Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[Iwondertoo]

I'm not convinced that's exactly true. In these parts, First Nations Police conduct R.I.D.E. checks. They are fully qualified police officers and drive vehicles with regular police lights on them.

This news article suggests that the lights were on when the two suspects drove by it.

"Saunders said the teens drove past him and RCMP partner Morgan Spence at a traffic checkpoint in the RAV4, which had not yet been reported stolen from murder victim Leonard Dyck.

Saunders said,'They slowed down and then they drove by. I had the lights on and I was standing outside the truck. Me and my partner jumped in the truck and we went to stop them.'

Saunders said the boys saw the police in pursuit and pulled over.

He said, 'They turned off their engine, and I asked them why didn't they stop, they were supposed to stop when the lights are on."

'I should have done something': RCMP officer says he let fugitives slip through his fingers after they blew through a police checkpoint

In this case, we have to consider the source. It's The Daily Mail! It's more tabloid than factual news source.

Iirc, this story was torn apart by commenters and proven inaccurate in many ways. For one example -

The Daily Mail says the check stop was manned by members of the RCMP but then goes on to say this...

"As officers at the Split Lake traffic stop are unarmed and have no bullet-proof vests, Saunders said he felt he also had a close brush with death that day."

I'm pretty sure that members of the RCMP would be carrying a firearm. The alcohol checkstop was probably manned by unarmed First Nation police, not the RCMP.

The Daily Mail writes whatever they want to get clicks. Fact checking isn't a consideration when they write their stories. It should not be used as a source of MSM.

MOO

 

[Zella]

In this case, we have to consider the source. It's The Daily Mail! It's more tabloid than factual news source.

Iirc, this story was torn apart by commenters and proven inaccurate in many ways.

The Daily Mail says the check stop was manned by members of the RCMP but then goes on to say this...

"As officers at the Split Lake traffic stop are unarmed and have no bullet-proof vests, Saunders said he felt he also had a close brush with death that day."

I'm pretty sure that members of the RCMP would be carrying a firearm. The alcohol checkstop was probably manned by unarmed First Nation police, not the RCMP.

The Daily Mail writes whatever they want to get clicks. Fact checking isn't a consideration when they write their stories. It should not be used as a source of MSM.

MOO

Yeah the Daily Fail loves to sensationalize and has been particularly egregious several times in this case.

I've found this article to be one of the more detailed accounts from the constables:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/first-nation-constable-stopped-homicide-suspects-1.5230779

I've always found it interesting the detail that they drove through the checkpoint slowly before then stopping. I think they did that quite intentionally to buy themselves time in stowing away something. Obviously wouldn't have passed muster if the vehicle had been thoroughly checked, but I also suspect there would have been 2 more victims if the constables had insisted on checking the vehicle thoroughly.

Edited to add: This is a nice timeline of the case that also includes some info on the constable stop, including the note that Bryer in particular looked "paranoid."
BC teen fugitives found dead

 

[srper2]

You just proved exactly my post, thank you.

Canadians don't stop simply because there's a vehicle with its lights flashing and the officers are standing outside their vehicles.

We slow down and give them berth by pulling over to the left as safely as possible and pass by, unless they're flagging us down to pull over. If not, we can assume they're tending to/finishing other police business.

It sounded to me like the officers believed they indicated that KM and BS were supposed to stop. If KM was tired from driving, he could have missed this indication, but realised this and apologised when they followed him and got him to pull over.

 

[KR72]

I'm not convinced that's exactly true. In these parts, First Nations Police conduct R.I.D.E. checks. They are fully qualified police officers and drive vehicles with regular police lights on them.

This news article suggests that the lights were on when the two suspects drove by it.

"Saunders said the teens drove past him and RCMP partner Morgan Spence at a traffic checkpoint in the RAV4, which had not yet been reported stolen from murder victim Leonard Dyck.

Saunders said,'They slowed down and then they drove by. I had the lights on and I was standing outside the truck. Me and my partner jumped in the truck and we went to stop them.'

Saunders said the boys saw the police in pursuit and pulled over.

He said, 'They turned off their engine, and I asked them why didn't they stop, they were supposed to stop when the lights are on."

'I should have done something': RCMP officer says he let fugitives slip through his fingers after they blew through a police checkpoint

The article you linked is incorrect, the two constables who stopped the suspects for the alcohol check are not RCMP officers or police officers at all, they're band constables.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/first-nation-constable-stopped-homicide-suspects-1.5230779

I couldn't find one for Split Lake, but here's an outline of band constable responsibilities from another northern reserve.

Policing

 

[LoisLane]

Agreed. I'd just like to hear what it is people think they may have shoplifted that might go towards proving either that they committed one or three of these murders, or it was for escaping or committing future crimes (since the shoplifting seems to be specifically concerned with their Meadow Lake shopping trip).

You know, like sleuthing

There were various ideas thrown out already of what they could have taken or purchased. Also why the layout of the store and where they were in the camera footage was discussed as well. The photo’s from the COOP webpage were telling too.

Examples of items: maps, mosquito netting, weapons like knives or rifles, bullets, etc. I’m sure there is more we could think of or was already mentioned.

They could have also used the washroom to freshen up.

 

[ktm44]

And? I don't live there, I don't drive, and they don't have alcohol checkpoints where I live. How am I supposed to know what Canadian law is for what constitutes an alcohol checkpoint? Clearly in the article it says the officers themselves thought that Kam and Bryer should have known to stop.

I live close to two reserves and have never seen alcohol checkpoints but I'd be inclined to believe it is reserve policy, not federal law. I believe I read an article that the station employees people who work there are more like security guards that trained officers.

I would suggest the reason for their surprise that someone would drive through, stems from the fact that the area is so isolated that they don't see many outsiders and the locals are familair with the policy.

 

[LoisLane]

Agreed, but Meadow Lake was after the murders.

But they could have murdered again if they had to or other crimes.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I live close to two reserves and have never seen alcohol checkpoints but I'd be inclined to believe it is reserve policy, not federal law. I believe I read an article that the station employees people who work there are more like security guards that trained officers.

I would suggest the reason for their surprise that someone would drive through, stems from the fact that the area is so isolated that they don't see many outsiders and the locals are familair with the policy.

That makes sense. However none of the news articles I've seen on this topic ever indicated that in Canada, typically an alcohol checkpoint is a much larger thing, and that typically if there's just one police car on the side of the road, you're supposed to drive by slowly even if the lights are on. And in the interview the officers seemed to think that the two of them should have known to stop, most likely because as you said, most people in the area know the policy. So that's where my confusion came from.

And I'm not the only person who didn't know this -- a lot of people on here speculated that Kam and Bryer drove through the checkpoint because they wanted time to hide items from the officers. However, given that they did drive by slowly, chances are that it actually was due to confusion about what the rules were. And that actually seems a lot more consistent with their known behavior. I don't think that they wanted to attract police attention unnecessarily during their escape -- in fact I think that was the last thing they wanted to do. I don't think they would have had any suspicious items out in the first place.

 

[Iwondertoo]

Canadians don't stop simply because there's a vehicle with its lights flashing and the officers are standing outside their vehicles.

We slow down and give them berth by pulling over to the left as safely as possible and pass by, unless they're flagging us down to pull over. If not, we can assume they're tending to/finishing other police business.

SBM

I agree, we slow down and move on.

I just wanted to add this though for whatever it's worth. I'm from B.C. and am in my mid 50's. I've done hundreds of camping road trips since I was a young child with my parents till now when I camp as an adult. I have never driven through a First Nations dry community alcohol checkpoint. I have driven through First Nations lands before many times, but without it being a dry community, there is no need for a check point.

If I was KM, I would have slowed down for the flashing lights but kept on driving too. Without any experience with a First Nations checkpoint, I wouldn't have a clue what it was all about and would have carried on. I probably would have thought the vehicle was part of a road maintenance crew now that I think about it. And I have years more experience than KM.

Just to give thought to why he might not have stopped. MOO.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Yes but their M.O. for all other crimes was to do them in remote areas where people would take a while to find out. Committing crimes right in front of witnesses is not their M.O. at all. In fact I'd say they were even too cowardly to do anything criminal in front of witnesses.

This discussion is just going in circles at this point.

Using your logic we can conclude they didn't shoplift because they didn't shoot the clerk. Their MO for "all other crimes" was to shoot the person they were stealing from. I cannot fathom how this line of reasoning makes sense to you.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Using your logic we can conclude they didn't shoplift because they didn't shoot the clerk. Their MO for "all other crimes" was to shoot the person they were stealing from. I cannot fathom how this line of reasoning makes sense to you.

I don't see what the confusion is. In all other crimes they were in a remote wilderness area without any buildings nearby, there were only one or two people around, and probably nobody else around for miles.

If they had been caught shoplifting, they would have been arrested, and once their names were looked up, charged with murder. At that point it would not have been worth it to them, especially since they seemed to fear prison more than death.

 

[ktm44]

That makes sense. However none of the news articles I've seen on this topic ever indicated that in Canada, typically an alcohol checkpoint is a much larger thing, and that typically if there's just one police car on the side of the road, you're supposed to drive by slowly even if the lights are on. And in the interview the officers seemed to think that the two of them should have known to stop, most likely because as you said, most people in the area know the policy. So that's where my confusion came from.

And I'm not the only person who didn't know this -- a lot of people on here speculated that Kam and Bryer drove through the checkpoint because they wanted time to hide items from the officers. However, given that they did drive by slowly, chances are that it actually was due to confusion about what the rules were. And that actually seems a lot more consistent with their known behavior. I don't think that they wanted to attract police attention unnecessarily during their escape -- in fact I think that was the last thing they wanted to do. I don't think they would have had any suspicious items out in the first place.

We do have laws in Canada that require us to slow down when passing emergency vehicles. I've read many comments and many seem to be confusing the drug/alcohol checkpoint with Check Stops, where police are looking for impaired drivers.

I've traveled quite extensively in Canada and have only encountered one of these checkpoints and I really had no idea what I was supposed to do so I could see how someone would drive past, simply thinking that it was something for locals only.

 

[Zella]

SBM

I agree, we slow down and move on.

I just wanted to add this though for whatever it's worth. I'm from B.C. and am in my mid 50's. I've done hundreds of camping road trips since I was a young child with my parents till now when I camp as an adult. I have never driven through a First Nations dry community alcohol checkpoint. I have driven through First Nations lands before many times, but without it being a dry community, there is no need for a check point.

If I was KM, I would have slowed down for the flashing lights but kept on driving too. Without any experience with a First Nations checkpoint, I wouldn't have a clue what it was all about and would have carried on. I probably would have thought the vehicle was part of a road maintenance crew now that I think about it. And I have years more experience than KM.

Just to give thought to why he might not have stopped. MOO.

This is very interesting--thank you!

Based on all this discussion about the checkpoints, I no longer think them driving through slowly was a matter of them trying to hide something. Now I'm thinking that, yeah, Kam slowing down but not stopping was not unreasonable general confusion on his part about what was expected of him.

This might also explain why Bryer looked so panicked. Even though he didn't have a DL and we still don't know conclusively whether or not he could drive, he would have certainly been a passenger in many a vehicle over the years and was probably just as bewildered about why they were being pulled over.

So, yes, they were both probably freaking out about why they were being pulled over after they thought they were observing the rules of the road. I've certainly been a passenger in the car during those situations--"What did you do?" "I don't know!"

MOO

 

[NJSleuth91]

This is very interesting--thank you!

Based on all this discussion about the checkpoints, I no longer think them driving through slowly was a matter of them trying to hide something. Now I'm thinking that, yeah, Kam slowing down but not stopping was not unreasonable general confusion on his part about what was expected of him.

This might also explain why Bryer looked so panicked. Even though he didn't have a DL and we still don't know conclusively whether or not he could drive, he would have certainly been a passenger in many a vehicle over the years.

They were both probably freaking out about why they were being pulled over after they thought they were observing the rules of the road. I've certainly been a passenger in the car during those situations--"What did you do?" "I don't know!"

MOO

It also explains why Bryer asked whether alcohol was allowed on the reservation. Like, "was that really an alcohol checkpoint or is this some kind of trap?" He seemed to be paranoid in general so it would make sense he might think it was a setup. JMO.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I don't see what the confusion is. In all other crimes they were in a remote wilderness area without any buildings nearby, there were only one or two people around, and probably nobody else around for miles.

If they had been caught shoplifting, they would have been arrested, and once their names were looked up, charged with murder. At that point it would not have been worth it to them, especially since they seemed to fear prison more than death.

I clearly see where the confusion is. You are taking a couple of crimes they did, that we know about, and claiming they will do all other crimes the same way.

 

[FactFinder3000]

We do have laws in Canada that require us to slow down when passing emergency vehicles. I've read many comments and many seem to be confusing the drug/alcohol checkpoint with Check Stops, where police are looking for impaired drivers.

I've traveled quite extensively in Canada and have only encountered one of these checkpoints and I really had no idea what I was supposed to do so I could see how someone would drive past, simply thinking that it was something for locals only.

I agree. Kam did what he was supposed to do under BC law. To wit:


In British Columbia, motorists are required to slow down and move over for all vehicles stopped alongside the road that have flashing red, blue or yellow lights. This includes maintenance workers, utility workers, police, fire, ambulance, tow trucks, Commercial Vehicle Safety Enforcement personnel, land surveyors, animal control workers, garbage collectors and other roadside workers.

Motorists must slow their speed to:

70km/h when in an 80km/h or over zone
40km/h when in an under 80km/h zone
If travelling on a multi-lane road, drivers must move into another lane to pass when passing stopped vehicles with a flashing light, where safe to do so. This provides roadside workers and emergency personnel with greater protection from accident and injury.


source: Slow Down, Move Over - Province of British Columbia

 

[Lalalacasbah]

There were various ideas thrown out already of what they could have taken or purchased. Also why the layout of the store and where they were in the camera footage was discussed as well. The photo’s from the COOP webpage were telling too.

Examples of items: maps, mosquito netting, weapons like knives or rifles, bullets, etc. I’m sure there is more we could think of or was already mentioned.

They could have also used the washroom to freshen up.

Other items they sell: pellet guns and air rifles, although I think you already mentioned a back wall of guns? It must be these types of guns I guess?

Meadow Lake Co-op

 

[Zella]

It also explains why Bryer asked whether alcohol was allowed on the reservation. Like, "was that really an alcohol checkpoint or is this some kind of trap?" He seemed to be paranoid in general so it would make sense he might think it was a setup. JMO.

Yeah as soon as the constable story came out, I suspected Bryer was asking about alcohol not necessarily because he planned to buy some but because he was weirded out by the stop and was double-checking that what the constables said was true. MOO

 

[NJSleuth91]

I clearly see where the confusion is. You are taking a couple of crimes they did, that we know about, and claiming they will do all other crimes the same way.

And also using Occam's Razor. The store has very good security cameras (and we likely didn't see all the footage they have of these two). There were staff members in the store who interacted with them, which reduced their opportunity to steal. These guys were not great at covering up their crimes in general. They seemed to be very cowardly in general and afraid of being caught. They were also said to have a substantial amount of money when they set out from home. There is absolutely zero evidence that we know about indicating they shoplifted. The store owners were interviewed and said nothing about them having shoplifted. Therefore, my conclusion is that they most likely didn't. I don't see what's so hard to understand about my reasoning.

 

[SovereignSnake]

It sounded to me like the officers believed they indicated that KM and BS were supposed to stop. If KM was tired from driving, he could have missed this indication, but realised this and apologised when they followed him and got him to pull over.

I'll have to see if I can find the article, but there was one written that had some more elaboration on what happened when they were stopped. One of the officers even said Kam didn't stop because they were almost out of gas which is very plausible. The wording was a little strange though I recall. They also conflicted on what was seen when they stopped the boys. The one who spoke to them at the window said he only noticed two boxes and a suit. The one who did the walk around claimed he saw some camping gear and maps. But the officer at the window said he never saw anything like that. Again, the wording they used was strange as was their conflicting reports especially when both officers were in such close proximity to one another. I mean it's a Toyota RAV not a bus. Take a combination of being tired and then worried about running out of gas, it probably spooked them pretty good to get as far as they did only to get flagged to stop by an unfamiliar vehicle. I have to wonder if those patrols even have red and blue lights or yellow lights like a road construction pickup. I got the impression they're something akin to public safety. I may not have taken them seriously or trusted the officers either based on what they were driving and how they were dressed. Then again I've never experienced an alcohol checkpoint. Minnesota and Wisconsin ruled them unconstitutional.