Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

[NJSleuth91]

We don't know what the story is with Bryer's mom being afraid of him. We know that she sought court orders to prevent her ex-husband from having contact with Bryer, and that she was afraid of Bryer.

Some children at the age of 2 swear, others say "pardon me." What sort of 2 year old was Bryer?

There have been no accounts so far of what he was like at 2. I believe the earliest account was from an elementary school classmate that said he was an "angry kid." However, in the context of what we know about his family's home life, it's not hard to see why. When anger is normalized and when a kid doesn't have a safe and stable environment, they're going to be angry. The nature vs. nurture debate is hard to figure out but considering we can see some of the exact same behavior patterns between Bryer and his dad, I personally feel like they were probably learned behaviors. JMO.

Honestly this case is reminding me a lot of the show The Wire (which is like a grad level thesis on the roots of societal violence in TV show form)...anyone else?

 

[scrappinkat]

So was it the same day LD was found a sketch was produced and distributed to the media? This sketch could have been taken from his drivers license photo or school ID badge for all we know. There could have been some way that LE was able to identify LD and notify the family ahead of releasing the sketch to the public.

When the police filed paperwork of second degree murder against Kam and Bryer they referred to Leonard Dyck as John Doe. I think it’s pretty safe to say they weren’t aware of his identity.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I love that he was such a nerd for botany. The pic of him with the seaweed is great. Most people would be like ew seaweed. But he was probably super excited to see it and share his knowledge.

Man, I don’t even know the guy and I’m super sad at what happened to him. I can’t imagine what his family is going thru.

Anyone who can get that enthusiastic over seaweed was probably a great guy to hang out with. A real appreciation for the things in life that others see as insignificant.

 

[MistyWaters]

If the first sign of problems was 11, 12, 13, then that must be when he felt neglected. His mom remarried and gave Bryer a sibling. I wonder if that coincides with his disconnection with family.

Bryer

• 2000 born
• 2005 divorce
• 2008 no unsupervised contact with father
• 2011 shows signs of compartmentalizing friends and family
• 2019 graduated high school
• 2019 murdered 3 people

Bryer has a sibling?

It was AS who stated he had no contact with his son between the ages of 8 and 16. He didn’t say “unsupervised” or not, nor what was the reason.

 

[scrappinkat]

But apparently Bryer didn’t live at his mom’s house once AS began having contact with him at age 16. He lived with his grandmother.

I can look for a link if you like.

Yes he moved in with the grandmother at 16, after returning to Port Alberni from trying to live with his father.

I know more than a few kids that can’t wait until they turn 16, they believe that’s when they will be able to leave home and not be forced to go back.

 

[Esprite]

I really hope that the family members of Bryer and Kam are receiving the necessary support to make it through this terrible time.

 

[scrappinkat]

Did LE discover LD's identity possibly a day earlier than reported and that's why there was a publication ban for one day in the hopes that KM and BS would be found before being listed as suspects in the murder?

No. The publication ban was most likely so they would have time to ID who owned the car and notify family.

 

[otto]

When the police filed paperwork of second degree murder against Kam and Bryer they referred to Leonard Dyck as John Doe. I think it’s pretty safe to say they weren’t aware of his identity.

It's likely that they wanted to issue an arrest warrant and it was taking time to notify next of kin.

 

[scrappinkat]

If the first sign of problems was 11, 12, 13, then that must be when he felt neglected. His mom remarried and gave Bryer a sibling. I wonder if that coincides with his disconnection with family.

That’s the time frame the neighbour gave, but that might only be because she moved there at that time, or some other reason - not necessarily because Bryer wasn’t already having a crappy home life. Was the sibling a new one from his mother or was the sibling an existing child of the new man?

 

[JudgeJudi]

My overriding impression of BS is that he had a lonely childhood once his parents marriage was over and he went to live with his mother. He ultimately ran away from home and went to live with his grandmother. He looked happy in the few photos I’ve seen of him with AS but I haven’t seen any with his mother, but we can’t draw any conclusions from that. His story reminds me of the old Cherokee parable “Two Wolves”.

An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...

"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.

"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.

"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old chief simply replied,
"The one you feed."

Two Wolves - A Cherokee Parable : Pearls Of Wisdom

 

[derbywinner]

Bryer had already worked construction with his dad two years earlier.

It's possible it was planned as a murder trip. It's possible they actually went up there looking for work and it just turned into a murder trip -- now that we know there were two guns, it's less likely, but still possible. It's possible it was planned as robberies (greater chance of getting away with it in a remote area where nobody knows you) and ended up being murder. It's possible it was planned as a suicide pact and then became "the world rejected us so let's take some people out on our way out."

It's possible they left abruptly, possibly after one or both being fired from Walmart (not quitting), possibly after Bryer pretended to graduate high school but actually didn't, angry at the world, feeling alienated by society, emotionally numb from years of untreated severe depression, without any clear plan but with guns just in case because they were angry at the world, possibly even with drugs/alcohol (two teenagers out on their own for the first time...I'd bet on it), basically just driving as far away as they could from the town and families they felt oppressed by, in a sort of fog. And whatever they talked about on the long drive there, just the two of them with their rage issues and violent impulses, determined what happened next. And after the rage wore off, as it often does, they realized just what they had done, panicked, made the idiot decision to steal a car which led to another innocent person's death, ran as far away as they could, were completely terrified according to witnesses before they got into the wilderness so you can imagine how they were after, realized there was no way out of this and "well, we already sort of wanted to kill ourselves anyway, so I guess this is it."

Currently we don't have enough evidence to say which of these scenarios is the correct one. My money right now is on the last one, but I could be wrong. JMO.

There aren't lots of jobs in AB the patch crashed. Houses in AB are selling about $200k less than 2 years ago. Probably far more attainable jobs in BC then doing a road trip to find them. I like what you are thinking but do you think any of their actions were just random. A domino affect. Somewhere they screwed up and went past the point of no return.

 

[Arizona 123]

I was wondering if there are any arguments against the following assumption: the three victims were robbed. I can't think of any plausible alternatives, but if anyone has any, I'd love to hear them.

My reasoning is that, if they were not robbed, the police would have found their IDs almost immediately, instead of the days it took. So, their IDs were missing (except for C's hidden passport).

I'm not saying that robbery was the motive, just that it seems to have been done.

And speaking of robberies - murder on Vancouver Island, taking the vehicle, then ditching it, seems like a fairly rare occurance, from what I can see. So, I find it interesting that a case of it apparently occured just a couple of days before K&S's apparently sudden departure from Port Alberni. The victim's name was Martin Payne.
RCMP in British Columbia - Persons of interest identified in the murder of Martin Payne

I know that the two escapees from the prison in that area seem like a better fit, based on timing, plus where the victim's truck was found relative to where they were captured. However, the police seem quite interested in tracing that backpack, and also seem quite sure that, although they say they have two persons of interest in the case, there is no danger to the public. That fits the two recaptured prisoners, but also K&S.
Would two just-escaped convicts have a backpack from a deluxe tour operator?
Escaped Vancouver Island prisoners recaptured in Esquimalt: RCMP

 

[derbywinner]

I was wondering if there are any arguments against the following assumption: the three victims were robbed. I can't think of any plausible alternatives, but if anyone has any, I'd love to hear them.

My reasoning is that, if they were not robbed, the police would have found their IDs almost immediately, instead of the days it took. So, their IDs were missing (except for C's hidden passport).

I'm not saying that robbery was the motive, just that it seems to have been done.

And speaking of robberies - murder on Vancouver Island, taking the vehicle, then ditching it, seems like a fairly rare occurance, from what I can see. So, I find it interesting that a case of it apparently occured just a couple of days before K&S's apparently sudden departure from Port Alberni. The victim's name was Martin Payne.
RCMP in British Columbia - Persons of interest identified in the murder of Martin Payne

I know that the two escapees from the prison in that area seem like a better fit, based on timing, plus where the victim's truck was found relative to where they were captured. However, the police seem quite interested in tracing that backpack, and also seem quite sure that, although they say they have two persons of interest in the case, there is no danger to the public. That fits the two recaptured prisoners, but also K&S.
Would two just-escaped convicts have a backpack from a deluxe tour operator?
Escaped Vancouver Island prisoners recaptured in Esquimalt: RCMP

We're still looking for 2 guys from Logan Lake. RCMP very quiet about those guys. Thoughts on them. Not much said because hypothetically gang affiliated.

 

[NJSleuth91]

There aren't lots of jobs in AB the patch crashed. Houses in AB are selling about $200k less than 2 years ago. Probably far more attainable jobs in BC then doing a road trip to find them. I like what you are thinking but do you think any of their actions were just random. A domino affect. Somewhere they screwed up and went past the point of no return.

Yes that's kind of what I was getting at with my theory. Like, they didn't have a clear plan, they weren't thinking clearly at all, they were in kind of this fog of rage and depression and their only plan initially was to get as far away as possible from Port Alberni and from their families. Maybe with some vague ideas of suicide or violence, which is why they brought the guns. I don't think that's even an unusual thing for teenagers to do, minus the murder part.

 

[derbywinner]

Yes that's kind of what I was getting at with my theory. Like, they didn't have a clear plan, they weren't thinking clearly at all, they were in kind of this fog of rage and depression and their only plan initially was to get as far away as possible from Port Alberni and from their families. Maybe with some vague ideas of suicide or violence, which is why they brought the guns. I don't think that's even an unusual thing for teenagers to do, minus the murder part.

Given the means; the truck and camper and cash with would you just start killing. Lots of small town BC young people out there trying to get away from their crappy life. They go on an adventure and see things and say "hey we're getting out of here". I plan to leave Vancouver in the next 6 months but not going to kill people in the process.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Given the means; the truck and camper and cash with would you just start killing. Lots of small town BC young people out there trying to get away from their crappy life. They go on an adventure and see things and say "hey we're getting out of here". ****

I mean, like "I hate my hometown, screw this, let's get out of here" is such a trope in punk music that people make fun of it. It's not exactly an unusual thing for two troubled young people to get angry at their town/parents/the world, abruptly drop everything and take off on the road with no clear destination in mind, lie to their parents about where they're going, maybe with some "dangerous" things (ie. the guns, and maybe drugs and alcohol) because why not, screw the world. Remember, they were teenagers -- impulsive and highly emotionally driven.

Now these guys I highly suspect had been in incredible amounts of emotional pain for years, to the point that it likely clouded their ability to feel much of anything (long-term severe depression can numb the emotions...ie. Bryer's "dead eyes" as a teenager vs. looking happy and alive as a kid), to empathize with others (indicated by many studies on depression), and to make decisions and think long-term. Studies indicate that depression actually increases the risk of violent behavior (example: Depression and violence: a Swedish population study), likely for all of these reasons. So it was probably a lot more, emotionally, than just a "screw our parents" thing. And especially considering it was just both of them and their untreated mental illness, emotional dysregulation, and emotionally over-dependent "us against the world" bond with each other, together for hours and hours of driving, no external distractions to intervene, just the two of them falling even deeper into this rage/depression spiral with nobody for hundreds of miles around to stop them.

I don't know if they were specifically thinking of violence or suicide but I think it was maybe a vaguely formed idea in the back of their minds. Human psychology is a very interesting thing. Sometimes people do things and have no idea consciously of why they do them. Like for example I've heard of people suddenly decluttering and giving away a bunch of their belongings and then only later realizing that they did so because they were suicidal. I think it could have been something like that. Because the way they were acting on the run, and the baffling decisions they made, just doesn't indicate to me that they set out definitely planning to do this. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but that's just not what I'm seeing.

I plan to leave Vancouver in the next 6 months but not going to kill people in the process.

Well I would certainly hope not!! Murder: not even once.

 

[Arizona 123]

One of the things perplexing me, that I've not seen mentioned, is the Cold Lake Stuck-in-the-mud happened on the same day as the surveillance video from the store in Meadow Lake.

Ever been stuck in the mud? You tend to get muddy. Very muddy. Yet, I can see no sign of mud on the two suspects in the video. Not one bit. This is one of the many things that has struck me as odd.

Is it acceptable to link a youtube video if it's from a law enforcement agency's (RCMP) channel? I can't find a source for the vid that isn't youtube (the news stories I can find are just embedding this).

 

[mrjitty]

I mean, like "I hate my hometown, screw this, let's get out of here" is such a trope in punk music that people make fun of it. It's not exactly an unusual thing for two troubled young people to get angry at their town/parents/the world, abruptly drop everything and take off on the road with no clear destination in mind, lie to their parents about where they're going, maybe with some "dangerous" things (ie. the guns, and maybe drugs and alcohol) because why not, screw the world. Remember, they were teenagers -- impulsive and highly emotionally driven.

RSBM

Right. Something that is often overlooked in these cases is the opportunistic nature of the offending.

As you say, its a common trope - they get away on the road, anonymous, with no controls or responsibilities. None of their usual support structures.

Several young lads I came up with would load up on booze, jump in their cars and cruise for parties and fights every weekend. The same nihilistic behaviour common with so many young men. Beatings, brawls and sexual assaults was what these charming guys were into.

Now because no one died, no one is puzzling over their relationships with their mothers, what video games they played, or lack of a strong authority figure.

But one incident in particular which became an urban legend, the victim easily could have died having been thrown through a window. Within a few years they grew out of this stuff. Another fact that any District Court judge is well aware of in sentencing these cases

Now our charming gentleman had no particular official pact to go out and try to do some murders. Rather they were abusive individuals who discovered a taste for it during their exploits and their relative freedom at the weekends. Especially they discovered they were powerful young men and no one could easily stop them.

So yeah - there are 100s of stories of young men on the prowl who end up doing a murder one night.

It's one of the older tragedies and I don't see a special meaning in it.

Of course I am not shocked to discover trouble in their family lives because ordinarily, kids from loving, functional families, don't go on the prowl with weapons, looking to hurt people. Yet the boys I knew were from OK middle class families with no abusive stuff and there was just not much you could really put your finger on as to why they were so excited to beat the daylights out of other boys they could catch up with. The group dynamic was maybe the main part of it.

Anthony Burgess's A Clock Work Orange from all the way back in 1962 pondered these very questions. I don't see anymore of an answer in 2019 than I saw in 1986

 

[mrjitty]

Sometimes people do things and have no idea consciously of why they do them. Like for example I've heard of people suddenly decluttering and giving away a bunch of their belongings and then only later realizing that they did so because they were suicidal. I think it could have been something like that. Because the way they were acting on the run, and the baffling decisions they made, just doesn't indicate to me that they set out definitely planning to do this. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but that's just not what I'm seeing.

RSBM

Exactly right - and group offending is a special category in terms of dynamics and extreme brutality compared to solo violence.

One night in my hometown, a group of lads so badly beat a sportstar in the pub carpark that he nearly died. Nice middle class lads. You had an ordinary evening at the pub, and a relatively common place occurrence of lads getting drunk, getting macho, looking for trouble, looking to act out, looking to prove how hard they were.

So some shoving and a few punches unpredictably escalates into an absolutely savage group beating that you would not believe you could survive.

Now these nice middle class boys did not plan to murder anyone that evening.

Yet, their group dynamic, alcohol, and opportunity opened the door to something so evil that i cannot believe any of them, if alone, would have contemplated it.

 

[JuneBug67]

Yes, I found a lot of those pics of him and his dad together when he was little the same: sad and sweet. One thing that has struck me about the pictures of Bryer when he was little is he really does look like a normal kid. I know we've talked a lot about Bryer being kind of unsettling-looking/creepy-looking as a teen, but there's really no hint of that when he was younger.

It’s amazing what can come across in what seems like an innocuous photo. I remember the first photos we saw of the suspects when they were still considered missing - I got an immediate bad vibe off of Bryer’s. I actually had the thought “Hey, not nice people can go missing/be victims too.”. Kinda lowballed it there with the “not nice”.