CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[ldlager]

What would it take to make you believe that the police have the videos Donovan describes below?

Police found it suspicious that this person, caught on multiple video cameras, was walking in the neighbourhood between 9 p.m. and midnight, the time when police say the Shermans were killed. The person, the videos show, moves from east to west, walking at least two kilometres, until the person comes to a point “tight” to the Sherman home. The person, as police have revealed, spends a “suspicious” amount of time in an area near the Sherman home that is notcovered by any of the neighbourhood home security cameras. Then the person leaves the same way the person arrived, heading east. The lone video police revealed to the public shows the person walking 1.3 kilometres east of the Sherman home, possibly heading to Leslie Street. The Sherman home is in a neighbourhood bounded by Bayview Avenue on the west and Leslie on the east.

I assume that LE is being truthful about having these videos.
That does not preclude the killers, if they are not the NW, from entering and leaving the Sherman’s house and neighbouring streets while not appearing on any videos. I note that LE has not identified the NW as the murderer, and simply being filmed near the Sherman’s house is certainly not enough evidence to convict anyone. Even if they knew who he is.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

(Dropping these in as I notice them—fwiw).

In ITO # 10, Detective Yim cross-references the path of the WM and how he retraced his steps, making cell calls in order to find which cell towers handled the calls in specific places.

In the document he explained that in order for some of the cell companies to do a ‘tower dump’ at the request of police, they require that test calls be made first in the locations. Detective Yim did so—except for one area.

In the ITOs, they don’t use abbreviations for the addresses. The only address I could find that was about 24 spaces is Forest Heights Boulevard, a street which backs on to the former Sherman home. It looks to me that it’s a single digit, which would place it near Bayview. (A circuitous route, if my guesses are right.)

Google image map. Bayview & single-digit FHB homes are at the small pin. I could be wrong, or the WM went father west at some point.

 

[fadedglitter]

I assume that LE is being truthful about having these videos.
That does not preclude the killers, if they are not the NW, from entering and leaving the Sherman’s house and neighbouring streets while not appearing on any videos. I note that LE has not identified the NW as the murderer, and simply being filmed near the Sherman’s house is certainly not enough evidence to convict anyone. Even if they knew who he is.

January 2019 ITO: (bolded by me)
In this application I am seeking what is commonly referred to as “tower dumps”. In
particular, I am seeking production orders for transmission data from telecommunication
service providers identifying devices involved in communications transmitted through cell
towers in the vicinity of:

a) Honey and Bernard SHERMAN in the hours leading up to the murders;
b) the unidentified suspected killer walking in the area of 50 Old Colony Road, and
c) 50 Old Colony Road (the location of the murders).

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I know this is an unusual and strange question. But is it possible that the NW was in fact BS? (His body wasn’t discovered until 2 days after the NW was filmed. ) A stretch I know, but we have nothing else to go on.

It crossed my mind early on. But Barry seemed to be taller than 5’10. And if KD’s sources are correct, the WM was caught on cctv approaching the home at around the same time Barry left Apotex.

To me, the WM has sloped shoulders and KW, FDA, Barry and Alex G. also seem to have the same posture. But only Alex G. is described as short.

 

[INSP MORSE]

I agree. First the family, then KD, and various others seem to believe it's the job of police to share all their investigative efforts so that these other people can solve the crime, independent of police.

I'm not quite sure what the idea is. Once they solve it, are these independent sleuths intending to arrest the perps themselves, charge them and prosecute them at trial? Or is the goal to first publish "I/We solved the crime based purely on thinking about it!", then forward a link to police, expecting them to mop up the details by doing the minor, unimportant job of providing proof and then making arrests.

IMO, speculation is just speculation, anyone can do it. Police don't speculate, they collect actual evidence and investigate it for the purpose of proving beyond a reasonable doubt.

JMO

Once they solve it? It's been 8 years since the murders. TPS only have one officer now working the case. The point of websleuths is healthy discussion such as valid points whereby it's not clear if certain people have been eliminated.

No one has been “cleared”. However, police have said “Other persons that were seen walking in the area on surveillance video have been identified and accounted for.” The only person who has not been identified and accounted for is the night walker.

The police don’t need to say this again every time someone makes a new piece of surveillance video public. They’ve already said it.

Well the police haven't solved it for over 7 years now and bungled the investigation early on. The new pice of surveillance video is significant and important and I'm sure everyone wants to know if those involved with the SUV have been spoken to.

 

[WINDSOR]

(Dropping these in as I notice them—fwiw).

In ITO # 10, Detective Yim cross-references the path of the WM and how he retraced his steps, making cell calls in order to find which cell towers handled the calls in specific places.

In the document he explained that in order for some of the cell companies to do a ‘tower dump’ at the request of police, they require that test calls be made first in the locations. Detective Yim did so—except for one area.

View attachment 612177

View attachment 612179


In the ITOs, they don’t use abbreviations for the addresses. The only address I could find that was about 24 spaces is Forest Heights Boulevard, a street which backs on to the former Sherman home. It looks to me that it’s a single digit, which would place it near Bayview. (A circuitous route, if my guesses are right.)
View attachment 612180
Google image map. Bayview & single-digit FHB homes are at the small pin. I could be wrong, or the WM went father west at some point.

Forgive my naivete, I am not very knowledgeable in the science of cell phones and the systems.

But it appears to me in this ITO the TPS are trying to trace the path of the Walking Man, through cell towers. For this to be an effective method to follow the WM's path, would he not a) have to be carrying a cell phone, and b) the cell phone would have to turned on?

If the TPS did the tower dumps, and discovered the path of the Walking Man's path, then does it not follow the WM had a cell phone that was turned on. To me that is a strange occurrence in itself, that the WM, as the suspected killer would carry a phone on this assignment.

Secondly if the tower can follow the movement of the phone, does it not follow that the phone has some sort of identification number, symbol, characteristic that can identify at least the billing name of the phone owner?

I am aware of cases where a criminal was charged based on on the location of his cell phone at the crime occurred, so it is possible (in the USA at least) to identify a specific phone and a specific owner based on tower dumps.

I understand in some situations that even burner phones are traceable to some extent.

Was the TPS able to track the WM through his cell phone? Has the TPS tried to identify the cell phone owner?

In my theory that the killer(s) were highly knowledgeable and skilled, I would believe they had untraceable cell phones, and I doubt the TPS could locate the owner.

IMO

 

[ldlager]

(Dropping these in as I notice them—fwiw).

In ITO # 10, Detective Yim cross-references the path of the WM and how he retraced his steps, making cell calls in order to find which cell towers handled the calls in specific places.

In the document he explained that in order for some of the cell companies to do a ‘tower dump’ at the request of police, they require that test calls be made first in the locations. Detective Yim did so—except for one area.

View attachment 612177

View attachment 612179


In the ITOs, they don’t use abbreviations for the addresses. The only address I could find that was about 24 spaces is Forest Heights Boulevard, a street which backs on to the former Sherman home. It looks to me that it’s a single digit, which would place it near Bayview. (A circuitous route, if my guesses are right.)
View attachment 612180
Google image map. Bayview & single-digit FHB homes are at the small pin. I could be wrong, or the WM went father west at some point.

Why would Det Yim not make test calls from every location of interest to the police, in order to secure the records from Rogers and Freedom Mobile?

 

[ldlager]

January 2019 ITO: (bolded by me)
In this application I am seeking what is commonly referred to as “tower dumps”. In
particular, I am seeking production orders for transmission data from telecommunication
service providers identifying devices involved in communications transmitted through cell
towers in the vicinity of:

a) Honey and Bernard SHERMAN in the hours leading up to the murders;
b) the unidentified suspected killer walking in the area of 50 Old Colony Road, and
c) 50 Old Colony Road (the location of the murders).

We know the killer or killers were walking in the area of 50 Old Colony. They had to be to get to the Sherman home. They do NOT indicate that they are referring to the WM as the “suspected killer”

 

[dotr]

2022 rbbm

Barry and Honey Sherman murder detectives learn cellular ‘tower dump’ was a bust

A Toronto police homicide detective said the cellular probe has not “borne any fruit” after comparison to 300 known cellphone numbers.

www.thestar.com

“We’ve exhausted all the avenues (of the cellular data),” said Toronto police Det.-Const. Dennis Yim during a recent court appearance. “We’ve done comparisons and analysis and those comparisons and analyses have not borne any fruit.”

2021

Barry and Honey Sherman may have been under ‘surveillance’ a month before their murders, homicide detectives believe

Documents show police sought cellphone data for dozens of ‘persons of interest,’ and confirm Barry Sherman had been ‘restrained at the wrist.’

www.thestar.com

''What is clear from these new documents is that while police interviewed friends, family, work colleagues and staff at the Sherman home in the first few months of the probe — 250 people in total — by the end of the first year the interviews were all but over and the case had become a “data” investigation. Police, led by Yim, were busy gathering telephone numbers and applying to Pringle for permission to gather more information.
While this was going on, one person police had previously interviewed came forward with new information. This is described starkly in one ITO as “new information,” but the pages the Star has obtained from court are completely redacted because police say to reveal that information will harm their case.''

 

[ldlager]

Forgive my naivete, I am not very knowledgeable in the science of cell phones and the systems.

But it appears to me in this ITO the TPS are trying to trace the path of the Walking Man, through cell towers. For this to be an effective method to follow the WM's path, would he not a) have to be carrying a cell phone, and b) the cell phone would have to turned on?

If the TPS did the tower dumps, and discovered the path of the Walking Man's path, then does it not follow the WM had a cell phone that was turned on. To me that is a strange occurrence in itself, that the WM, as the suspected killer would carry a phone on this assignment.

Secondly if the tower can follow the movement of the phone, does it not follow that the phone has some sort of identification number, symbol, characteristic that can identify at least the billing name of the phone owner?

I am aware of cases where a criminal was charged based on on the location of his cell phone at the crime occurred, so it is possible (in the USA at least) to identify a specific phone and a specific owner based on tower dumps.

I understand in some situations that even burner phones are traceable to some extent.

Was the TPS able to track the WM through his cell phone? Has the TPS tried to identify the cell phone owner?

In my theory that the killer(s) were highly knowledgeable and skilled, I would believe they had untraceable cell phones, and I doubt the TPS could locate the owner.

IMO

I do not believe that a cell phone has to be turned n for its signal to be “pinged” to a tower. I have always heard you should leave your phone at home if you don’t want to be traced. Even when it is turned off the battery somehow emits a signal that can be traced. But I am sure others here are more informed than me.
Why does LE need tower data to trace the WM? I understand from other posters here that the WM was captured on video in multiple places on his route, including near the Sherman house. LE has already stated that they only released the bit of video that was clearest, they have lots more I have been lead to understand.,

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I agree. First the family, then KD, and various others seem to believe it's the job of police to share all their investigative efforts so that these other people can solve the crime, independent of police.

I'm not quite sure what the idea is. Once they solve it, are these independent sleuths intending to arrest the perps themselves, charge them and prosecute them at trial? Or is the goal to first publish "I/We solved the crime based purely on thinking about it!", then forward a link to police, expecting them to mop up the details by doing the minor, unimportant job of providing proof and then making arrests.

IMO, speculation is just speculation, anyone can do it. Police don't speculate, they collect actual evidence and investigate it for the purpose of proving beyond a reasonable doubt.

JMO

This is a snip from a previous post of yours:

Well, I'll confess: I'm a detective from TPS, trying to steer this vital crime-solving forum in the right direction, to find out the truth of what really happened, because it's clearly beyond us incompetent police. It's up to the media and random members of the public with too much time on their hands.

We’re just discussing this interesting case and investigation here. I know a few members here, and none of is are under the illusion that we’re solving a case in place of police work.

My impression of KD is that he’s privy to a lot of the investigation that he reports on, but he also doesn’t mistake himself for an officer or a lawyer for that matter. But his job requires skills from both of those professions. He has made breakthrough reporting in this case that has altered the course of the investigation, imo.

You said that you’re a detective, and we’ve had other verified detectives participate in threads and they’ve shared their knowledge with us. Especially with those of us who participate in searches open to the public and other parts of WS where they put in a lot of work into identifying UIDs.

Some people do crosswords, others search through dry court documents or transcripts that add more background information on news stories they find interesting… Or just like to discuss interesting crime cases—I think for the most part that’s what we’re doing here, imo.

 

[Colleen Donnelly]

But it appears to me in this ITO the TPS are trying to trace the path of the Walking Man, through cell towers. For this to be an effective method to follow the WM's path, would he not a) have to be carrying a cell phone, and b) the cell phone would have to turned on?

In order for the cell to be pinged by the closest cell tower then yes it would have to be turned on.

In my theory that the killer(s) were highly knowledgeable and skilled, I would believe they had untraceable cell phones, and I doubt the TPS could locate the owner.

I agree that they are not going to be able to trace them through cell data. I am convinced though that the WM is connected to the murder of Honey and Barry.

Whether he was a solo actor I wonder. There had to have been some sort of communication device if there were 2 people involved. It wouldn't have needed to be something technically sophisticated. Something simple like a walkie talkie with range of a couple kilometres, or even a handheld game could keep 2 people informed.

I do not believe that a cell phone has to be turned n for its signal to be “pinged” to a tower. I have always heard you should leave your phone at home if you don’t want to be traced. Even when it is turned off the battery somehow emits a signal that can be traced. But I am sure others here are more informed than me.

A cell phone that is turned off is not transmitting data to a cell tower.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Forgive my naivete, I am not very knowledgeable in the science of cell phones and the systems.

But it appears to me in this ITO the TPS are trying to trace the path of the Walking Man, through cell towers. For this to be an effective method to follow the WM's path, would he not a) have to be carrying a cell phone, and b) the cell phone would have to turned on?

If the TPS did the tower dumps, and discovered the path of the Walking Man's path, then does it not follow the WM had a cell phone that was turned on. To me that is a strange occurrence in itself, that the WM, as the suspected killer would carry a phone on this assignment.

Secondly if the tower can follow the movement of the phone, does it not follow that the phone has some sort of identification number, symbol, characteristic that can identify at least the billing name of the phone owner?

I am aware of cases where a criminal was charged based on on the location of his cell phone at the crime occurred, so it is possible (in the USA at least) to identify a specific phone and a specific owner based on tower dumps.

I understand in some situations that even burner phones are traceable to some extent.

Was the TPS able to track the WM through his cell phone? Has the TPS tried to identify the cell phone owner?

In my theory that the killer(s) were highly knowledgeable and skilled, I would believe they had untraceable cell phones, and I doubt the TPS could locate the owner.

IMO

You’re right and I don’t think the WM had a traceable electronic device on him, as far as we know. I was more surprised he possibly went close to Bayview (if I’m correct about the address.) Why the circuitous route? And why didn’t Detective Yim do a test call there?

Detective Yim chose a few specific dates looking at cell tracking and data. I’m wondering if people involved in the murders were in the area at those times previous to December 13th. Kind of similar to Kohberger in the Idaho murders.

In the Long Island murders, the alleged killer used a burner phone, but made the error of sometimes having his own traceable phone near it, and near his work and home, iirc.

 

[dotr]

A signal to indicate that the coast was clear, or that the murders were completed, or about to begin, can be simply conveyed to those watching for it.
A kick of the right foot in snow, and the slightest turn of the head. speculation, imo.

The video shows the individual walking with an unusual gait in his right leg Photo by Toronto Police Service

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[UnsolvedCrimes]

I was watching a Podcast a few days ago, unrelated to the Sherman murders, and I believe I know why and possibly the people responsible. I dont have the actual killers name, but after watching a podcast it all points to a group.

None of the kids did the deed.

I want to hear people's opinion regarding what group could be responsible.

 

[fadedglitter]

I was watching a Podcast a few days ago, unrelated to the Sherman murders, and I believe I know why and possibly the people responsible. I dont have the actual killers name, but after watching a podcast it all points to a group.

None of the kids did the deed.

I want to hear people's opinion regarding what group could be responsible.

I don’t think many people here believe it was done by a “group”.

I agree with you that none of the kids did it, but I’m in the minority here.

 

[Colleen Donnelly]

None of the kids did the deed.

I want to hear people's opinion regarding what group could be responsible.

I agree that none of the Sherman children killed their parents.

I don't think it was a group but am curious about this group you speak of.

 

[Cedars]

I was watching a Podcast a few days ago, unrelated to the Sherman murders, and I believe I know why and possibly the people responsible. I dont have the actual killers name, but after watching a podcast it all points to a group.

Is this like a crossword puzzle? Then you need to say how many letters and give a clue.

 

[Colleen Donnelly]

Is this like a crossword puzzle? Then you need to say how many letters and give a clue.

Merci beaucoup! I needed a good belly laugh! lolol

 

[UnsolvedCrimes]

Merci beaucoup! I needed a good belly laugh! lolol

I'm interested in what people think. I wanted to hear thoughte before I gave my theory.