]

i'm not KW but i will comment on the murder-suicide angle myself

it seems to me almost inconceivable that the police got it WRONG for 6 weeks and overlooked all the common sense evidence that suggested it was M/M....... and there seems to be no credible suggestion that the police pretended it was M/S to somehow trick the M/M perpetrator into a false step (that sounds like columbo)

maybe, there is a 3rd explanation......... maybe the evidence in the home has not been presented properly/fully. perhaps for BS to have done the M/S is not as difficult as people suggest.

i'm being devils advocate as it doesn't seem reasonable it was M/S... but to me, it is just as inconceivable that the police screwed it up that badly for 6 weeks, especially when you'd think caution would have the smart strategy. maybe they've been to too many situations like that where it was M/S that it's an automatic reaction. but not 2 weeks later when people are saying it's absurd. maybe they'd botched it so badly by then that they were shell-shocked and said nothing.

anyway, either shocking incompetence by TPD or maybe it was M/S....... if they were poor immigrants, it would be still be M/S today

 

[rickcross]

Another possibility, the killer toured the home during the open house or a real estate showing and checked out the security system. However I think there’s very few private dwellings with security cameras inside, recording the movements of the homeowners. Other than reason to check out the activities of nannies or house cleaners, what would be the point? Most security systems are focused on entrances and windows as a safeguard against break-ins so if a disguise was used, chances are it would only be required upon entering and exit.

Adding to that thought, if there are no visible cameras outside the house, chances are slim to none that there are cameras inside the house.

 

[rickcross]

Imminent arrest of the multiple murderers.....NOT!
LMAO

I agree. Still would love to know what the architect had to say about that final meeting.

 

[Arnie M]

I agree. Still would love to know what the architect had to say about that final meeting.

Me too !!! ..... if they were loving and happy and exited about the new home it would tell us a lot ..... but if they were divisive and arguing and angry would tell us everything.

 

[Arnie M]

Adding to that thought, if there are no visible cameras outside the house, chances are slim to none that there are cameras inside the house.

(From memory) ... I recall there was a camera in the pool room .... but it was turned away and was not operating ..... maybe it was not a typical security camera but was there for parents to monitor children in the pool for safety reasons ... I have seen them before .... mother can be in the kitchen or living room and still keep an eye on the kids.

But my point is ... a stranger to the house would see the camera and expect there were more and would not stage a MS if he suspected cameras were around.

 

[MistyWaters]

i'm not KW but i will comment on the murder-suicide angle myself

it seems to me almost inconceivable that the police got it WRONG for 6 weeks and overlooked all the common sense evidence that suggested it was M/M....... and there seems to be no credible suggestion that the police pretended it was M/S to somehow trick the M/M perpetrator into a false step (that sounds like columbo)

maybe, there is a 3rd explanation......... maybe the evidence in the home has not been presented properly/fully. perhaps for BS to have done the M/S is not as difficult as people suggest.

i'm being devils advocate as it doesn't seem reasonable it was M/S... but to me, it is just as inconceivable that the police screwed it up that badly for 6 weeks, especially when you'd think caution would have the smart strategy. maybe they've been to too many situations like that where it was M/S that it's an automatic reaction. but not 2 weeks later when people are saying it's absurd. maybe they'd botched it so badly by then that they were shell-shocked and said nothing.

anyway, either shocking incompetence by TPD or maybe it was M/S....... if they were poor immigrants, it would be still be M/S today

I think it’s important to remember TPS never officially announced the deaths were presumed to be a M/S. The source of this rumour was an anonymous police officer whom Warmington never identified. For the homicide division to spend six weeks containing a crime scene while interviewing over 100 witnesses, gathering a ton of video, carrying out box after box of evidence is absolutely unnecessary during a M/S investigation because it’s the medical autopsy of the victims that indicates what occurred IMO.

Warmington’s “police sources” do not always provide accurate information as noted during the more recent Nova Scotia massacre -
“The first two dead are believed to be 51-year-old Wortman’s “ex (wife or girlfriend) and her new boyfriend,” say police sources...”
JOE WARMINGTON: Nova Scotia mass murder was evil and calculated | The Chronicle Herald

 

[MistyWaters]

(From memory) ... I recall there was a camera in the pool room .... but it was turned away and was not operating ..... maybe it was not a typical security camera but was there for parents to monitor children in the pool for safety reasons ... I have seen them before .... mother can be in the kitchen or living room and still keep an eye on the kids.

But my point is ... a stranger to the house would see the camera and expect there were more and would not stage a MS if he suspected cameras were around.

I don’t think we know enough to say a M/S was intended to be staged. It seems to me at first glance the murders were pre-planned to appear as a double suicide and maybe Honey had an opportunity to defend herself from the killer however he didn’t deviate from the original plan for whatever reason. Maybe seeing both of them strung up in a hanging position representing guilt had become too deep a diabolical obsession for him to suddenly forego? The scene appears far too complicated for a staged M/S where typically in real tragedies such as that it’s far more obvious - the murder victim found in one location and the apparent resourceful murderer dead by suicide found in another.

There’s several reasons for killer to have skulked out the home during the real estate Open House including:
- To preview the property and understand the layout in preparation for the murders and staged deaths.
- To address why his DNA might’ve been later found in the home. Even if the killer didn’t sign and leave a phone number in the guest book or left false information, that’s very common. We all know this information is left only for the benefit of followup calls by realtors.

I do not believe any of the Sherman children were involved.

JMO

 

[Tobiano8th]

I think it’s important to remember TPS never officially announced the deaths were presumed to be a M/S. The source of this rumour was an anonymous police officer whom Warmington never identified. For the homicide division to spend six weeks containing a crime scene while interviewing over 100 witnesses, gathering a ton of video, carrying out box after box of evidence is absolutely unnecessary during a M/S investigation because it’s the medical autopsy of the victims that indicates what occurred IMO.

Misty, that is a very good point....... maybe the media and internet community (myself included) went with a few unconfirmed sources and it snowballed.

 

[Tobiano8th]

pretty much every opinion i've seen from people close to S family/apotex/toronto jewish society/etc. seems to be the same.... basically they think a specific family member did it. but they could be very very wrong. at most, they have a few bits of circumstantial evidence to back up those opinions.

i too wonder if it's almost impossible for it to be a family member and to have done it themselves....... i have enough problems building a fence for the first time without going to home depot 10 times. i couldn't imagine killing someone in the manner of this case and getting away with it (never having done it before nor being part of a criminal organization).......... i think they say this in the ads for American Justice (maybe another similar show): basically it is very very hard to crack a "murder for hire" case as the persons have no association with the victim but have been assisted by those with intimate knowledge of the victim. and of course the person paying for the murder has a rock-solid alibi for the time of the attack.

 

[casesensitive]

I'd like to know the identity of the two people who refused to talk to LE, and the person LE wanted to speak to, but couldn't because the person left Canada shortly after the Sherman's demise. That information was supplied by the TPS to court.

I'd also like to know if anyone refused to take a polygraph test, regardless of the usual attorney advice to not take one. These are all red flags to LE, and has probably led them in a certain direction.

Can you imagine if we had those names? It would keep this thread alive for a long time (with mods working overtime deleting posts discussing unnamed POI's). We have nothing to work on, and obviously red flags don't prove anything. So, we sit and wait for TPS to make an arrest(s) that will be successful in bringing to trial.

 

[casesensitive]

pretty much every opinion i've seen from people close to S family/apotex/toronto jewish society/etc. seems to be the same.... basically they think a specific family member did it. but they could be very very wrong. at most, they have a few bits of circumstantial evidence to back up those opinions.

Where have you seen all these opinions from all of these sources that a specific family member did it?

 

[Tobiano8th]

i remember the people being uncooperative and/or leaving the country when the police wanted to talk to them.......

i remember that from the KD book. near the end i think........ many people were disappointed in the KD book but i don't know what they expect, especially if they were knowledgable about the case and the sherman's/apotex/toronto society/etc...... i did think that a number of things in the KD book had a "read between the lines" quality to them. this being the #1 example...... the only other new insight i got from KD book was that HS and JS hated each other. but it was never expanded upon (maybe very generically....... HS thought BS showered the kids - and others - with too much money)

at some point, i think the police and/or KD needs to get some of this info in the public's hands.... does this relate to the supreme court cases? or are they finished?

 

[deugirtni]

Me too !!! ..... if they were loving and happy and exited about the new home it would tell us a lot ..... but if they were divisive and arguing and angry would tell us everything.

What if they were divisive and arguing but not necessarily angry? Perhaps that is part of the reason for silence surrounding that last meeting, since way too much could potentially be read into it when in reality it is likely quite common for spouses to disagree and bicker about reno/planning details?

 

[Tighthead]

What if they were divisive and arguing but not necessarily angry? Perhaps that is part of the reason for silence surrounding that last meeting, since way too much could potentially be read into it when in reality it is likely quite common for spouses to disagree and bicker about reno/planning details?

Good point.

People would take “they disagreed about the orientation of the solarium” as evidence of conflict. Also just like everyone grieves differently, every relationship is different. Some couples openly bicker in a fractious manner but it’s meaningless.

 

[deugirtni]

Exactly. Some people argue about *everything*.. and I'm pretty sure it's tough for their spouses to hold their tongues sometimes and not argue back, but if they do, and it's witnessed by others, those others may come away with a totally negative impression of those couples' relationships, when it might just be the norm for them. And I'm assuming, especially if media gets hold of such information, they may play it up to add spice to a story.

 

[Arnie M]

His wife bought him a fancy new sports car for his birthday and he made her take it back ... he was content driving his old clunker ... I wonder what the atmosphere was like during that conversation.

Most likely HS was exuberant and exited about the surprise gift only to get it slammed down , not to mention the hassles trying to return the car , the dealer would never give a full refund because it is no longer a brand new car. I wonder how many other "debates" they had on other things. BS was never into extravagant showmanship but HS most certainly was

To reject and return a car is one thing , couple of days of hassles and hurt feelings and then life goes on.

However the new house issue was a monster by comparison ... it has been said BS was content where they were and did not want to uproot and move .... after all this was his house and home we are talking about .... maybe he reached the boiling point and snapped ... after all it appears the new house by HS was 100% for showmanship

A lot more here than bickering over curtain rods.

 

[MistyWaters]

His wife bought him a fancy new sports car for his birthday and he made her take it back ... he was content driving his old clunker ... I wonder what the atmosphere was like during that conversation.

Most likely HS was exuberant and exited about the surprise gift only to get it slammed down , not to mention the hassles trying to return the car , the dealer would never give a full refund because it is no longer a brand new car. I wonder how many other "debates" they had on other things. BS was never into extravagant showmanship but HS most certainly was

To reject and return a car is one thing , couple of days of hassles and hurt feelings and then life goes on.

However the new house issue was a monster by comparison ... it has been said BS was content where they were and did not want to uproot and move .... after all this was his house and home we are talking about .... maybe he reached the boiling point and snapped ... after all it appears the new house by HS was 100% for showmanship

A lot more here than bickering over curtain rods.

If B was content to stay where they’d presently lived, why would he agree to list the existing home a couple of weeks prior to the double murders?

The Forest Hill property was purchased in 2016, the existing house demolished, blueprints for the new home were almost complete, zoning variances were approved, construction was soon to begin. That didn’t happen overnight without any financial investment. If he’d never wanted to move he could’ve balked at any stage, especially if it’s true H was only provided with cash to manage household expenses.

 

[deugirtni]

His wife bought him a fancy new sports car for his birthday and he made her take it back ... he was content driving his old clunker ... I wonder what the atmosphere was like during that conversation.

Most likely HS was exuberant and exited about the surprise gift only to get it slammed down , not to mention the hassles trying to return the car , the dealer would never give a full refund because it is no longer a brand new car. I wonder how many other "debates" they had on other things. BS was never into extravagant showmanship but HS most certainly was

To reject and return a car is one thing , couple of days of hassles and hurt feelings and then life goes on.

However the new house issue was a monster by comparison ... it has been said BS was content where they were and did not want to uproot and move .... after all this was his house and home we are talking about .... maybe he reached the boiling point and snapped ... after all it appears the new house by HS was 100% for showmanship

A lot more here than bickering over curtain rods.

Personally, I can't even imagine purchasing a luxury vehicle for "the breadwinner" of the family, without consultation.... although I do know a couple who experienced exactly that. To me, it's good on him for him to have returned it. We've read that he left her in charge of the homestead stuff, however.. although it seems he wasn't too meek to express his opinions. I'm of the thought that TPS wouldn't have declared double homicide if that wasn't really the case. Jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

If B was content to stay where they’d presently lived, why would he agree to list the existing home a couple of weeks prior to the double murders?

The Forest Hill property was purchased in 2016, the existing house demolished, blueprints for the new home were almost complete, zoning variances were approved, construction was soon to begin. That didn’t happen overnight without any financial investment. If he’d never wanted to move he could’ve balked at any stage, especially if it’s true H was only provided with cash to manage household expenses.

Which begs the question... how did HS buy a luxury vehicle with that kind of limitation on her access to money. Makes me wonder if she brought that vehicle home for his b-day gift with the understanding that he *could* return it if it was a no go - but then as the story got retold, some words got switched around to make it a better story? In any case it certainly, imho, explains why BS did apparently put limitations on her access.

I forget who officially owned the home they were living in, I believe it was in a corporate name, IIRC. In any case, surely BS would've had to sign that listing agreement, especially since it was the matrimonial home in which they'd lived and raised their kids in for a number of years. If he was *that* opposed to selling and building, surely he wouldn't have signed it?​

 

[JayFriend]

Personally, I can't even imagine purchasing a luxury vehicle for "the breadwinner" of the family, without consultation.... although I do know a couple who experienced exactly that. To me, it's good on him for him to have returned it.

People with infinite funds available do crazy things, meaning well. I can see BS's point of view He had a car, well-maintained, that he liked and was comfortable with. Switching to something brand new, with all kinds of new gimmicks to learn, would be a pain. He was just being practical.