Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #18

[MistyWaters]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> ... in this tragedy, the two only left Port Alberni on July 12th in a truck and camper which would’ve been far beyond their means to afford at their age, reportedly with funds to cover expenses. That level of family support is much greater than an unemployed young adult being sent away from home to go job hunting with nothing but a bus ticket.

After crossing the ferry to the mainland they’d have choice of heading east or north and travelling to destinations they’d never seen before. Until they arrived somewhere they couldn’t know what to expect or if they’d find unadvertised jobs, even temporary in nature, opening a door to new experiences.

The onset of this adventure should’ve been a time of high optimism for the two, I would think. Instead, only two nights later, the night of July 14th, L&C were murdered by gun violence.

Even if robbery was their initial motive and things turned ugly, that’s no
excuse because they weren’t starving and destitute and lost in the middle of nowhere. There’s no justifiable reason whatsoever for breaking into a van parked on the side of the Alaskan Highway even if it was unoccupied. Their gravitation toward criminal activity as an adventure, a game, is what influenced their short life path IMO.

I’m reminded of another high profile case, 3 time murderer Dellen Millard, who’s yearn to experience the adrenaline rush of killing a stranger and attempting to get away with it was greater than anything he wanted to otherwise achieve. I have my doubts that B&K were sincere about job hunting any more than DM was looking for a truck to purchase.

 

[Schmoosh]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> ... in this tragedy, the two only left Port Alberni on July 12th in a truck and camper which would’ve been far beyond their means to afford at their age, reportedly with funds to cover expenses. That level of family support is much greater than an unemployed young adult being sent away from home to go job hunting with nothing but a bus ticket.

After crossing the ferry to the mainland they’d have choice of heading east or north and travelling to destinations they’d never seen before. Until they arrived somewhere they couldn’t know what to expect or if they’d find unadvertised jobs, even temporary in nature, opening a door to new experiences.

The onset of this adventure should’ve been a time of high optimism for the two, I would think. Instead, only two nights later, the night of July 14th, L&C were murdered by gun violence.

Even if robbery was their initial motive and things turned ugly, that’s no
excuse because they weren’t starving and destitute and lost in the middle of nowhere. There’s no justifiable reason whatsoever for breaking into a van parked on the side of the Alaskan Highway even if it was unoccupied. Their gravitation toward criminal activity as an adventure, a game, is what influenced their short life path IMO.

I’m reminded of another high profile case, 3 time murderer Dellen Millard, who’s yearn to experience the adrenaline rush of killing a stranger and attempting to get away with it was greater than anything he wanted to otherwise achieve. I have my doubts that B&K were sincere about job hunting any more than DM was looking for a truck to purchase.

Dellen Millard's first two killings (that we know of) weren't of strangers. It was the opposite - two people closest to him - his father and his ex-girlfriend, and each had a motive (money and his ex-girlfriend getting in the way of his new one).

There was also the element that they wanted to obtain an exact make and model truck that Tim Bosma had for sale, and they'd also met with other owners who were selling that truck until they found Tim's ad.

I'm not sure any of that can be compared to a thrill-kill of a stranger with no apparent motive, which some here are suggesting in KM and DS's case.

 

[musicaljoke]

What are your thoughts on AS's comment that he expected his son to go out in a "Blaze of glory" and that the mounties will "shoot first and ask questions later."

Do you think that Canadians expected the mounties to shoot the suspects? I have seen that in the US "suicide by cop" seems to be an accepted way of apprehending armed suspects, but has that trickled into Canadian thinking too? Was AS right about how the mounties would have handled their attempt to arrest the suspects?

Apart from a few well-known exceptions, I'm of the opinion that AS was wrong, that shooting armed suspects is still not the custom, it's not acceptable, and that the RCMP wouldn't have shot first and asked questions later.

Am I wrong?

From the article:
Father Says He Expects Alleged Teen Killers to Go Out in ‘Blaze of Glory’

Meanwhile, the father of Bryer Schmegelsky says he expects his son to go out in a “blaze of glory.” Alan Schmegelsky said his son’s influences were negative and born online and believes his son is “on a suicide mission.”

"Mounties are going to shoot first and ask questions later," he said in an interview with the Canadian Press. "He's going to be dead today or tomorrow, I know that."

 

[Schmoosh]

What are your thoughts on AS's comment that he expected his son to go out in a "Blaze of glory" and that the mounties will "shoot first and ask questions later."

Do you think that Canadians expected the mounties to shoot the suspects? I have seen that in the US "suicide by cop" seems to be an accepted way of apprehending armed suspects, but has that trickled into Canadian thinking too? Was AS right about how the mounties would have handled their attempt to arrest the suspects?

Apart from a few well-known exceptions, I'm of the opinion that AS was wrong, that shooting armed suspects is still not the custom, it's not acceptable, and that the RCMP wouldn't have shot first and asked questions later.

Am I wrong?

From the article:
Father Says He Expects Alleged Teen Killers to Go Out in ‘Blaze of Glory’

Meanwhile, the father of Bryer Schmegelsky says he expects his son to go out in a “blaze of glory.” Alan Schmegelsky said his son’s influences were negative and born online and believes his son is “on a suicide mission.”

"Mounties are going to shoot first and ask questions later," he said in an interview with the Canadian Press. "He's going to be dead today or tomorrow, I know that."

That "thinking" has started to permeate Canadian beliefs in some people due to U.S. influence through internet, TV shows and news, but it's not the Canadian reality. We know from AS's words ("his son’s influences were negative and born online") and from what was said about BS and his posts/connections online that he was definitely influenced that way (starting a "militia", which is less common in Canada, but far more prevalent in the U.S., Nazi-beliefs, belonging to pro-Trump group). I think all of that has far more relevance to their motives in this case than anything else and I won't be surprised if that is covered in the report when it comes out. The RCMP would have certainly looked into all of that.

Had the RCMP found them alive and not pointing firearms at them (which is what I believe AS was suggesting would happen, but the reporter never asked why he believed that) the RCMP would've carried them out in cuffs and found them medical assistance. Maybe even given them a sandwich if they were hungry.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I hadn’t noticed anybody speculating they were hardened criminals. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they were involved in break and enters and/or theft in the past, whether or not they were caught.

I agree with you. Given that they have apparently committed 2 murders with robbery, and killed a 3rd person for his vehicle, I'm think it's pretty safe to assume these are not law abiding citizens. The only question in my mind is whether or not they were ever caught for anything.

Thanks for the link (a few pages back). So it appears that in Canada, since 2003, the youth record is not completely sealed at 18. What offenses might show up depend on the offense and its outcome. Looking at those rules it seems, since both were (around) 19, that nothing prior to age 16 would show unless it was very serious, and there could have been something prior to 18 that does not show.

Many provinces, including BC, have 'Diversion.' I'm not sure if that prevents a criminal record or not.
Clicklaw: How does diversion work and how can I get it?

And just to clarify: the law affecting youth records is a federal law, therefore the age at which a person is no longer a youth is 18 across Canada, including BC.

 

[Jilleybeen]

What are your thoughts on AS's comment that he expected his son to go out in a "Blaze of glory" and that the mounties will "shoot first and ask questions later."

That "thinking" has started to permeate Canadian beliefs in some people due to U.S. influence through internet, TV shows and news, but it's not the Canadian reality.

SBM

I also think that AS’s history with RCMP likely contributed to this belief, believing they “weren’t fair”, were over-aggressive, etc. etc. I’d imagine having the RCMP confront him on the numerous occasions including his arrests would have pissed him off and made him feel as though they would “shoot first and ask questions later”.

 

[FactFinder3000]

I think if you point a rifle at RCMP you would very quickly be shot dead. They would tell you to drop your weapon, and if you pointed it at them, they would fire.

A quick google search shows plenty of cases where they have shot somebody armed only with a knife.
rcmp shooting knife - Google Search

 

[Gina20]

I swear I read an account by Tommy Ste-Croix, the guy who helped KM and BS in Cold Lake where the said he was talking to the RCMP officer and sort of being amazed by all of this and the officer offered that the two had "no criminal record". TSC did a lot of media and it may have been a video interview. At the same time TSC's story sort of grew over time (to include the sleeping bag that appeared in the river). So make of that what you will.

TSC was in Cold Lake and had nothing to do with the manhunt in Manitoba or the sleeping bag in the Nelson river. It was a local guide from Gillam who reported the sleeping bag. Catching up, so maybe someone has already corrected this.

 

[Gina20]

I think if you point a rifle at RCMP you would very quickly be shot dead. They would tell you to drop your weapon, and if you pointed it at them, they would fire.

A quick google search shows plenty of cases where they have shot somebody armed only with a knife.

rcmp shooting knife - Google Search

Here's a recent one.

Man waving machete shot by police in Surrey

 

[FactFinder3000]

[...]

Even if robbery was their initial motive and things turned ugly, that’s no
excuse because they weren’t starving and destitute and lost in the middle of nowhere. There’s no justifiable reason whatsoever for breaking into a van parked on the side of the Alaskan Highway even if it was unoccupied. Their gravitation toward criminal activity as an adventure, a game, is what influenced their short life path IMO.

I agree. And I think their motive here could have been pure greed with no social conscience.

Canada is currently experiencing record low unemployment. With the obvious family support that these two enjoyed it would have been no problem at all for them to make something of themselves. What is wrong with working at Walmart as a first job? To quit after just 5 weeks makes me think maybe they decided that working just wasn't for them.

 

[SnooperDuper]

TSC was in Cold Lake and had nothing to do with the manhunt in Manitoba or the sleeping bag in the Nelson river. It was a local guide from Gillam who reported the sleeping bag. Catching up, so maybe someone has already corrected this.

Ste-Croix said he recognized the sleeping bag found in the Nelson River by a guide helping RCMP on Aug. 2. Ste-Croix saw a photo of the sleeping bag published by Ontario media.

“That sleeping bag they found floating, I mentioned that to RCMP.

“They (Bryer and Kam) had it hanging on the fence while I was pulling them out.”

They were 'really nice kids' says Alberta man who inadvertently helped 2 BC teen fugitives

 

[SnooperDuper]

I think it’s somewhat amusing how much this guy had to say after his “short, unremarkable interaction”. Maybe some day it’ll be enough, he’ll write a book!

BBM
“On July 21, 2019, at approximately 9:30 a.m., a north end resident of Cold Lake observed a vehicle stuck on a trail behind their residence. Two younger males were observed outside of a Toyota Rav-4. The resident assisted the pair in getting unstuck and they continued on their way after a short, unremarkable interaction.”
Canada Police Report

AHA, I found the quote that I was looking for!

Ste-Croix went to the RCMP station the next day, at about 4:30 p.m. to report the encounter.

Ste-Croix said it was odd what the RCMP said to him about the teens.

“First thing the cop mentioned is ‘these boys don’t have criminal records.’ Very odd.”

They were 'really nice kids' says Alberta man who inadvertently helped 2 BC teen fugitives

 

[Gina20]

Probably not. Most hospitals and many nursing homes are staffed by either municipal or provincial employees and all levels of government are allowed to conduct a criminal background check on youths. Child care centres are different, but I don't think many of them would hire people under 18 anyway.

It's confusing about what does and doesn't show to employers in criminal record checks.

Criminal record checks | Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Fingerprints obtained for a CRC are not added to the database.

 

[SovereignSnake]

What are your thoughts on AS's comment that he expected his son to go out in a "Blaze of glory" and that the mounties will "shoot first and ask questions later."

Do you think that Canadians expected the mounties to shoot the suspects? I have seen that in the US "suicide by cop" seems to be an accepted way of apprehending armed suspects, but has that trickled into Canadian thinking too? Was AS right about how the mounties would have handled their attempt to arrest the suspects?

Apart from a few well-known exceptions, I'm of the opinion that AS was wrong, that shooting armed suspects is still not the custom, it's not acceptable, and that the RCMP wouldn't have shot first and asked questions later.

Am I wrong?

From the article:
Father Says He Expects Alleged Teen Killers to Go Out in ‘Blaze of Glory’

Meanwhile, the father of Bryer Schmegelsky says he expects his son to go out in a “blaze of glory.” Alan Schmegelsky said his son’s influences were negative and born online and believes his son is “on a suicide mission.”

"Mounties are going to shoot first and ask questions later," he said in an interview with the Canadian Press. "He's going to be dead today or tomorrow, I know that."

My honest opinion was Alan was being pretty melodramatic in that interview. I think the media swarmed and overwhelmed him and he had never experienced that kind of attention in his life before now. Not just national but international media attention. He appears to live a fairly simple, minimal frills life, albeit a fairly difficult one. He seemed more composed in other interviews but he does strike me as the kind of guy who lets his emotions get the best of him and he speaks from the heart. But also quickly overwrought if too much stimuli is dumped on him at once. Happens to lots of us. Mostly I think he was completely blindsided by everything. Trying to grasp that his 18 going on 19 year old son went from a trip of life adventure/life discovery with his best only friend to on the run across Canada, charged with 1 murder and suspected of 2 others, having no way to talk to him, very little, frustrating information from the RCMP. But also, truly, the blinding revelation he really didn't know his own son at all. I think Kam's parents also struggled with this realization. This whole thing really has had such a dark coming of age feel to it.

 

[KR72]

I agree. And I think their motive here could have been pure greed with no social conscience.

Canada is currently experiencing record low unemployment. With the obvious family support that these two enjoyed it would have been no problem at all for them to make something of themselves. What is wrong with working at Walmart as a first job? To quit after just 5 weeks makes me think maybe they decided that working just wasn't for them.

I keep wondering if the job hunt was a complete lie they told their famlies so that they could take the camper truck and get some cash. I mean, really, what kind of job do a couple of guys who graduated from an alternative high school with no further training/skills or education think they're going to get?

Most people with a grade 12 education don't do well in the job market and are pretty limited to minimum wage type jobs. Even if they thought they were going to find jobs on the tar sands, MOST of those jobs advertised these days seem to require a skill/trade or experience. There's always exceptions, of course.

I don't blame young people for wanting to go on an adventure and look for work, but something tells me that whole job hunting story was just that, a story.

 

[MistyWaters]

Dellen Millard's first two killings (that we know of) weren't of strangers. It was the opposite - two people closest to him - his father and his ex-girlfriend, and each had a motive (money and his ex-girlfriend getting in the way of his new one).

There was also the element that they wanted to obtain an exact make and model truck that Tim Bosma had for sale, and they'd also met with other owners who were selling that truck until they found Tim's ad.

I'm not sure any of that can be compared to a thrill-kill of a stranger with no apparent motive, which some here are suggesting in KM and DS's case.

Yes, that correct the first two murders of DM were not of strangers but that’s not why I compared him to B&K. That TB happened to own the type and model of truck DM wanted to buy is no excuse for murdering the owner and testimony also revealed the two had a prior history of theft, no other reason than just for a lark. So I think it’s fair to say they participated in criminal activity just for the thrill of it.

There will never can be a justifiable motive for B&K stopping at the van on the roadside and leaving the owners dead any more than there is for the reason DM contacted TB about an ad for his truck, took it for a rest drive and murdered him. In both examples the perpetrators are the aggressors and the victims who were strangers did not initiate the contact. Is there ever another reason to murder a total stranger other than a thrill kill? And then not one but two?

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I agree, it’s a difficult time for youth.

But in this tragedy, the two only left Port Alberni on July 12th in a truck and camper which would’ve been far beyond their means to afford at their age, reportedly with funds to cover expenses. That level of family support is much greater than an unemployed young adult being sent away from home to go job hunting with nothing but a bus ticket.

After crossing the ferry to the mainland they’d have choice of heading east or north and travelling to destinations they’d never seen before. Until they arrived somewhere they couldn’t know what to expect or if they’d find unadvertised jobs, even temporary in nature, opening a door to new experiences.

The onset of this adventure should’ve been a time of high optimism for the two, I would think. Instead, only two nights later, the night of July 14th, L&C were murdered by gun violence.

Even if robbery was their initial motive and things turned ugly, that’s no
excuse because they weren’t starving and destitute and lost in the middle of nowhere. There’s no justifiable reason whatsoever for breaking into a van parked on the side of the Alaskan Highway even if it was unoccupied. Their gravitation toward criminal activity as an adventure, a game, is what influenced their short life path IMO.

I’m reminded of another high profile case, 3 time murderer Dellen Millard, who’s yearn to experience the adrenaline rush of killing a stranger and attempting to get away with it was greater than anything he wanted to otherwise achieve. I have my doubts that B&K were sincere about job hunting any more than DM was looking for a truck to purchase.

As bleak as BC is for everyone (not just youth lol) I agree with your post.

Choices. People have choices. People come from far worse backgrounds than B&K and make something of themselves in life.

It should've been exciting times. A new world. Beautiful scenery. A step to change their life. They chose another path.

Of course mental illness can cloud judgement and motivation so I empathize with people who don't have the option to perhaps change their life but we still don't know what or if B&K suffered from or if they were just bored, deviant and restless guys.

True about Millard, it seems nothing would or could satisfy his hunger for... power, adrenaline, risky behaviour or whatever, so he had to go a step further to murder. And even one murder wasn't enough! Scary.

 

[Gina20]

Ste-Croix said he recognized the sleeping bag found in the Nelson River by a guide helping RCMP on Aug. 2. Ste-Croix saw a photo of the sleeping bag published by Ontario media.

“That sleeping bag they found floating, I mentioned that to RCMP.

“They (Bryer and Kam) had it hanging on the fence while I was pulling them out.”

They were 'really nice kids' says Alberta man who inadvertently helped 2 BC teen fugitives

Want to bet that they bought sleeping bags at Walmart, i.e. common ones? TSC was not in northern Manitoba. He did not see the sleeping bag in the Nelson River. He saw a photo of a sleeping bag. The sleeping bag in Manitoba was not confirmed to belong to BS and KM.

I guess we all get to choose what we believe, based on credibility. IMO, this is weak.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Dellen Millard's first two killings (that we know of) weren't of strangers. It was the opposite - two people closest to him - his father and his ex-girlfriend, and each had a motive (money and his ex-girlfriend getting in the way of his new one).

There was also the element that they wanted to obtain an exact make and model truck that Tim Bosma had for sale, and they'd also met with other owners who were selling that truck until they found Tim's ad.

I'm not sure any of that can be compared to a thrill-kill of a stranger with no apparent motive, which some here are suggesting in KM and DS's case.

I'm no expert in what constitutes thrill kill but I definitely think the murders were unnecessary. Those people didn't have to die. They could've stolen Tim's truck out of his driveway or let him live. I don't think money or trucks were really that important to Dellen, I personally think it was power and the challenge. It all seemed like a game to him is the impression I got, JMO

 

[Schmoosh]

Yes, that correct the first two murders of DM were not of strangers but that’s not why I compared him to B&K. That TB happened to own the type and model of truck DM wanted to buy is no excuse for murdering the owner and testimony also revealed the two had a prior history of theft, no other reason than just for a lark. So I think it’s fair to say they participated in criminal activity just for the thrill of it.

There will never can be a justifiable motive for B&K stopping at the van on the roadside and leaving the owners dead any more than there is for the reason DM contacted TB about an ad for his truck, took it for a rest drive and murdered him. In both examples the perpetrators are the aggressors and the victims who were strangers did not initiate the contact. Is there ever another reason to murder a total stranger other than a thrill kill? And then not one but two?

Yes, the reason to murder a total stranger when you've just stolen their truck and the victim is right there, is because if you let him go, you go to jail. They didn't murder him for the thrill, they murdered him for his truck. Had they wanted just a thrill-kill, they would've murder the first guy who took them for a test drive in the same type of truck they were trying to acquire. Or some random person. The truck they wanted was the motive, not a thrill-kill IMO.

I can't find anything yet that would suggest KM and BS simply thrill-killed with no other motive. If that's all they wanted to do, there were far easier ways to accomplish that.