Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #20

[zinny77]

Nobody saw it coming from these nice young teenagers, either, … but there you go...

I am not saying that they are innocent so that video is irrelevant.

My point is just that some people seem to discuss Bryer being a misfit, a blood thirsty psychopath, completely messed up or anything else like it is an absolute fact and therefore it proves their theories. I'm just saying. It's your opinion, you are obviously entitled to it. But it is not an indisputable fact that Bryer was that.

 

[Grouper]

People see what they want to see. JMO.

I’ve heard numerous accounts from people who actually knew them that were kind, thoughtful, sweet, wanted to help their friends, cared about others, were good to talk to. Both of them. I have serious doubts about just how much the media is sensationalizing certain facts to milk a story.

People with good things to say might be afraid to come out into the open because of the media circus. Imagine the abuse they would publicly suffer, under the hands of people who are convinced of their guilt (and thus erasing them as persons beyond the crimes).

I’ll say it again. People see what they want to see. JMO.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Neither Kam or Bryer has characteristics of being a psychopath.

I agree. Robert Hare, PhD, considered one of the world's foremost experts on psychopathy, is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of British Columbia. In 1980 he developed a psychopathy checklist for researchers. It is now the gold standard used by researchers, forensic clinicians and the justice system to identify the hallmark traits and behaviors that make psychopaths chillingly unique.

A proper diagnosis can only be given by a medical professional and anything else is speculation.

While we don’t know a great deal about them and only going by what we do know – and I’m definitely not a medical professional – I thought it would be interesting to see how they scored. I went through this checklist and marked it on the harsh side and they fell well short of falling into the psychopath category.

 

[Grouper]

I’d like to pose a completely random question — this is something I’ve been wondering for a while now:

How severe is the darkness at night, in northern B.C.? Is it pitch black, or is there a fair amount of stellar illumination?

Would a person be able to walk to up to a van in the middle of the night and see it clearly, or would it be silhouetted in the dark? And (harder question to answer of course) could someone look into a van window and see people inside?

Asking partially because of Alandra Hull’s account, partially because of other things I’m curious about.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I think the murder of Lucas and Chynna was likely what is called a 'thrill kill'.

There have been pointless murders by pairs of very close young men where, in retrospect, one appears to have been a psychopath and the other a devoted admirer, who egg each other on where they might not kill on their own.. They turn to crime because they like to imagine they can live outside social rules, and because it makes them feel powerful. The famous case was Leopold and Loeb: They also were 18 and 19 years old. They kidnapped and murdered a boy just to prove their perceived superiority by committing the perfect crime. Eric Harris and Dylan Krebold, the Columbine shooters. were 17 and 18, Harris has been labelled a psychopath who was contemptuous of everyone else and wanted to prove his superiority by blowing up the whole school (but failed). Dellen Millard and Mark Smich appear to have had a similar dynamic, I think, where Millard was supremely arrogant and Smich was his admiring sidekick.

Some articles have described KM and BS as spree killers. I’m not qualified to give an opinion about that but I watched an interesting show on the CI channel recently much of which was devoted to spree killers. A leading criminologist, a forensic psychologist who has worked within the prison system for many years, together with several other forensic psychologists provided some interesting insights into this particular class of killer. (Spree killers are defined as killing 2 or more people without a cooling-off period, or over a short period of time, in different locations.) Here are some of their comments.

Spree killers usually commit random assaults against people they don’t know.
They want to get revenge from either individuals or society in general.
Many of them often perceive themselves to be victims.
Spree killing may start as perceived justified killing of someone who has wronged them, or a number of people who have wronged them, and it can escalate into random persons.
The motive is typically revenge to redress the perceived injustice, and once they’ve exacted that revenge, they don’t tend to keep seeking out other victims.
They have issues throughout their lives but don’t deal with them like normal people do.
They tend to take things personally which they internalise. Over time, they’re like a volcano that is bubbling beneath the surface.
Their behaviour becomes a bit more erratic or random over a period of time until the day they wake up and decide to wreak carnage on others.
One of the characteristics of spree killers is an aim to commit suicide by either putting a bullet in their own head or “suicide by cops” where the police will kill them.

I also read an article that said that they will also kill others who will meet their personal needs at the time. In other words, they will kill for money, drugs, or other items if need be.

(The FBI doesn’t include spree killers as a separate category any longer as distinct from serial killers. They felt the cooling-off period which had previously defined spree killers created arbitrary guidelines which didn’t provide any real benefit for use by law enforcement, however psychologists still find the term useful).

 

[JudgeJudi]

I think Kam and Bryer had a very effortless bond with one another. Like a soulmate bond. I love those kinds of friendships and they are incredibly rare. I've only had a couple of them throughout the years but I absolutely cherish them.

Even though we don’t know a lot about BS and KM’s relationship, I would describe them more as soulmates rather than best friends too.

Soulmates often see their relationship as "us against the world." They feel so linked together that they're ready and willing to take on any feat of life, so long as they have their soulmate by their side. Soulmates can be completely and honestly who they are. Their bond is much harder to break and they’re more accepting of each other’s strengths and weaknesses. Soulmate relationships are founded on compromise and unity above all else, and they can be platonic.

 

[Valiant]

There has been a lot of discussion about the broken glass from the rear window of the van.
It's been said the glass from the window was outside the van. I see three scenarios:
1. If the right rear door was closed, the impact that shattered the window likely came from inside. No matter what the impact was, an impact from the outside means most glass falls inside the van.
2. If the right rear door was open, the impact could have come from either side of the glass and the glass would fall outside the van.
3. The door could have been opened after the impact already happened and additional glass fell when the door moved.
I'm not aware of any pictures of the glass as it fell to determine which scenario is likely.

 

[Runningforthewind]

I just don't have any idea what happened. I can't make sense of anything they did. They might not have left Port Alberni to kill. It might be a drug run, robbery, something else gone awfully wrong and it spiralled out of controle. Heck, I am even open to think someone else killed Chynna and Lucas and Leonard was an accident. I just have no idea.

This is how I feel. I just don't see how these two boys planned any of this. This is a case like no other I've seen. It isn't textbook anyway, so that is where my feels that they are innocent, at the very least of Chynna and Lucas's murder, because it doesn't make sense.

 

[Runningforthewind]

You might find an example out there, but at the end of the day, their crime doesn't fit any teenage killer one (school shooting, mass shooting, crime in their hometown, killing a member of their family- when it is said Bryer was fantasising about it), it doesn't fit a serial killer profile, a spree killing profile. I don't see any signs of a psychopath/folower duo. I don't even see any white incel angry guys signs.

100% this..... This is what I've been trying to say. The whole case doesn't make sense. There is no pattern, there thinking patterns, their actions, in my honest opinion, don't make a lot of sense.

 

[zinny77]

Sorry. Mistake.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

Fait enough.

But I am surprised that someone so mentally ill and disturbed would manage to only put 3 or 4 questionable (really, REALLY questionable, I'll admit) pictures of himself on social media and offend 3 or 4 people in the span of 4 or 5 years. And manage to get many gamer friends and people in real life describe him as positively as they did (and there are many people, they are just being erased when people describe Bryer's personality on here and he just become a loner with no friends or social interraction who only spoke to yell his love of Hitler. Which doesn't seem to be true when you read what people thought of him JMO).

I would think his social media and social life would be full to the brim of people describing their bad experiences with Bryer. But it isn't the case. Obviously, people could have just decided not to speak publicly, but same could be said about people being scared to speak positively of him publicly (more likely actually). And we can't really presume something if it isn't being said.

So, IMO, Bryer was nothing like I see him described here or in the media . I don't see any signs pointing to sociopath, psychopath or resentful loner JMO. A teenager who might have need a talk about what is appropriate or not. someone that might have need help and guidance. Sure. But not the anti social hermit with no social skills he is being made to be JMO

Good Point!!!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I studied it closely and to me it looked like it was broken from the outside. There was no glass fragments on the bumper or ground - Granted the police could've cleaned it up but I doubt it b/c this was the photos with the bodies in it so I would imagine they would've removed/covered the bodies before cleaning up the glass. Just my take.

Yes, Gray Hughes did post a video entitled "Lucas Fowler & Chynna Deese Timeline and What it Suggests" where someone had filmed the crime scene after the bodies had been removed. In that video at 5:50 he shows a photo of the rear of the van that also shows the blurred bodies. He points out the broken glass on the ground and adds that there wasn't a lot, but as it is a photo (he has the original), you can't see it clearly. Not everyone wants to see the bodies so I’ve taken a screenshot of the photo and have cropped them out and have also underlined in red immediately below the broken glass.

 

[CinNC]

DBM

 

[PrimeSuspect]

100% this..... This is what I've been trying to say. The whole case doesn't make sense. There is no pattern, there thinking patterns, their actions, in my honest opinion, don't make a lot of sense.

Killing random strangers is never going to make sense, even to harden cops. When the evidence is produced that BS and KM are the perpetrators of the 3 murders, it still won't make sense because no one can get inside their minds, especially now they're dead.

Harris and Klebold had a very close relationship, both were described by other students as nice, friendly and likable guys, Harris revealed a more hostile nature closer to the day of the shootings. Harris, the extroverted, social but geeky guy, Klebold, the opposite, shy and reserved geeky guy. Their journals revealed their warped thinking, their deepest and darkest thoughts were written in those pages. If KM or BS kept journals, their family, the police may have a window into their minds.

Lucas Fowler's father, Chief Inspector Fowler, had his officers working with the RCMP, I don't believe for a second he'd abandoned the quest for his son's killer/s if he didn't have direct evidence that pointed to KM and BS as the perpetrators. I also believe KM's and BS's family (AS is kept temporarily in the dark for obvious reasons) accept their sons were responsible, it's the public who are left to the last, as it should be. jmo

 

[CinNC]

SBM

They might not have left Port Alberni to kill. It might be a drug run, robbery, something else gone awfully wrong and it spiralled out of controle.

Interesting idea. When they told family they were going where there was money to be made in the Yukon, perhaps they weren't referring to mainstream jobs. Could they have agreed to make a drug run, which went awry in every possible way - resulting in murders and car theft, as stated in your post?

I've often wondered whether they were in some way connected to the guy who stopped his Jeep and had the exchange with C&L the evening prior to their murders. Perhaps C&L were approached about getting involved, transporting drugs, giving one or some of them a ride - and they said no. At that point, they would know too much, and, well -- we all know the outcome.

 

[zinny77]

Lucas Fowler's father, Chief Inspector Fowler, had his officers working with the RCMP, I don't believe for a second he'd abandoned the quest for his son's killer/s if he didn't have direct evidence that pointed to KM and BS as the perpetrators. I also believe KM's and BS's family (AS is kept temporarily in the dark for obvious reasons) accept their sons were responsible, it's the public who are left to the last, as it should be. jmo

Am I the only one that feels slightly uncomfortable that the father of one victim got so much say in another country's investigation? I know he works in the police and I don't want to be disrespectful. But there were 5 families involved and none of them should be that involved in the case. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Fait enough.

But I am surprised that someone so mentally ill and disturbed would manage to only put 3 or 4 questionable (really, REALLY questionable, I'll admit) pictures of himself on social media and offend 3 or 4 people in the span of 4 or 5 years. And manage to get many gamer friends and people in real life describe him as positively as they did (and there are many people, they are just being erased when people describe Bryer's personality on here and he just become a loner with no friends or social interraction who only spoke to yell his love of Hitler. Which doesn't seem to be true when you read what people thought of him JMO).

I would think his social media and social life would be full to the brim of people describing their bad experiences with Bryer. But it isn't the case. Obviously, people could have just decided not to speak publicly, but same could be said about people being scared to speak positively of him publicly (more likely actually). And we can't really presume something if it isn't being said.

So, IMO, Bryer was nothing like I see him described here or in the media . I don't see any signs pointing to sociopath, psychopath or resentful loner JMO. A teenager who might have need a talk about what is appropriate or not. someone that might have need help and guidance. Sure. But not the anti social hermit with no social skills he is being made to be JMO

The vast majority of media reports containing comments about K and B by friends, acquaintances or family members (excluding AS) came during the time the two were only considered missing, prior to the RCMPs announcement declaring them armed and dangerous suspects on July 23rd. Between the 19th and 23rd for all anyone knew they were only missing, perhaps murdered by the same person who killed LD, maybe kidnapped, wandering lost in the bush having escaped a madman, or were safe hundreds of miles away, the truck and camper either sold or stolen.

During those first few days nobody is going to speak poorly of missing persons because the best outcome would’ve been for them to have been found alive and well, having escaped some sort of horrible crisis, innocent of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Later, I strongly disagree that SM would be rife with stories of diabolical interactions. Anyone with information would’ve had the opportunity to talk to police. Otherwise I’d imagine friends and acquaintances are feeling absolutely devastated about what occurred and seeking SM notoriety only because they knew K and B is the exact opposite of grief, sadness and maybe even guilt in their own behaviour or by not having recognizing red flags.

Those who are personally connected to this horrible tragedy are no doubt experiencing personal emotions quite apart from the distanced general public who have been following this case somewhat like a dramatic movie, waiting to hear the ending. I have no expectation upon either SM or MSM to the story because they don’t know the facts.

The absence of information cannot support an accurate theory IMO.

 

[Runningforthewind]

The absence of information cannot support an accurate theory IMO.

That is more reason I believe they are innocent. Canada is a country where one is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

That literally describes 80 to 90 percent of kids in high school though...

Also, my understanding of how other teen killers were perceived before their crime differs from yours. I haven't studied it in depth I must say, but in none of the other cases did it came as such an out of the blue shock for the people around them.

You might find an example out there, but at the end of the day, their crime doesn't fit any teenage killer one (school shooting, mass shooting, crime in their hometown, killing a member of their family- when it is said Bryer was fantasising about it), it doesn't fit a serial killer profile, a spree killing profile. I don't see any signs of a psychopath/folower duo. I don't even see any white incel angry guys signs.

Had Bryer taken a gun and started to shoot people in his town, I wouldn't even give it a second thought to be honest. But that is not what happened. So I am utterly confused.

The killings were shocking and disturbing but I haven't read anywhere folks are shocked it was KM and BS, not even from their own parents.
It mightn't fit your opinion of a 'killing profile' but that doesn't make them innocent, it's an opinion like any other, that isn't proof they're not responsible. The evidence has been collected, thoroughly and forensically examined, we can speculate all we like, it's not going to change the outcome or make KM and BS somehow unique, they're actually not.

AS said BS felt there was no hope, BS threatened a student with beheading, he expressed suicidal ideation by the gun in the mouth pic so I assume he suffered with depression, no great leap there, but besides that, there isn't enough information about these 2 young men, especially KM, it's the brutality of the crimes leading people to form opinions about the killers pathology. jmo

 

[zinny77]

Also a lot of the things I read clearly stated the they couldn't imagine them doing something like that so definitely after they were named suspects