Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #17

[Bluedaisy100]

There's a lot of truth in all these different scenarios. Most of them seem possible even if they are at odds with other scenarios that also seem possible. Normal rationality doesn't seem to apply. For myself I think they knew the beginning and the end of their journey. What came in the middle was either planned in a half assed way or not at all. All these families, including Kam and Bryer's, would feel anger over the human and material waste. So much potential thrown away for no clear reason. That's what I don't get. They victimized their own families as well, leaving them with a stigma of being at fault for this whole mess.

 

[sandbar]

There's a lot of truth in all these different scenarios. Most of them seem possible even if they are at odds with other scenarios that also seem possible. Normal rationality doesn't seem to apply. For myself I think they knew the beginning and the end of their journey. What came in the middle was either planned in a half assed way or not at all. All these families, including Kam and Bryer's, would feel anger over the human and material waste. So much potential thrown away for no clear reason. That's what I don't get. They victimized their own families as well, leaving them with a stigma of being at fault for this whole mess.

Beautiful, thoughful post. Thanks.

"Most of them seem possible even if they are at odds with other scenarios that also seem possible"

So true!

 

[sandbar]

dbm

 

[MistyWaters]

Would they really be that dumb, though? And would they really do no research on the area, if their lives depended on it? And would they really think that the search for triple murderers would be limited to one province? I feel like anyone who has even so much as watched any type of crime show ever, knows that wouldn't be true. And would they really think, as people who lived in a small-ish town their entire lives, that two 6'4"+ teenagers could just show up in a small town with vague backstories and gossip wouldn't go around? I don't think they were that stupid, even though they weren't smart.

Plus, they must have seen that Lucas and Chynna's murders got a ton of coverage. I remember even seeing it on the news at the laundromat right after it happened, and I'm not even in the same country.

Vancouver Island is far more populated than the northern provinces so there’s really no comparison to the north and Port Alberni. Until one has travelled north it’s impossible to describe the difference but definitely their world does not revolve around the Internet in the same way as it’s creeped into daily life elsewhere.

Other than maybe population, a street map, a few businesses (several of which may be long closed but google doesn’t know it), there’s really no way to conduct meaningful research online of smaller Canadian towns, not only in the north. It’s actually a huge misperception as well, that everything about everything can be found online. For example no google search would’ve forewarned the two there was a check stop for alcohol at Split Lake if they’d looked. Winter roads, definitely none around Port Alberni. It’s just up the coast from Victoria, known as the #1 best climate in Canada.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Vancouver Island is far more populated than the northern provinces so there’s really no comparison to the north and Port Alberni. Until one has travelled north it’s impossible to describe the difference but definitely their world does not revolve around the Internet in the same way as it’s creeped into daily life elsewhere.

Other than maybe population, a street map, a few businesses (several of which may be long closed but google doesn’t know it), there’s really no way to conduct meaningful research online. That’s actually a huge misperception as well, that everything about everything can be found online. For example no google search would’ve forewarned the two there was a check stop for alcohol at Split Lake if they’d looked. Winter roads, definitely none around Port Alberni. It’s just up the coast from Victoria, known as the #1 best climate in Canada.

I'm sure you can find information about all this stuff online. Or if it isn't available, make a thread on a forum somewhere and ask. Maybe it wouldn't have warned about that particular checkpoint, but I'm sure there would have been something about some reservations being dry. There was literally an entire TV series about winter roads (Ice Road Truckers) so it's not exactly an esoteric concept.

 

[10ofRods]

There's a lot of truth in all these different scenarios. Most of them seem possible even if they are at odds with other scenarios that also seem possible. Normal rationality doesn't seem to apply. For myself I think they knew the beginning and the end of their journey. What came in the middle was either planned in a half assed way or not at all. All these families, including Kam and Bryer's, would feel anger over the human and material waste. So much potential thrown away for no clear reason. That's what I don't get. They victimized their own families as well, leaving them with a stigma of being at fault for this whole mess.

But entirely possible they never thought of it that way (or gave it a thought). A lot of their behavior was, frankly, still quite juvenile, MOO.

I did a bunch of stupid stuff at 18-19 that endangered my life (although I never thought about it - I thought traveling around alone at night in big cities was perfectly fine for a young woman with no street smarts whatsoever and I was so friendly!) My parents would have been SO upset if something had happened - but I was more about figuring out ways to get around their disapproval than I was about protecting them from my errant ways.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think they thought roaming around the wilderness and shooting people would be cool. And then they found out they weren't in a video game. A Websleuther, @10ofRods? suggested they were in, more of an ad hoc state, making plans as they go. And that makes sense to me.

They covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. And to me that requires assistance of some kind, especially if we believe that BS didn't/couldn't/wouldn't drive, like maybe caffiene, energy drinks, junk food, adrenalin, no sleep, or whatever, a combo of all. None of that leads to good discisions...

It’s been a cold summer across the prairies this year. For example about the time they were in Meadow Lake the nighttime temp was only about 10C or 50F. In addition to the chilly nights, two guys about 6’4” sleeping in a RAV4 (if they didn’t have a tent and heater with them) I can’t even imagine that picture.

Their inconvenience was small potatoes though, remembering the three innocent victims who’s lives they allegedly snuffed out.

 

[Zella]

In addition to the chilly nights, two guys about 6’4” sleeping in a RAV4 (if they didn’t have a tent and heater with them) I can’t even imagine that picture.

SBM

I've wondered that about the camper too. I've always thought 2 guys that tall crammed in a camper would be pretty claustrophobic and uncomfortable. MOO

 

[NJSleuth91]

But entirely possible they never thought of it that way (or gave it a thought). A lot of their behavior was, frankly, still quite juvenile, MOO.

I think both of them were really immature for their age. They had a lot of growing up to do.

I did a bunch of stupid stuff at 18-19 that endangered my life (although I never thought about it - I thought traveling around alone at night in big cities was perfectly fine for a young woman with no street smarts whatsoever and I was so friendly!) My parents would have been SO upset if something had happened - but I was more about figuring out ways to get around their disapproval than I was about protecting them from my errant ways.

Same (actually there's a thread on Websleuths about "risky stuff you do" where I talked about some of that). I feel like murder is sort of a different thing though since it's literally designed to hurt people. But if they did say goodbye to their families, I think they probably at least realized at some point how much this would hurt their families, and maybe felt guilty about it. JMO.

 

[Arizona 123]

Yes, law enforcement confirmed they were stuck in the mud at Clear Lake and someone helped them out.

Cold Lake residents shaken after B.C. murder suspects spotted in Alberta town

https://lakelandconnect.net/2019/07...nd-kam-mcleod-spotted-in-cold-lake-on-sunday/

Thank you. Okay, they really did get stuck in the mud, confirmed. So, what's left is they cleaned themselves up - and my hunch is, probably the car, too. I looked, there are car washes in Cold Lake and Meadow Lake.

Yeah, the RCMP confirmed the Cold Lake incident: Cold Lake residents shaken after B.C. murder suspects spotted in Alberta town

There isn't much along the highway between Cold Lake and Meadow Lake, and, relatively speaking, it isn't too great of a distance.

I wonder if they cleaned up immediately after the mud incident while still in Cold Lake. The Cold Lake Provincial Park isn't too far from where we figured the Rav got stuck, and it would have day use areas with washrooms, etc. They could clean up quickly, wash a shirt in the sink and dry under a handdryer or just go shirtless for a little while as it dries along the way to Meadow Lake. They do look pretty clean at the Co-op though!

JMO

I wonder... instead of a drive through car wash, a do it yourself stall one; blast off any mud on their shoes and pant cuffs, maybe wash K's shirt too. In the Meadow Lake vid, B did appear like he was fussing with his camo jacket - maybe he'd just put it on? Same for K's shirt? An old trick for laundry while on the road is to rinse out stuff (even at a car wash) then roll up a back window to pit it half outside, and let it dry on the highway.
Or maybe I'm wrong and they somehow managed to not get any dirt on them. I just don't see it though, getting a car unstuck is muddy work (I've had the experience).

Would they really be that dumb, though? And would they really do no research on the area, if their lives depended on it? And would they really think that the search for triple murderers would be limited to one province? I feel like anyone who has even so much as watched any type of crime show ever, knows that wouldn't be true. And would they really think, as people who lived in a small-ish town their entire lives, that two 6'4"+ teenagers could just show up in a small town with vague backstories and gossip wouldn't go around? I don't think they were that stupid, even though they weren't smart.

Plus, they must have seen that Lucas and Chynna's murders got a ton of coverage. I remember even seeing it on the news at the laundromat right after it happened, and I'm not even in the same country.

This case is a really confounding one in so many ways. I've dug into cases before, but never encountered one that bugs me like this one. Part of it is trying to get into the heads of the suspects, to figure out why. Another part is the sheer absurdity of some of the things they did on their eastward trek. Fugitive murderers, giving their real names... seriously, can anyone ever recall that happening before?

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm sure you can find information about all this stuff online. Or if it isn't available, make a thread on a forum somewhere and ask. Maybe it wouldn't have warned about that particular checkpoint, but I'm sure there would have been something about some reservations being dry. There was literally an entire TV series about winter roads (Ice Road Truckers) so it's not exactly an esoteric concept.

A forum somewhere? I’m curious, what forum connects people with northern towns in Canada?

As for the TV show, I’ve never heard of it and as we have snow all winter in most parts of Canada I’m not so sure it’s a must-watch by others either. But I could be wrong.

 

[10ofRods]

I think they thought roaming around the wilderness and shooting people would be cool. And then they found out they weren't in a video game. A Websleuther, @10ofRods? suggested they were in, more of an ad hoc state, making plans as they go. And that makes sense to me.

They covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. And to me that requires assistance of some kind, especially if we believe that BS didn't/couldn't/wouldn't drive, like maybe caffiene, energy drinks, junk food, adrenalin, no sleep, or whatever, a combo of all. None of that leads to good discisions...

Great way of putting it - and that point about covering all that ground. ITA. Something going on there, biochemically. Someone was manic, both were manic, they were using uppers, they were extremely high on adrenalin - something.

Or yes, a combination (and all of those states are somewhat similar, biochemically).

 

[NJSleuth91]

A forum somewhere? I’m curious, what forum connects people with northern towns in Canada?

As for the TV show, I’ve never heard of it and as we have snow all winter in most parts of Canada I’m not so sure it’s a must-watch by others either. But I could be wrong.

Well, Reddit has everything. If you went on /r/canada or something and asked "I'm thinking of moving up north, what should I know and what should I do to prepare?" you'll get a bunch of responses. And it's really easy to be anonymous on there and delete your posts and account. And I'm positive these guys were on Reddit (they're the type)...JMO.

Either way, point is, the concept of ice roads isn't really that esoteric. Plus if you go on Google Maps and search for the route, it won't show the ice roads this time of year (I don't know if it does in the winter).

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, Reddit has everything. If you went on /r/canada or something and asked "I'm thinking of moving up north, what should I know and what should I do to prepare?" you'll get a bunch of responses. And it's really easy to be anonymous on there and delete your posts and account. And I'm positive these guys were on Reddit (they're the type)...JMO.

Either way, point is, the concept of ice roads isn't really that esoteric. Plus if you go on Google Maps and search for the route, it won't show the ice roads this time of year (I don't know if it does in the winter).

If posting on Reddit is what sent the two to a dead end road beyond Gillam, well so much for reliable and accurate information. Maybe they thought Sundance was an abandoned townsite too, just because it’s name is on a map.

 

[NJSleuth91]

If posting on Reddit is what sent the two to a dead end road beyond Gillam, well so much for reliable and accurate information. Maybe they thought Sundance was an abandoned townsite too, just because it’s name is on a map.

Sundance's Wikipedia article says it is abandoned.

Point is, I think they would have been able to get at least enough information from the internet and general knowledge, to know that they couldn't just murder a bunch of people and then show up in a small town and expect to just live there forever undetected.

 

[sandbar]

For example no google search would’ve forewarned the two there was a check stop for alcohol at Split Lake if they’d looked.

I'd say that's a failure of the education system in BC and probably most of Canada. Non-Native people should have an understanding of the ongoing-historical impact alcohol has had on FN people.

I agree with everything you said about the north. This isn't the only difference, but for one: PA has 17,000 pop, Gillam 1,250.

 

[Kubirai]

Yeah, of all the missing pieces in this story, I'm most intrigued by the sequence of events leading up to July 12. What happened or what series of things happened that led to them leaving Port Alberni and standing outside that blue van on the night of July 14/15? Can a series of small, everyday decisions/experiences lead to five deaths or does it take something more dramatic?

Key decisions were taken between July 6 and July 13 in several recent cases.

NZ killer made a FB post attacking his dad on July 7. Gilroy killer purchased gun on July 9.

Probably all coincidences, but there is a small chance of them chatting with same violence instigators online.

 

[Esprite]

Driving thousands of miles across country to the very end of the road seems quite indicative of their mindset.

 

[Gina20]

Sundance's Wikipedia article says it is abandoned.

Point is, I think they would have been able to get at least enough information from the internet and general knowledge, to know that they couldn't just murder a bunch of people and then show up in a small town and expect to just live there forever undetected.

It's one bizarre coincidence to go to the place where the Chetwynd double murder suspect was found, IMO. The chance of that happening is nil., but they did.

 

[Gina20]

Key decisions were taken between July 6 and July 13 in several recent cases.

NZ killer made a FB post attacking his dad on July 7. Gilroy killer purchased gun on July 9.

Probably all coincidences, but there is a small chance of them chatting with same violence instigators online.

8chan?