CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #21

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  • #541
That’s just it. Unless it’s in the ITOs and I haven’t seen it, we don’t know where or if her coat was found.
There are lots of things not in the ITOs that we should accept as fact. KD provides lots along these lines. It’s about likelihoods and deduction with all this stuff. Of course we can’t “know” the NW didn’t take the coat, but we basically know that didn’t happen. For example. Similar to the stuff about her being carjacked. The evidence that exists now is what’s referred to as a rumor in the ITO. Therefore there’s actually no evidence she was carjacked and there’s no evidence that she was with anyone. All complete conjecture that the police have to follow up on. It could be the case that the forensic detail of her front seat in particular was tantamount to following up with a psychic tipster. Yes, there are limits in our knowledge, but we can logically deduce things based on rules like deduction and parsimony. That said, this is difficult. We simply don't have all info.

Anyways, imo, simpler to assume she went home alone for many reasons - not needing to rely on abject conjecture on that big question is one.

imo, speculation
 
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  • #542
I can’t follow directions or picture it without it being mapped. Can you post one? If not I’ll try to, but I don’t know if google maps has the details you’re speaking of. I’d like to understand,
It certainly does, see my detailed post with maps from yesterday for reference re: Harrison, the path to Forest Heights, etc.

imo, speculation
 
  • #543
There are lots of things not in the ITOs that we should accept as fact. KD provides lots along these lines. It’s about likelihoods and deduction with all this stuff. Of course we can’t “know” the NW didn’t take the coat, but we basically know that didn’t happen. For example. Similar to the stuff about her being carjacked. The evidence that exists now is what’s referred to as a rumor in the ITO. Therefore there’s actually no evidence she was carjacked and there’s no evidence that she was with anyone. All complete conjecture. Simplier to assume she went home alone for many reasons.

imo, speculation

I wouldn’t make assumptions about anything, personally. The coat may be significant, and we haven’t heard anything about her car keys, possible fob with alarm, or house keys.

The realtor said she found a house key in the lock box, the housekeeper had a set, and at least one of the children had a set (I’d have to dig for links and I’m not able to today or tomorrow, so it’s imo.) I haven’t heard where or if they found Honey’s or Barry’s keys, or *where* they found Barry’s wallet (I know they found it.)

The details of where everything was, or was not, may indicate what happened, imo.
 
  • #544
I've seen the warrant documents and ITOs. Interestingly, they make reference to the walking man walking on Old Colony Road. It could just be a typo. They may, however, have evidence of him on Old Colony. Here me out.

There is a small side street called Harrison, not annotated in the below map, but going east down Old Colony its the first left. There is nothing on that little street, at the end there is a brush but also a pavement walkway that comes out on the street behind, forest heights. I've confirmed with those in the neighborhood that that path has been there for years. The pavement is also clearly old and has an old drain jutting up at the entrance off Harrison. It was definitely there in 2017. From there its a straight shot down to Vyner. Vyner must have been used because if you walk it (I have), its completely isolated. Trees on both sides with no houses for a while. The bus stop I cite (#115) runs until 1030 pm and its at the next intersection after the last recorded video of NW on Bannatyne Drive. Recall, bus system holds video for 72 h only. The end point of that route is a subway station with lots of tentacles. They also only hold video for 72 h then scrub for privacy reasons.

View attachment 428539
This one shows the Harrison path if it was taken. Makes sense for the exit, why go through the back way again, risk interaction with neighbors etc., when you were planning on walking on the street anyways? Its a shorter distance to cover, especially with that uphill on Vyner to get to Bannatyne.
View attachment 428551These are screengrabs from the warrant files. Specifically, Yim's ITO#8 Appendix C - 2018. Multiple references are made to the person walking *on* Old Colony Road
View attachment 428548
View attachment 428549
We know TPS has been careless at times, but what to make of the direct reference to the NW *on* Old Colony Road multiple times in a warrant application to a Judge?

None of this would be contradicted by Det. Sergeant Price's comments at the press conference: "We were able to get images from nearby, on either side, kind of, and around the Sherman household and this individual walks into that area, does not continue to walk through but remains in that area that's not covered by video footage, and remains in there and then comes back out some time later, and that's how we've been able to narrow this individual's location down."

His commentary here is interesting. Why use the statement "walk through". He *does not* walk through initially, Price says. As if this was to be expected? Is this a tell? That they have him walking through and just don't confirm it directly? So entry through the back. Execute the Shermans. Then exit by walking right out onto Old Colony Road down a couple houses to Harrison then you're basically invisible until Bannatyne.

He goes on:
"Well its a fairly defined area."

imo, speculation
For Reference @Lexiintoronto
 
  • #545
  • #546
I wouldn’t make assumptions about anything, personally. The coat may be significant, and we haven’t heard anything about her car keys, possible fob with alarm, or house keys.

The realtor said she found a house key in the lock box, the housekeeper had a set, and at least one of the children had a set (I’d have to dig for links and I’m not able to today or tomorrow, so it’s imo.) I haven’t heard where or if they found Honey’s or Barry’s keys, or *where* they found Barry’s wallet (I know they found it.)

The details of where everything was, or was not, may indicate what happened, imo.
WARNING: Details of the offence below, which may be disturbing.

-----

We have enough evidence to reasonably substantiate a doorway ambush for BS and then manual strangulation and hanging.

He was likely hung first, curiously, given the staging details. They likely wouldn't hang her closer to the door, then carry him over her for placement. Too complicated and unnecessary for the actual staging portion of the crime. He was likely killed second and strung up first. Or he was killed in front of her and strung up first.

This is why KD made the bizarre comment that HS may have been on the floor in the hallway, "dead or dying" when BS walked in.

If this wanders into complicated territory (as in keeping them alive for a while) that points to a two man team - no evidence of this at all but KD still floats that idea earnestly. Its fair to assume for many reasons. But how on earth could TPS not have the second killer on ANY camera? Unlikely. Would they take the risk of not releasing both given all the criticism they have faced? According to Price, they are strategic.

Regardless, he was ambushed at the door. There's no competing theory that isn't total baseless conjecture.

Did they enter the pool room alive but bound?

For HS, it is trickier, however the phone and shoes are key. Did she drive in her slip ons? In December? Unlikely. All this, to me, points to her being in the house and mobile for a brief time before being ambushed. Someone knocked on the door, or someone stumbled upon her on the main floor intentionally, she fought back, got away long enough to get to the powder room, where she was overpowered, injured somehow (struggle or intentional?) and bound.

imo, speculation
 
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  • #547
As far as I'm concerned there are lots of possibilities and many things we can and can't rule out. The police have not released a lot of info and we are just speculating on what may have occurred.

We all can make educated guesses but even that may be incorrect.

As far as what route the NW took, does it really matter in the long run? Is it going to lead us directly to his home? I am 100 percent it wont, so we probably still won't be able to figure out who this person is. The NW is probably long gone and could be in a different country by now. I think the focus should be if the NW was hired then who hired him/her? Who is the mastermind behind the murders? Also, we can try to see if this NW is familiar/friend/acquaintance of the Shermans. Then we might get closer to who committed these murders. JMO

It would be nice to know what the height is of many of the Shermans friends etc..apparently KD knows but he's not telling...wonder why????

Also, we have had a pandemic since these murders...this NW could have died. Who knows....JMO
 
  • #548
As far as I'm concerned there are lots of possibilities and many things we can and can't rule out. The police have not released a lot of info and we are just speculating on what may have occurred.

We all can make educated guesses but even that may be incorrect.

As far as what route the NW took, does it really matter in the long run? Is it going to lead us directly to his home? I am 100 percent it wont, so we probably still won't be able to figure out who this person is. The NW is probably long gone and could be in a different country by now. I think the focus should be if the NW was hired then who hired him/her? Who is the mastermind behind the murders? Also, we can try to see if this NW is familiar/friend/acquaintance of the Shermans. Then we might get closer to who committed these murders. JMO

It would be nice to know what the height is of many of the Shermans friends etc..apparently KD knows but he's not telling...wonder why????

Also, we have had a pandemic since these murders...this NW could have died. Who knows....JMO
Fair points. I wouldn't write off the relevance necessarily. There could be, for examples, invesitgative progress that makes this stuff very relevant. That said, I tend to view this similar to you. Even with respect to staging. At some level, the motive behind the staging is unlikely to be a smoking gun in the case. They were brutally murdered at an advantageous time by someone who either knew that estate well, or learned it well in the weeks prior. That, as they say, is the point.

The biggest lesson here, is that the devil is in the details. Recall KD glossing over DH call in an early episode. Only to stumble upon this in another context. That will, whatever was going on there, seems highly relevant.

This week in December was unusual for them. Something was up with the estate/will/succession - too much evidence to suggest that wasn't at play.

As for the heights, I believe KD has said he has them for all parties but won't release.

NW really could be a 'hitman' just not the type you see in the movies. Again though, KD has more than us and is pretty fixated on the fact there was no hitman, NW is part of murder team according to him ("lookout" or active killer).

imo, speculation

ps: everyone is talking about BS emails to various people. If their electronics were really that unsecure, who is to say BS even sent some of the later emails? The murder team is suspected by some to have had open access in some way to their electronics or schedules. Hard to say here - little known info beyond the convos around will, etc.

imo, speculation
 
  • #549
We are discussing not the entire length of Harrison. We are discussing OCR onto Harrison, aka on to a dead end by vehicle. But by foot there is a path “connecting” OCR and Forest Heights. From there it’s a straight shot to Vyner (limited camera coverage) then on to Bannatyne.

The discussion relates to the fact we have no evidence that they came and went exactly the same way. And we have evidence the police say in the warrant files the NW was “on” OCR multiple times, and was elsewhere.

imo, speculation
Just so you know, the dead end is a stones throw from Harrison Public school. I say this because you mentioned that there was nothing on Harrison. Harrison Public School isn't nothing. Just saying.
 
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  • #550
As far as I'm concerned there are lots of possibilities and many things we can and can't rule out. The police have not released a lot of info and we are just speculating on what may have occurred.

We all can make educated guesses but even that may be incorrect.

As far as what route the NW took, does it really matter in the long run? Is it going to lead us directly to his home? I am 100 percent it wont, so we probably still won't be able to figure out who this person is. The NW is probably long gone and could be in a different country by now. I think the focus should be if the NW was hired then who hired him/her? Who is the mastermind behind the murders? Also, we can try to see if this NW is familiar/friend/acquaintance of the Shermans. Then we might get closer to who committed these murders. JMO

It would be nice to know what the height is of many of the Shermans friends etc..apparently KD knows but he's not telling...wonder why????

Also, we have had a pandemic since these murders...this NW could have died. Who knows....JMO

OCR onward, there’s nothing, just that pavement path to Forest Heights, Vyner, and Bannatyne.
We need a local’s perspective!

I understand the Leslie/Sheppard area well because I worked there and I have some idea, but that’s worlds away from the Shermans’ neighbourhood and all the small details the WM must have known.

If you, or anyone, can give us insight that is helpful, imo.
Lexi, the reason I mapped, from memory this path is because I remember somewhere in the past it being stated (police re: NW?) that it was approximately 2 k from Bannatyne to OC. Remember thinking, no it's a little more than that given the direct path from Bannatyne to OC stated.
 
  • #551
Like I said the route the NW took isn't of interest to me, but here is an article with a map that may help. It was posted here before.

"Police have determined that this person enters a “defined area” very close to the Sherman home that is not covered by video footage. The person does not “continue to walk through” to the other side of this defined area. The person stays near the home for a “suspicious amount of time” and then returns the same way."

"With help from neighbours and friends of the Shermans, the Star has identified the place where the video was captured. It was recorded by a home security system on Bannatyne Drive, 1.3 kilometres to the east of Old Colony Road. Looking at the video, the Star has determined the person is walking southeast on Bannatyne, away from the Sherman home. It is snowing and the person passes a fire hydrant that police used to estimate his height and keeps going southeast. Eventually, Bannatyne intersects with Leslie Street. The Sherman home on Old Colony is to the west, close to Bayview Avenue.

From Bannatyne, there are numerous ways the person could leave the neighbourhood, including walking out to Leslie."
 
  • #552
Lexi, the reason I mapped, from memory this path is because I remember somewhere in the past it being stated (police re: NW?) that it was approximately 2 k from Bannatyne to OC. Remember thinking, no it's a little more than that given the direct path from Bannatyne to OC stated.

I’ve posted a few possible routes, but the issue is that google maps gave me few options. I posted this mid-April:


From what I understand, the NW suspect is on the north side of Bannatyne, close to Beaverhall (where the Shermans lived prior to Old Colony) facing traffic, walking in a s-e direction towards Leslie, according to the Star.

DC796A37-1EF6-482D-9417-9201F0C1D024.jpeg

Google map images. One possible route of NW suspect.

This is a current bus schedule for the Bannatyne bus. The last two westbound buses at Beaverhall & Bannatyne are at 10:08 & 10:35 pm. So the bus likely passed the person, facing them, unless they boarded it or changed direction, imo. Bus Route 115 Silver Hills Westbound
If they boarded the bus they’d change direction and would be travelling westbound, but the bus goes in a loop and would quickly return them going s-e towards Leslie again.

5F49D3A5-5966-4562-B5D2-3091F54783FE.jpeg

Bus Route 115 Silver Hills Westbound

Limited service Operates at limited times of day. Frequency of service varies by route. Some service does not operate during all periods.
www.ttc.ca
www.ttc.ca

_____

I posted that because KD said his sources placed the WM suspect at the Shermans’ home from 8:45-10:00 pm.They also believe he was caught on cctv on Bannatyne at approximately 10:30pm.

It’s about a 1.3 km walk if you go by the google map, but what if he cut through backyards or made short cuts? It’s something a local would be aware of that the average person may miss, imo.
 
  • #553
  • #554
Like I said the route the NW took isn't of interest to me, but here is an article with a map that may help. It was posted here before.

"Police have determined that this person enters a “defined area” very close to the Sherman home that is not covered by video footage. The person does not “continue to walk through” to the other side of this defined area. The person stays near the home for a “suspicious amount of time” and then returns the same way."

"With help from neighbours and friends of the Shermans, the Star has identified the place where the video was captured. It was recorded by a home security system on Bannatyne Drive, 1.3 kilometres to the east of Old Colony Road. Looking at the video, the Star has determined the person is walking southeast on Bannatyne, away from the Sherman home. It is snowing and the person passes a fire hydrant that police used to estimate his height and keeps going southeast. Eventually, Bannatyne intersects with Leslie Street. The Sherman home on Old Colony is to the west, close to Bayview Avenue.

From Bannatyne, there are numerous ways the person could leave the neighbourhood, including walking out to Leslie."
Thank you.

KD again recently said he thinks the WM started and ended at Leslie.
FWIW, there’s an apartment building in his path if he made his way to
Leslie from Bannatyne. (44 Stubbs Dr.)

10CC2736-4A6D-4E03-BA6A-528616852F7D.jpeg


(google maps image).

He disappeared from cctv after 59 Bannatyne and that’s a short walk to Beaverhall where the Shermans previously lived.
 
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  • #555
I wonder if the NW took her coat to wear under his and therefore to look bulkier than he is. Or, did they both bleed on her coat and he took it so his DNA isn't found? KD seems to think the coat is significant and after reading the last few pages of posts, I can understand why.
 
  • #556
That’s just it. Unless it’s in the ITOs and I haven’t seen it, we don’t know where or if her coat was found.
is it normal for the case not to include ( if anything was missing from the house ? )
and who would be the one responsible to decide if anything was missing ( like the will if it was there )
 
  • #557
Det. Sargeant Price also smirks when saying that walking was the "general" mode of travel "to and from *the defined area*". Again, think about logistics here. NW has to get to the subdivision somehow. He isn't walking all over Toronto and so had to be dropped off somewhere. You'd want somewhere close without cameras to pick up the quick exit from the murder team's drop off vehicle. The getaway vehicle would be waiting in some parking lot off the bus or subway route. They did not want NW on camera getting into some vehicle. They want a vehicle, with a driver, without a cell phone, or using a communication method not traceable (radio, special phone set up, etc.) who does a benign drive by off the 401 to a dead camera zone close to the estate. Then they continue on, the vehicle need not even stop to let NW out in the camera dead zone. Then continue on in your untraceable and benign vehicle.

One has to think, from the perspective of the murder team, better to be on some public camera that's scrubbed in 72 h as opposed to a bunch of private home cameras who could have the tape for a week and likely longer. Recall that KD believes that its likely Wednesday was specific. Thursday would have been logistically easier and less risky given less chance of anyone else at the house, etc. That timeline, and the correct assumption that no one would be alert to nefarious actions. It is still mind boggling how long they were staged before anyone suspected anything. But, as KD says, a perfect storm. Major players were out of town during that precise 36-48 hour time period. It goes beyond a stroke of luck, playing into the deep planning the murder team engaged in. This may have been their first time, but they were prepared and got lucky, too.

If one was going to do this, they planned and deliberated. Their success for 60 months shows this. It wasn't *just
* TPS mistakes. They planned a lot. I suspect if it wasn't done something like this, this was a very viable and attractive option considered by the murder team.

imo, speculation
Welcome to Ws @MrsHenryAbra!
The scenario you presented seems very plausible, one thing that i would expect of an assassination team (whether ''pro'' or amateur), is that they would rehearse the plan in advance, maybe same time at night to watch for the timing, lights, cameras, neighbours, etc. imo, speculation.
There is also the Stubbs route.
Walking east on Bannatyne Dr you can hit a street called Stubbs Dr.
Stubbs is very interesting in my opinion. Stubbs is a dead end street with an apartment building at the end.
Not as affluent as the rest of the area. Not as many cameras .
Here is what strikes me. Stubbs ends at Lesley so you would think that's not a viable escape route, except there is a staircase at the dead end that takes you onto Lesley. It's a part of Lesley with nothing in the way of business or residential properties facing that staircase.
I would also think that you would have to be very familiar with the area to know about this little area and staircase. Could be the perfect escape route.
Sorry, I don't think was clear. I am not great at this so be patient with me guys. I meant to add that because Stubbs is a dead end street it would not be a good escape route but then there is the staircase that changes everything.
 
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  • #558
There is also the Stubbs route.
Walking east on Bannatyne Dr you can hit a street called Stubbs Dr.
Stubbs is very interesting in my opinion. Stubbs is a dead end street with an apartment building at the end.
Not as affluent as the rest of the area. Not as many cameras .
Here is what strikes me. Stubbs ends at Lesley so you would think that's not a viable escape route, except there is a staircase at the dead end that takes you onto Lesley. It's a part of Lesley with nothing in the way of business or residential properties facing that staircase.
I would also think that you would have to be very familiar with the area to know about this little area and staircase. Could be the perfect escape route.
Sorry, I don't think was clear. I am not great at this so be patient with me guys. I meant to add that because Stubbs is a dead end street it would not be a good escape route but then there is the staircase that changes everything.
I mapped Stubbs above and wondered what if they actually lived in that area?

The sudden drop off cctv footage has to have an explanation. Just about everyone has a ring doorbell or something similar, especially because that area was hard hit by a rash of burglaries at the time (including the Shermans a year prior to the murders.)

I know parking is a big issue in that area, imo.
 
  • #559
Just a last minute thought, any chance the killer got around on a bicycle?
Not an uncommon sight in the winter, plus they are quiet, dark, easy to hide, hard to see and can be quickly dismantled and disposed of (or readily stolen ) etc. speculation, imo.
 
  • #560
I wish there would be an arrest & a trial to establish what happened
 
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