Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[LoisLane]

Perhaps it is in error, but according to this article it was confirmed by police. No correction has been issued to that part and that article has been out for quite a few days now. The only correction that has been made was to updated that the PAL belonged to KM. You don't need a PAL to hunt in Canada. You need that to own a gun. You need only a Hunting Licence to hunt and you can be in possession of and fire a gun while hunting as long as you are with an individual holding a valid PAL. If his dad had a PAL, it certainly could be AS and Bryer who did the hunting there as the article notes the police confirmed

I do think it was KM who had a familial connection with Alberta, perhaps Manitoba too, but he had none at the location they ended up at.

She is also the only reporter who has stated it. I may have to give the presser another listen and see if it came up in the q&a. I’m skeptical of the black press reporting though so it would be great to have this clarified.

 

[Vern]

the Airsoft was in reference to the only gun that Al said Bryer had. He gave it to him as a gift, so that Bryer would 'play in the woods' with his friends. I know it isn't a 'hunting rifle'.. Al was incensed that anyone would even question him along the lines of him providing his son with a real shootem up rifle.

The Airsoft is not in the article , but it is in Al's interview.

SO that is the conundrum, you see? that article, where it says Al and Bry went hunting up to the Yukon , and Al saying live on tv that he would never give his son a real gun. …

How do we work that one out? .. I'm going with what Al said , live from his own little lips.

Al was in a conundrum at the suggestion that "he would give a real gun to his son (to own)".

As far as we know, he didn't; he did give his son an airsoft gun.

"Not giving one's child a real gun (to own)" does not equate "would not take my son hunting with a real gun".

I don't see any conundrum - owning a "real gun" given by your father and hunting with one are two different beasts entirely.

 

[NJSleuth91]

My belief that AS did in fact care, and was doing his best to spend one on one time with his son, despite everything, is cemented by the following excerpt regarding he and Bryer hunting "a number of times" in the same Yukon area that the boys were confirmed to be sighted at between the murders of Lucas & Chynna and that of Leonard.

https://www.nelsonstar.com/news/dou...ix-facts-about-b-c-s-triple-homicide-manhunt/

That's numerous long voyages to take to go hunting with a son you really don't care about. These boys spent two days in that area between the two murder scenes - their longest "pause" in one area throughout the entire saga (until, of course they ran out of real estate in Manitoba). Someone had a connection to it - perhaps exactly because this is where he got to spend some actual quality time with his dad at.​

​

That article mixed up Kam and Bryer multiple times. I'm 100% positive it was actually Kam who went hunting with his dad for a number of reasons.

a) I doubt Bryer's dad could have a gun with his criminal and mental health history.
b) I doubt Bryer's dad had the capital or wherewithal to plan a whole trip considering he was homeless and living out of a van for the past two years.
c) I doubt Bryer's other side of the family would have allowed him to go on a hunting trip with his dad to such a remote area, given the history.
d) Kam's family was known to be heavily involved in outdoor activities, whereas Bryer's family wasn't as far as we know. Kam's family also had more money and from what I've heard things are expensive in the Yukon.
e) Kam already had a PAL while Bryer didn't as far as we know.
f) I remember reading in an article somewhere that Bryer had never been off Vancouver Island before this.

 

[Seattle1]

Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #21

From prior thread -- where was it reported that Kam's body was recovered leaning against a tree? TIA

 

[JudgeJudi]

Any predator would have realized they were "captive prey", and trapped at the bottom of that river bank.

But earlier they were the predators and their captive prey were the three deceased, all of whom were either trapped in their vehicle or close to it. What goes around comes around. Karma.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hackett responding to some questions following the presser:

This is so upsetting to type.

Q. You mentioned that there had been an escalation in the violence to the victims. Can you talk about that?

A. Well again, not knowing exactly what’s in the mind of the individuals and whether it’s some type of a predetermined planned escalation – what we can say is that there was a, there was a, there was a marked difference in the amount of violence that was used in, in the [big intake of breath followed by a sigh] in the Fowler / Deese homicides and then the subsequent killing of Mr Dyck.

Q. There was a lot of violence?
A. Right.


Q. Could you reiterate again or elaborate on the primary evidence that ties all these crime scenes together. You spoke about (ui) evidence.

A. The primary evidence – and I’m not going to get into all the evidence – it’s pretty well articulated in that document – but the most significant piece obviously is the weapons, the rounds, being the ballistic evidence, and then the seized – obviously the fact that we’ve recovered weapons that match the ballistics of both crime scenes – the fact that the individuals were seen in a vehicle matching Mr Dyck’s vehicle through the video. Again, we didn’t have an opportunity to confirm that until we recovered the burnt vehicle and examined the VIN.

 

[Ondeckc]

It has been reported that AS was not in Bryer's life from the age of 8 to 16. Then he stated Bryer worked construction with him a few months. After that he visited Bryer a weekend a month.

I have a 16 year old son, who as he as grown, has changed in so many ways. The teenage years are very difficult for some children, even with 2 loving, proactive parents involved. I find it hard to believe AS really knew what made Bryer tick. I think AS saw in Bryer what he wanted to see and blamed whatever faults he had on the system. I think Bryer could manipulate AS to get whatever he wanted, and did it very well.

 

[sprucetip]

I also believe Bryer was likely the one who shot Leonard. I remember back to the witness who said a man came out of the passenger seat of a truck. I think if that sighting was them, that it was likely Bryer then because I do believe Bryer was always the passanger in the truck, so if the situation was similar, I do believe he would be the one to sneak up on Mr.Dyck.

I agree, probably the same MO as the stalking/hunting behaviour earlier. I think they learned from their mistakes and adapted as needed.

The route just baffles me though. They hung around Whitehorse for 3 days! Why? What did they do here? Where did they sleep? Were they waiting for the news to hit?

Then, after leaving, they could have gone up the North Klondike Highway (to Dawson) or the Haines Highway once they hit HJ, but stuck to the Alaska highway. When they hit HJ, they would have seen the sign to go to Fairbanks or Haines and chose Fairbanks(much further). We’re they just driving until they spotted someone camped out alone on the side of the road?

And the cowboy hat is peculiar because it doesn’t nothing to alter their appearance, instead it makes them stand out.

That article mixed up Kam and Bryer multiple times. I'm 100% positive it was actually Kam who went hunting with his dad for a number of reasons.

a) I doubt Bryer's dad could have a gun with his criminal and mental health history.
b) I doubt Bryer's dad had the capital or wherewithal to plan a whole trip considering he was homeless and living out of a van for the past two years.
c) I doubt Bryer's other side of the family would have allowed him to go on a hunting trip with his dad to such a remote area, given the history.
d) Kam's family was known to be heavily involved in outdoor activities, whereas Bryer's family wasn't as far as we know. Kam's family also had more money and from what I've heard things are expensive in the Yukon.
e) Kam already had a PAL while Bryer didn't as far as we know.
f) I remember reading in an article somewhere that Bryer had never been off Vancouver Island before this.

Definitely makes sense that it was KM and family, not BS.

Add the fact that you can’t hunt in the Yukon without a guide or outfitter if you aren’t a resident. So the $$ factor would play into this, highly doubt Al could afford it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Whatever else they may or may not have been, they definitely fall within the description of disorganised killers.

Disorganized crimes are not planned and the criminals typically leave evidence such as fingerprints or blood at the scene of the murder.
There is often no attempt to move or otherwise conceal the corpse after the murder.

Disorganized criminals may be young, under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or mentally ill.

They often have deficient communication and social skills and may be below average in intelligence.

The disorganized offender is likely to come from an unstable or dysfunctional family.

Significantly, disorganized killers will often “blitz” their victims—that is, use sudden and overwhelming force to assault them. The victim’s body is usually left where the attack took place and the killer makes no attempt to hide it.

Organized Versus Disorganized Serial Predators

Sound familiar? While we know next to nothing about KM, we do know a lot more about Bryer.

“Traits of a Sociopath

Researchers tend to believe that sociopathy is the result of environmental factors, such as a child or teen’s upbringing in a very negative household that resulted in physical abuse, emotional abuse, or childhood trauma.

Sociopaths, in general, tend to be more impulsive and erratic in their behavior than their psychopath counterparts. While also having difficulties in forming attachments to others, some sociopaths may be able to form an attachment to a like-minded group or person. [BS’s online gaming friends and KM]. Unlike psychopaths, most sociopaths don’t hold down long-term jobs or present much of a normal family life to the outside world.

When a sociopath engages in criminal behavior, they may do so in an impulsive and largely unplanned manner, with little regard for the risks or consequences of their actions. They may become agitated and angered easily, sometimes resulting in violent outbursts. These kinds of behaviors increase a sociopath’s chances of being apprehended.”

Differences Between a Psychopath vs Sociopath

DSM-5 lists both sociopathy and psychopathy under the heading of Antisocial Personality Disorders (ASPD). These disorders share many common behavioral traits that lead to confusion between them. Key traits that sociopaths and psychopaths have in common include:

• A disregard for laws and social mores
• A disregard for the rights of others
• A failure to feel remorse or guilt
• A tendency to display violent behaviour

IMO BS has the profile of a sociopath.

Psychologists often say “sociopaths are made, psychopaths are born”.

 

[SovereignSnake]

What's your theory that Bryer shot Leonard?

My theory on Bryer being the shooter of Leonard is based on several things. In the days since the report came out I've wondered, if initially Kam was going to play the acting chauffeur for Bryer and he would stay in the truck as backup and let Bryer do the killings. One possible scenario with Chynna and Lucas for example would be they rolled up that night, Kam stayed in the truck, Bryer got out alone, but when they realized it was two people and not just one, Kam jumped out to act as backup and they both opened fire. That first press conference held by the RCMP a reporter asked Hackett to verify their were 6 shell casings found at the scene but in the Final Report it states there were both spent and unspent shell casings found. I do know one of those SKS Rifles is capable of firing off six rounds in a matter of seconds from one clip so it is possible only one gun was used on both Chynna and Lucas but you'd better be a pretty sharp shooter. Obviously they tested if both guns were fired, which they were, but that doesn't necessarily mean both guns were used on Lucas and Chynna. Perhaps Kam never fired at the Chynna and Lucas scene and it was only Bryer unloading one gun. We don't know for certain. Again, this is just a theory and Kam and Bryer just as easily could have made their first murder a joint effort. Kam may have even been turned off by killing anyone himself and wanted to watch or if he did assist in shooting Lucas and Chynna it bothered him enough, he would quietly let Bryer take future responsibility. Not saying Kam flat out refused, but insisted Bryer handle the murders. Maybe Bryer even preferred. We don't know. Anyway, a few nights later when they made their second attempt West of Haines Junction, it was Bryer who go out of the truck with one of the guns and Kam stayed behind as driver. That was foiled thankfully. Still, I do wonder if Bryer wanted second chance after failing the previous night. Which brings us to the night of Leonard. I won't rule out that they could have hit him with the pickup, but then I got to thinking, the size of that Dodge alone would have left serious injuries to anyone they hit, perhaps even broken bones. Yet the description of Leonard's body was only "bruises and burns." If not for car trouble, there could have been some DNA evidence left on the truck and camper and would also explain why they burned it. They possibly also feared or got paranoid that the pickup was just too identifiable to continue driving, not to mention expensive on gas especially hauling that camper on the back and decided it needed to be abandoned. I do suspect however, they discovered Leonard parked, drove by, turned round, then drove back up the road to that pullout where they would later burn the Dodge and Camper. I think they walked the ditch that whole length back to Leonard as to not attract any attention or make noise. That may also explain why the Coffee Crisp wrapper was in the ditch along the way in between. Eating while walking. Again, not certain. It could just as well been tossed out the window on the way back to park the pickup after they found Leonard parked at his pullout. Something tells me Bryer initiated the attack on Leonard and Kam held back as support, which he did I do believe provide. I just get more of a showoff, reckless attitude from Bryer. Then I look at the surveillance footage that has been released. Notice Bryer is not wearing his camo in the Dease Lake Super A footage on the afternoon of the 18th. But then the following late afternoon of the 20th in Fairview he's wearing it, as well as the infamous Meadow Lake video footage the day after that. In all three public photos Kam is still dressed in street clothes donning his Cathulu shirt. That's not to say he couldn't have just thrown on a camo jacket during the night shootings and by day he dressed casually but it's been another thing that's stuck out in my mind. In other words, it seemed Bryer was in his military mode the night of the 18th onward. Yet I noticed he's wearing black sweatpants and that "Flash Dance" shirt.. (not quite sure what was up with that) in the Dease Lake photo and a t-shirt and blue jeans in the Whitehorse photo with the gas can on the 15th. Of course they could have always changed clothes at anytime on the fly. But I got the impression he was more in soldier mode after they fled and Kam didn't get dressed up in survival gear until they arrived in Sundance. In fact I bet he was still wearing Cathulhu when they got pulled over in Split Lake. I'm sure he changed clothes, but he was probably wearing the same outfits for 3-4 days at a time before changing. I hope he was changing...

 

[SovereignSnake]

I agree, probably the same MO as the stalking/hunting behaviour earlier. I think they learned from their mistakes and adapted as needed.

The route just baffles me though. They hung around Whitehorse for 3 days! Why? What did they do here? Where did they sleep? Were they waiting for the news to hit?

Then, after leaving, they could have gone up the North Klondike Highway (to Dawson) or the Haines Highway once they hit HJ, but stuck to the Alaska highway. When they hit HJ, they would have seen the sign to go to Fairbanks or Haines and chose Fairbanks(much further). We’re they just driving until they spotted someone camped out alone on the side of the road?

And the cowboy hat is peculiar because it doesn’t nothing to alter their appearance, instead it makes them stand out.


Definitely makes sense that it was KM and family, not BS.

Add the fact that you can’t hunt in the Yukon without a guide or outfitter if you aren’t a resident. So the $$ factor would play into this, highly doubt Al could afford it.

They very likely could have spent all that time looking for another victim, but part of me wonders if they were actually going to attempt to look for jobs in Whitehorse like they had originally said and pretend like they didn't just kill two people. I know it sounds completely ridiculous but it's possible. They also probably realized that the finding a job with very little experience, having to apply in person, no resume, no major work history, perhaps no way to apply online or do searches from their phones (no signal) (we know Bryer certainly didn't have one) and being more or less homeless completely sucked and wasn't going to work out. But for what it's worth, they did have a camper to sleep in and that beats sleeping in a tent or on a park bench any night. That's an interesting point about the hunting thing too, I never took into account they won't let a non-resident hunt without a guide or an outfitter and that gets ridiculously expensive. I have to wonder too, if Kam's Dad did take him up there hunting, if they only went a couple times together. Perhaps his Dad was a big hunter, took Kam and tried to get him into it so they had something to bond over but ultimately it wasn't Kam's "jam" so to speak.

 

[CinNC]

I’m catching up and just have to say that I felt pretty sad reading comments judging the killers’ parents and families. It’s beginning to feel like some are caught up in the thrill of the debate and forgetting that these are real human beings and victims of these terrible crimes. They have to face the unspeakable facts of what their CHILDREN were capable of and will never get a reprieve from all the weight behind that.

Parenting any child is tough. Parents of mentally ill children walk an especially painful and lonely road that I would not wish on anyone. I can’t even fathom the pain and doubt of parenting children like BS and KM.

If you haven’t walked a mile in the beat-up shoes of any of these devastated parents/guardians (and how could anyone have?) you have no right to judge their parenting, decisions, grief, outspokenness or silence. Full stop.

I’m new here and really expected more empathy and compassion from people who have been following this so closely. My opinion obviously.

About the only thing I can add to your thoughtful and "spot on" post is that there is something as bad as being the parent of a mentally ill child. That is being the step-parent of a mentally ill child. You take it on by choice, and have to be prepared to do battle with the system, sometimes the child, and even within the family itself. All the while being marginalized yourself as a newly minted member of an extended family who may not even want you there. To fight daily to advocate for the child and get NOWHERE. To get nowhere with advocacy resources, local and state bureaucracy, and the sacrifices and unpleasantries that take place every single day within the home and the other children present. I speak from personal experience.

I can't imagine the horror of BS and KM's families lives, now. Every waking moment for the rest of their lives, filled with ache, loss, pain and "what ifs". To not only lose their child, but to live with the ghastly, enduring legacy they have left behind. To know they raised a child who ultimately hurt people in the worst possible way because of the evil within them; an evil that was inches away from you and you never even saw. Untenable, at best. If it happened to me, I don't even know how I would manage to put one foot in front of the other each day.

 

[Pyecraft]

Whitehorse Daily Star: Suspects drove to Whitehorse after killing pair

Posting this article mainly for the few reader comments as a taste of local mood, found at the end of the article. Snipped from the piece:
'..... but ran into vehicle trouble that forced them to return to B.C. before they killed Dyck, police added'.
Is the only rational for this statement that of a highway witness-sighting of their vehicle parked with their hood up? Given the shaky witness stories throughout this sad tale, selecting this one as a neat fit into the later narrative reason for stealing the Rav4, seems contrived.

<modsnip: gun control discussion is not allowed at Websleuths>

Used be a time whereby if a bar waitress served you alcohol after seeing you'd were already
half-stewed, she was legally liable for any DUI you caused. Why aren't gun stores clerks held to a similar standard? Some tellers on their spree have reported an odd feeling about these two straight off. You'd expect the gun-store antennas would be even more highly tuned.

 

[ktm44]

Al was in a conundrum at the suggestion that "he would give a real gun to his son (to own)".

As far as we know, he didn't; he did give his son an airsoft gun.

"Not giving one's child a real gun (to own)" does not equate "would not take my son hunting with a real gun".

I don't see any conundrum - owning a "real gun" given by your father and hunting with one are two different beasts entirely.

He certainly could have borrowed a rifle but with AS history with the courts, it would be very unlikely he would have a PAL, which I believe you need for hunting tags.

 

[Jan424]

Yes, and though I do believe AS's suffering is genuine, I also think he's further victimizing his ex by his public comments against her. If we consider him to be a victim in this case, then we must consider BS's mother and grandmother to be victims as well. I know many people here are "taking his side" but it is possible to feel for him and also recognize that he has 10 years of harassment charges against him and that is very problematic.

We don't know her side of the story, we have no idea what she tried with her son or how/if she tried to help him. Maybe she really was afraid of her him? Perhaps in her mind, allowing her ex who had addictions along with mental health issues to have full access to Bryer wasn't in his best interest? Unless she speaks and tells her side of things we won't have any idea of what it was she went through with both her son and her ex.

You mirrored my thoughts exactly!

 

[CinNC]

Two parents , perhaps neither of them with any remarkable parenting skills, perhaps not many social skills, but you throw a psychopathic child into that mix, and the chaos that inevitably results is partly what you see in Al's eyes. Really, no one deserves that and there are many parents, not the majority, not even a great many but just many parents who live like this . Some families have more than one child affected.

Just plain horror, and Al can't seem to grasp where it emanated from.

Agree, agree, agree. He is trying to get a grip. I think you have to give him that. Some see it as fumbling, grasping, awkward - he is trying.

Who of us can even guess what his pain level is? How can we even guess what it is like to wake up to what he does, every day? I did some volunteering near Ground Zero to help fast track life insurance policies with my sister, whose husband (he survived) lost 295 direct report employees on 9/11. I still see the haunted look in the eyes of the families. They were zombies. Had the life sucked right out of them and barely remembered to inhale and exhale. Given my own personal experience, I am pretty impressed that AS is putting himself out there and STILL trying to bust through the red tape that he claims held him and his son back.

Did the system hold him and his son back? To the extent that he claims? I don't know and I couldn't know unless he was a personal acquaintance and I not only knew his entire story, but had been there to watch it unfold. Was he a great husband and father? I don't know. Probably not, maybe not. But I will NOT diss the man's claims without knowing a lot about the mother. I don't care if she lives in a nice house with a nice car and has a nice job working for a benevolent organization. None of that means diddly when it comes to the inside of a person's head and heart.

 

[Bluepopsicle]

Calgary reported a big snowstorm last week....

sure, World geo is taught in AU schools, but hey ho, let's look on the bright side, at least the reporter got it PARTLY right, eh? . let's not get too picky. Wanna 3rd round.?

Perhaps they should throw in some earth science studies as well in AU schools. Weather patterns east of the Rockies have nothing to do with sea ice formation in the Hudson Bay. Jus’ sayin, not trying to be ‘too picky’.

 

[JudgeJudi]

AS doesn’t know where the second gun may have come from, or if his son possibly built the gun himself.

“They’re already saying he had it,” he said. “Does that mean he built it, or did Kam have it? We don’t know.”

‘We don’t know’: Families left with questions after RCMP report on northern B.C. murders

I’d be interested in knowing the answer to that question too. BS was living with his grandmother and the house was small.



I can’t imagine him building a gun in the bedroom of his Granny’s house. Then there’s the problem of getting it in and out of the house without being seen by either his Granny or neighbours.

I believe it was KM’s gun and he was the person that should have been referred to as the person who went hunting with his father, and he had a PAL licence.

If KM wanted to build a gun without his parents' knowledge, it wouldn't have been hard as the home is set on 5 acres with lots of trees.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

And the cowboy hat is peculiar because it doesn’t nothing to alter their appearance, instead it makes them stand out.

I have a feeling that Bryer likely walked into the store, saw it and thought it was cool. I don't think it was to disguise his appearance at all.

If it happened to me, I don't even know how I would manage to put one foot in front of the other each day.

This actually makes me a little worried about AS. He is mentally ill, jobless, homeless. He lost his father and now his son. I really do hope he is getting some help because I fear once all this really hits him, which I don't believe it has, I feel like he may be suicidal.

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Were these tellers claiming these odd feelings before or after they were named as suspects? Because I'm sure the person who sold the gun to Kam feels awful, but there was no way he/she could have known what they had planned. If asked why they were buying them, Kam likely would have just said that he was going hunting.

 

[CanadianSleuther]

AS is scrambling for reporters to talk to him, running down his list and getting no replies resorting to comments on YouTube. His lawyer looked uncomfortable to be in the same room as him (link posted earlier). She will have to either streamline whatever it is she has been retained for in order to get him to keep a low profile or let him go fast. That will just add her name to the list of wrong doers. Kind of scary.

JMO.

I think she is working pro bono. There is no way Al can pay her when he can't even find a job. I think she has compassion for him as well as having some motive of her own.