Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[otto]

The RCMP say the boat was found via helicopter. It sure doesn't sound like surveillance photos were used.

"On Friday afternoon, RCMP officers searching from a helicopter, located a damaged aluminum boat on the shore of the Nelson River."

RCMP officers locate damaged boat on Nelson River shore | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

The boat was found by helicopter, and it was found near in an area that had last been searched by air three our four days earlier. Were photos taken? Probably.

 

[sprucetip]

Exactly. When I hear about a random murder, nothing changes. Random murders happen everywhere. When I heard that it was tourists, that made a big difference.

However, it is not the fault of the RCMP that it took 3 days to identify the first 2 victims, and 5 days to identify the 3rd victim. It took 8 days to identify the suspects, which was only possible after connecting the Rav4 to the suspects and the 3rd victim.

Random murders do not happen in this area. That's the difference.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I can't disagree with you strongly enough, in fact it troubles me that you'd feel they did a 'terrible job'. You are basing your thought the bodies were 'only found because of civilians' on media embellishments. The RCMP are NOT "keystone cops" - would you have rather hypothetically the RCMP did absolutely nothing from day 1 and let the 'civilians' figure out why 3 people were killed, who their killers were, and where they were on the run to?

Perhaps 'terrible job' was a bit of an overstatement.

But come on. These kids drove down to a major river and then it took an awful long time to find them a few kms downstream on that river. There was all kinds of evidence, apparently. A sleeping bag. Personal items. A boat. Evidence they completely overlooked until a civilian pointed them in the right direction.

And then, of course, there's the way they jeopardized public safety by not disclosing the nature of the murders in a more timely manner.

 

[10ofRods]

What would be the significance of using a metal box instead of a bag? Better preservation of remains? Genuinely curious.

I would think that better preservation would be the reason especially in cases of advanced decomposition. But another reason would be preservation of some context (rotted clothing, soil, insects).

They may want to preserve the relationship of the skeletal parts and some underlying soil to each other. The items inside the box almost certainly would still be wrapped for preservation purposes, but their context to each other maintained within the box.

This may be occurring partly because the actual medical examination will occur in Winnipeg. Presumably, there was someone there from that team to photograph (or perhaps, RCMP-Manitoba used their own photographer, but it would be better to have an ME on site). Since the site is difficult to revisit, they may be taking relevant elements of the site to the ME's autopsy room. A forensic conservator may have directed the process.

Using a metal box is unusual, I'd say.

 

[ldlager]

It’s possible they’ve been both sitting there for a long time and impacted by the fire. I just don’t think the go to conclusion should be police incompetence without further information. That’s a lot of deep corrosion on there that to an expert may be consistent with oxidation over time, rather than oxidation by intense heat over hours.

The odds of old corroded keys happening to be lying in the middle of wilderness near Gillam Manitoba in the same place as the vehicle fire seems unbelieveably low. Common sense would indicate that the keys were in the vehicle, and therefore it would seem likely that they represent potential evidence that the RCMP would normally have wanted to remove and examine. I didn't make the initial post so I can't comment on whether the poster feels the RCMP was incompetent in this instance. But the keys almost certainly had to have arrived in the vehicle IMO.

 

[ldlager]

Someone could have planted them there after the fact: a freelancer or local trying to create a mystery.

Like Honey Sherman and the earring.......

 

[scapa]

It's stunning. People are criticizing the cops for their tireless and professional efforts to locate a couple needles in ten thousand haystacks.

Yep. I get that the public wanted this to end sooner, and wanted the suspects caught alive for a variety of reasons. But this was a cross-Canada search involving suspects who were originally regarded as possible victims (in MSM, at least), with a substantial head-start on authorities and who for the most part avoided areas where they were likely to meet checkpoints, etc., and who then ended up in terrain that is notoriously challenging to navigate and difficult to search, all the while having to work with complex logistics and coordination with numerous local, regional and national partners.

It seems to me that the mandate of the search was 1) to prevent further harm and 2) locate the suspects. Both of those were fulfilled. To criticize the RCMP for not doing it quicker, and/or not locating them alive takes little account of the challenges faced. To applaud "civilians" for "doing their job for them" is to acknowledge the job done (invalidating the original critique) and ignores the IMO laudable efforts of the RCMP to recruit the public as helpers in this search, to provide regular updates, and to work to mitigate collateral harm within the communities they were embedded in.

I expect they will regard this as a learning experience, and develop protocols in order to expedite other cases like it -- if there ever are any. But it seems odd to blast the RCMP for not handling better a novel and incredibly complex investigation that was, at the end, successful in preventing further harm and recovering the suspects. Such general critiques, IMO, show a limited grasp of police work and cause-effect logic.

 

[Satchie]

It's stunning. People are criticizing the cops for their tireless and professional efforts to locate a couple needles in ten thousand haystacks.

I wish people would use their energy more productively. Like the suspects: there's an outdoor leadership training centre close to their home, they teach wilderness skills, challenging sports like sea-kayaking and mountaineering. Something real, where opinion doesn't matter, but skill does.

 

[dameagatha]

They did not get very far at all. If they put the boat in the water near Sundance, they travelled 8km by water, they must have gone to shore prior to the rapids and then pushed the boat into the water to crash through the rapids.

They made it 1km (0.6M) inland and they died.

The boat may not be connected to Kam & Bryer. Locals say there are many ruined boats on Nelson River banks. The initial search area centering on the Rav was enormous. The color of the boat seen Friday would easily blend in with it’s surroundings depending on time of day and angle of observation.

 

[dameagatha]

Well they did. I have spoken to two people who saw the keys with their own eyes several days after the car and other evidence was removed from the scene. The globe and mail took the image themselves. The keys may not be crucial to the case but they were clearly with KM and BS at some point so should be considered evidence. For all we know they may link to another murder

I remember the photograph.

 

[Kubirai]

One of them was Gillam’s only taxi driver, Amar Sahota, who believes he talked to one of them on the afternoon of Monday, July 22.

Mr Sahota says he knows 95 per cent of the clients who call for a cab in the town of 500 where he has worked for 13 years.

“But this man called and he didn’t use my name, he was a stranger, and he wanted a ride to (an indigenous settlement 30km north of Gillam called) Bird,” Mr Sahota told News Corp Australia.

“I told him I wouldn’t because my small car can’t go on those rough dirt roads, and he hung up on me. The next day when we heard about the boys being around here, I thought it was them. I thought I was very lucky because maybe I would have been one of their victims.”

Mr Sahota reported the encounter to a police phone hotline, but has yet to hear back.

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

RCMP should trace this call, because it wasn't KM or BS who called for a cab from Gillam to Bird.

It was either a male who needed to visit Bird for legitimate reason, or it was an accomplice of KM/BS who was asked to meet them at Bird.

If that hunch is right, he may have arranged the boat.

 

[JuneBug67]

Random murders do not happen in this area. That's the difference.

I think that probably contributed to the police not immediately concluding it was a random murder. I can see them hesitating to ignite alarm immediately without further information. It may seem simple in retrospect, but I’m guessing “suspicious deaths” felt prudent at the time.

 

[dameagatha]

This map by INSIDER shows key locations they took on their still-mysterious journey through the wilds, from one side of the country to the other....
This map shows the extreme journey 2 teen murder suspects took across 4,000 miles of Canada before being found by a river

Horrible map. They need to get in touch with Otto. Or Otto with them.

 

[scrappinkat]

To me it looks like the keys have been in a fire

I agree. They appear to be Toyota keys, I believe it did say they were found in the pile of ashes. They would have been easy to overlook if they were under the ash, and could have become exposed due to wind and rain in the days after.

 

[otto]

Totally disagree. I am 650km away from the murders and all people do is drive up and down that highway. Distance is irrelevant. The murderers could have been in Whitehorse early on July 15. We didn't hear anything until the next day. If there was a warning from the RCMP, people would have taken notice and perhaps acted a bit more cautiously. Perhaps LD would have done that. Maybe he was being a good samaritan and helping the murderers with their broken down truck. He might have thought twice about this if he knew killers were on the loose in the area. Just that knowledge that someone really bad is out there, possibly along the highway somewhere, could have made a difference.

I think people are missing that despite the distances, this is a really connected area. You're either going up the Alaska (or Cassiar) highways or going down. That alone connects people. We hear about things happening down the highway, most people are very familiar with the whole highway as we drive it regularly. It's an area where almost everyone looks out for each other because of the remoteness in areas so when something bad happens, it's memorable and catches your attention.

What sort of warning would you expect?

Media reported on July 16 that the RCMP Major Crime Unit was investigating two suspicious deaths on the Alaska Hwy. Canadians know what that means, and tourists do have a responsibility to be familiar with the country they are visiting.

Information about the suspicious deaths (meaning murders) was available to Dr Leonard Dyck on July 16. He was killed near Dease Lake on July 19. If he thought he was in danger, he would not have been there. Suspicious deaths along a northern BC highway never means that everyone across BC or Canada should be worried.

 

[webbie]

A boat that was probably there for at least 10 days.

No, that's precisely because the boat was not there on previous surveillance that they zeroed in on it.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Austin Grabish of CBC News just said the RCMP have said once the autopsies are completed the results will be released. RCMP also said results may not necessarily be today.

Good...I doubt it will be today but hopefully tomorrow.

Perhaps 'terrible job' was a bit of an overstatement.

But come on. These kids drove down to a major river and then it took an awful long time to find them a few kms downstream on that river. There was all kinds of evidence, apparently. A sleeping bag. Personal items. A boat. Evidence they completely overlooked until a civilian pointed them in the right direction.

And then, of course, there's the way they jeopardized public safety by not disclosing the nature of the murders in a more timely manner.

Look up the Gerry Largay case...I think you aren't appreciating how difficult it is to detect much of anything in a wilderness area.

 

[otto]

Random murders do not happen in this area. That's the difference.

Sure they do. This one comes to mind, as it was a similar situation.

Wells Gray Provincial Park murders - Wikipedia

 

[otto]

Horrible map. They need to get in touch with Otto. Or Otto with them.

Thanks! I was thinking the same thing - it includes all sorts of unrelated info.

 

[Jealoushe]

Let's not forget they were basically searching a massive bog filled with awful flying insects that try to eat you alive. I would like to see anyone but the RCMP withstand those searches for so long.