Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

[MistyWaters]

If that was the case then why would Bryer's great-uncle specifically say on August 9th that his family wasn't told any more information than the general public?

Also, if they had enough evidence at that time to indicate Kam and Bryer did it, why wasn't the "extremely dangerous -- do not approach" thing released until days later, when they were already in the woods? They easily could have killed a bunch of people while they were traveling across the country, and how would anyone have known to watch out? There WERE several people who interacted with them in isolated circumstances. Fortunately, it turns out Kam and Bryer were done with killing, but police had no way of knowing that at the time. The police are very lucky that nothing else happened.

But that was August 9th when the bodies were discovered and the autopsy results wasn’t completed or announced until fours days later, on Aug 13th.

Now it’s Sept 23rd. I think that only proves time does not stand still. If any of the family members of the five, whether it be victims or suspects, want to publicly voice their grievances they have every right to, such as AS has already done. As they have more direct contact with the RCMP, they also have that route. I can’t think of one good reason they’d expect the general public to guess about what they now know or how they must be feeling and then speak on their behalf.

But even back on Aug 9th it appears at least the great uncle was working towards attempting to gain an understanding of what might’ve went wrong -

“He said speaking to the staff sergeant in charge of the investigation had provided some comfort.

"He indicated that [it's] not unusual that the side of folks that we see and think we see on a daily basis can change given some input that we don't know about," McNabb said. .”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/schmegelsky-reaction-1.5240552

 

[CinNC]

Surrey has its share of gang issues, for sure. But K&B lived on Vancouver Island. Surrey is close to the City of Vancouver, which isn’t on Vancouver Island although it does bear the same name. However Victoria, where AS lived, is on Vancouver Island and is the capital of BC. I can understand how it’s confusing, where what is.

And that’s not to say gangs don’t operate anywhere else other than Surrey, BC because that would definitely not be true.

Thanks for the clarification. I am familiar with the proximity of the cities to the island; I used to be a software trainer and got sent all over that area in a different organization each week.

That said, this is just one article and I am sure Vancouver Island has its own version of these problems. Also, considering the global connectivity of "gangs", I'm sure that there are no geographical borders that determine where they function and recruit from. I was born and raised in New York City and then my parents moved 29 miles away to New Jersey. The gang and drug world "pull" on suburban kids was strong, even though they didn't live in New York City proper. I personally knew a few people who lived (and died) in that world in their early twenties, who I'd attended high school with - in an upper middle-class town.

 

[MistyWaters]

I also have a lot of questions about that and that could be one reason why the lawyer is so convinced there will be an inquest. (I can also think of several other reasons.) They were just allowed to run off across the country and it doesn't seem like they were being looked for that hard. I don't think they wanted to kill anyone else at that point but the RCMP had no way of knowing that, and the general public was at risk. If they were named as persons of interest or something earlier, would the surveillance footage have come out earlier and the police would have been able to track them down? Would the alcohol checkpoint officers have recognized them? Is it possible they could even have been captured alive?

Who “allowed” them to run off across the country? Until the investigation linked the two to one or all three homicides, they had every right to go wherever they chose without seeking permission or telling anyone.



“Shoihet said this week she can appreciate members of the public criticizing the Mounties' decisions, but said every decision police made was based on information they had at the time.

"As soon as we had verified information linking to the two investigations, we provided that information to the public. We cannot provide information we do not have," she wrote in an email.

She said over nine days, the RCMP issued nine news releases and held five press conferences to keep communities informed and up to date.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/pmo-letters-schmegelsky-mcleod-search-1.5288903

 

[Moriarty]

Ok...egg on my face time. There was a report from CTV where a spokesperson for RCMP did say, "Right now we're using all conventional techniques including air services, police dog services and search and rescue to search for the missing men."

Sooooo...maybe I'm wrong about not searching for the teens initially. Sorry folks. I don't remember seeing that back then...

Police continue search for missing Port Alberni teens after body, burned truck found

 

[NJSleuth91]

But that was August 9th when the bodies were discovered and the autopsy results wasn’t completed or announced until fours days later, on Aug 13th.

Now it’s Sept 23rd. I think that only proves time does not stand still. If any of the family members of the five, whether it be victims or suspects, want to publicly voice their grievances they have every right to, such as AS has already done. As they have more direct contact with the RCMP, they also have that route. I can’t think of one good reason they’d expect the general public to guess about what they now know or how they must be feeling and then speak on their behalf.

But even back on Aug 9th it appears at least the great uncle was working towards attempting to gain an understanding of what might’ve went wrong -

“He said speaking to the staff sergeant in charge of the investigation had provided some comfort.

"He indicated that [it's] not unusual that the side of folks that we see and think we see on a daily basis can change given some input that we don't know about," McNabb said. .”
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/schmegelsky-reaction-1.5240552

The police didn't tell the families any more information than we have about why they thought Kam and Bryer did it, during a three-week manhunt that involved the military, one of the largest in Canadian history. They had helicopters hunting down Kam and Bryer and wouldn't tell their families what evidence implicated them in three homicides. Why would they suddenly start being forthcoming with information now? That isn't how they've operated the entire time.

Also as I said in my previous post (#719), Bryer's mom's side of the family must have leaked the information about the goodbye video, because they were the only ones who initially saw it and clearly weren't in contact with Bryer's dad. The motive for leaking it which makes the most sense is that they were trying to get the public to pressure the RCMP to release more information, using the only leverage they had.

And the RCMP even said that they were going to release information to the families when the report was done and then immediately release it to the public, which indicates that the families weren't going to get much more than that before the report was done.

I highly doubt their families know much more than we do at this point.

Ok...egg on my face time. There was a report from CTV where a spokesperson for RCMP did say, "Right now we're using all conventional techniques including air services, police dog services and search and rescue to search for the missing men."

Sooooo...maybe I'm wrong about not searching for the teens initially. Sorry folks. I don't remember seeing that back then...

Police continue search for missing Port Alberni teens after body, burned truck found

So it sounds to me like they really did think Kam and Bryer were missing in those first days, or at least weren't convinced they were the killers. Especially since the public wasn't told anything about "extremely dangerous -- do not approach" or "they are wanted for questioning" until Kam and Bryer were already in the wilderness.

 

[Satchie]

I really hope my hunch is wrong, that the RCMP just thought the two were missing and that some killer/killers left one body on the side of the road but took two teens hostage or took their bodies with them or they ran off into the woods and would come out eventually on their own. I would love to hear that there was indeed a search done for them in those days between July 19 and 23.

I think by July 21 police strongly suspected the scenario that they later declared, but they had to gather the evidence sufficient to prove it, and try to track the teens through other means, before they laid the charges and brought the public in.

Police had to track down the ownership of the truck and what it would have looked like before it was burned, identify the teens as having been using it, make contact with all family and friends to find out whether anyone was in contact with them, obtain cellphone and banking info to try to locate their current wherabouts, get their current photos and track their previous movements on surveillance video to confirm that 1. They were driving the truck the day before it was burned ie it hadn't, for eg, been stolen in Whitehorse and driven south by someone else and 2. Confirm there was no avenues open to locate them other than going to the media and declaring them missing. They made that declaration late evening July 21.

Meanwhile, they were trying to find proof to link them to the murdered man and the presumably stolen car. They'd be looking for witnesses, eg interviewing nearby campers, trying to get a description of the vehicle and the identity of the man to figure out what his role might have been, get the pathogy report, look for any evidence at the crime scene (like DNA, which would mean also getting hold of the teens DNA), try to link whatever weapons were used to the teens, and again scouring the remote area for surveillance footage to try to figure in which direction this unknown vehicle driven by the possible suspects might have headed. At the same time, they would have been investigating the other murders to see if they were linked.

It was not a simple process of a detective taking one look at this confused crime scene and announcing to the public that a pair of rampaging teens were on the loose. This might have been something completely unrelated to them. I don't know what evidence they got to link them to Dr. Dyck's murder, but it had to be sufficient to satisfy a judge, as we've been discussing.

 

[Moriarty]

So it sounds to me like they really did think Kam and Bryer were missing in those first days, or at least weren't convinced they were the killers. Especially since the public wasn't told anything about "extremely dangerous -- do not approach" or "they are wanted for questioning" until Kam and Bryer were already in the wilderness.

Seems like it. Of course, they also used air services, police dogs and "...some of the best search and rescue personnel in the country" (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/military-pulling-out-of-search-for-bc-fugitives-1.5231687) when they were searching the Gillam-area when they were considered dangerous and suspects.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks for the clarification. I am familiar with the proximity of the cities to the island; I used to be a software trainer and got sent all over that area in a different organization each week.

That said, this is just one article and I am sure Vancouver Island has its own version of these problems. Also, considering the global connectivity of "gangs", I'm sure that there are no geographical borders that determine where they function and recruit from. I was born and raised in New York City and then my parents moved 29 miles away to New Jersey. The gang and drug world "pull" on suburban kids was strong, even though they didn't live in New York City proper. I personally knew a few people who lived (and died) in that world in their early twenties, who I'd attended high school with - in an upper middle-class town.

Yes I agree, illegal drugs are available virtually everywhere and the sale is always gang affiliated. Illegal weapons are also confiscated in virtually every drug bust.

It’s the same here too, gang members look to recruit suburban kids and to some, the sense of belonging is initially an attraction. While it hasn’t been stated gang affiliation was involved as a possible source of guns in this case, neither has it been ruled out.

 

[MistyWaters]

The police didn't tell the families any more information than we have about why they thought Kam and Bryer did it, during a three-week manhunt that involved the military, one of the largest in Canadian history. They had helicopters hunting down Kam and Bryer and wouldn't tell their families what evidence implicated them in three homicides. Why would they suddenly start being forthcoming with information now? That isn't how they've operated the entire time.

Also as I said in my previous post (#719), Bryer's mom's side of the family must have leaked the information about the goodbye video, because they were the only ones who initially saw it and clearly weren't in contact with Bryer's dad. The motive for leaking it which makes the most sense is that they were trying to get the public to pressure the RCMP to release more information, using the only leverage they had.

And the RCMP even said that they were going to release information to the families when the report was done and then immediately release it to the public, which indicates that the families weren't going to get much more than that before the report was done.

I highly doubt their families know much more than we do at this point.



So it sounds to me like they really did think Kam and Bryer were missing in those first days, or at least weren't convinced they were the killers. Especially since the public wasn't told anything about "extremely dangerous -- do not approach" or "they are wanted for questioning" until Kam and Bryer were already in the wilderness.

Police never release evidence to anyone prior to an arrest, certainly not to family members of the suspect. That’s an impossible expectation. I doubt if that occurs in the US either, unless witnesses speak out to the media. But in this case there were no witnesses to any of the three murders.

The RCMP couldn’t have predicted the two would be found dead by suicide. Evidence is always withheld prior to an arrest and later disclosed during the trial. One major reason for this is to ensure impartiality of the jury.

ETA - typo

 

[Satchie]

The RCMP could’ve have predicted the two would be found dead by suicide. Evidence is always withheld prior to an arrest and later disclosed during the trial. One major reason for this is to ensure impartiality of the jury.

I think you meant to type " Police couldn't have predicted" they would commit suicide.

I agree about not releasing info to the suspect's family: someone might be in secret contact with the suspect and pass it along!

 

[MistyWaters]

I think by July 21 police strongly suspected the scenario that they later declared, but they had to gather the evidence sufficient to prove it, and try to track the teens through other means, before they laid the charges and brought the public in.

Police had to track down the ownership of the truck and what it would have looked like before it was burned, identify the teens as having been using it, make contact with all family and friends to find out whether anyone was in contact with them, obtain cellphone and banking info to try to locate their current wherabouts, get their current photos and track their previous movements on surveillance video to confirm that 1. They were driving the truck the day before it was burned ie it hadn't, for eg, been stolen in Whitehorse and driven south by someone else and 2. Confirm there was no avenues open to locate them other than going to the media and declaring them missing. They made that declaration late evening July 21.

Meanwhile, they were trying to find proof to link them to the murdered man and the presumably stolen car. They'd be looking for witnesses, eg interviewing nearby campers, trying to get a description of the vehicle and the identity of the man to figure out what his role might have been, get the pathogy report, look for any evidence at the crime scene (like DNA, which would mean also getting hold of the teens DNA), try to link whatever weapons were used to the teens, and again scouring the remote area for surveillance footage to try to figure in which direction this unknown vehicle driven by the possible suspects might have headed. At the same time, they would have been investigating the other murders to see if they were linked.

It was not a simple process of a detective taking one look at this confused crime scene and announcing to the public that a pair of rampaging teens were on the loose. This might have been something completely unrelated to them. I don't know what evidence they got to link them to Dr. Dyck's murder, but it had to be sufficient to satisfy a judge, as we've been discussing.

I agree, any expectation that police ought to have immediately known a pair of rampaging teens were on the loose isn’t reality. Given none of the three bodies were readily identifiable because their ID had been stolen slows down an investigation as well because if there had been a connection between the three victims, that points the investigation in a totally different direction than rampaging teen killers who were strangers.

One of the reasons why I think by June 21st the RCMP had strong suspicions B&K might be suspects regarded comments made by B’s grandmother. She said she last talked to B on July 13th or 14th and without a source mentioned, believed the two had arrived in Whitehorse but it wasn’t what they hoped it would be and were leaving in a few days. By July 21st the RCMP would’ve had time to determine the location that contact was made from and if not from Whitehorse, the question becomes why would they lie to create an alibi placing them nowhere near Laird Hot Springs on July 14th, and possibly later nowhere near Dease Lake. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think you meant to type " Police couldn't have predicted" they would commit suicide.

I agree about not releasing info to the suspect's family: someone might be in secret contact with the suspect and pass it along!

Thanks, yes that’s my mistake, they couldn’t have.

 

[Kubirai]

Looks like GH was right. My mistake everyone.

The original photographer may not be Mike Stack, but someone he knows. It is not clear why that area was blurred, unless the photographer saw something that isn't visible in the photos.

 

[sandbar]

But I bet Lucas's father has. Don't you think he looked into that, quite thoroughly?

I would bet the exact opposite, because LF's father is a cop. He, of all people, would understand about maintaining the integrity of the investigation, the dangers of releasing incorrect or unverified information, and about the need for a thorough investigation. I bet he's not expecting any special privileges.

 

[katydid23]

I would bet the exact opposite, because LF's father is a cop. He, of all people, would understand about maintaining the integrity of the investigation, the dangers of releasing incorrect or unverified information, and about the need for a thorough investigation. I bet he's not expecting any special privileges.

I don't know about that.
Investigators do not share info with anyone, including families---except they do often share info with other investigators. Only another investigator would know how to keep that info close to the vest.

I am pretty sure they would have told him what the evidence consisted of, in his own son's murder. JMO

 

[sandbar]

Bryer's grandmother's brief statements to the press,

Hi, do you have a link? I've never heard that Gramma spoke.

 

[zinny77]

I don't know about that.
Investigators do not share info with anyone, including families---except they do often share info with other investigators. Only another investigator would know how to keep that info close to the vest.

I am pretty sure they would have told him what the evidence consisted of, in his own son's murder. JMO

How disrespectful for Chynna's and Leonard's families if they only shared that kind of info with Lucas father because he is an inspector. I don't think RCMP would do that. JMO

 

[katydid23]

How disrespectful for Chynna's and Leonard's family if they only shared that kind of info with Lucas father because he is an inspector. I don't think RCMP would do that. JMO

Not at all.
It is professional courtesy. Investigators work with each other from other countries quite often.

Even if he wasn't the father, they might speak to him about the case as a professional exchange between other precincts.

It is a brotherhood. JMO

 

[sandbar]

I don't know about that.
Investigators do not share info with anyone, including families---except they do often share info with other investigators. Only another investigator would know how to keep that info close to the vest.

I am pretty sure they would have told him what the evidence consisted of, in his own son's murder. JMO

LF's father, in this situation, isn't a police officer, he's a grieving parent, and he said as much right off the top of his PC. A grieving parent isn't capable of investigating or participating in an investigation into the death of their child. A grieving brain doesn't work that way. Again, I believe he knows this. But maybe we'll have to agree to disagree...

 

[zinny77]

Not at all.
It is professional courtesy. Investigators work with each other from other countries quite often.

Even if he wasn't the father, they might speak to him about the case as a professional exchange between other precincts.

It is a brotherhood. JMO

It doesn't sound proffessional to me. They have 3 families here. From 3 different countries. They can't spit in the face of 2 families because "meh, too bad for them, but broterhood, you know". JMO obviously.