Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #22

[sandbar]

But do you think the police would publicize if these guys were alive 1 km away from where the police were searching?

I really don't think the RCMP did as bad a job as you are implying that you do.

It's the nature of a police chase to not know where the subject of that chase is. And, generally speaking, the chaser finds where the chasees are, then they find them.

As far as I can tell, you laid out a possible scenario a few pages back, that had RCMP in the area. It's possible the cops were close (aka closing in) but that points to the chase being a success, rather than an embarrassment.

ETA 1 km=0.6 mi.

 

[ktm44]

It did rain a lot when they were in the woods though. Even if they didn't bring any water or means of water purification, they could have survived off rainwater and avoided getting giardia, which is apparently in the water in that area. Also, people can survive without food for at least three weeks but often much longer. They were only missing for about two weeks, and one would assume they had brought at least some food with them. Clearly they weren't attacked by any wild animals, so I guess they got lucky there. The other main hazard is hypothermia but I think the lowest temperature was within a day or two of when they got there on a night when it rained heavily (45 degrees) so if they were going to get hypothermia, they would have gotten it then. I guess whatever stuff they brought was enough to prevent that. But they definitely could have physically survived for up to two weeks...maybe not in the best shape (which would explain why they were trapped in an area you would think they could have climbed out of, if they were weak from hunger), but still.

Also the fact that they didn't travel that far enabled them to survive for longer, also. Most people lost in the wilderness are constantly moving trying to get out, and that reduces the odds of survival.

I'd like to know more about the autopsy results because I'm having trouble comprehending how two able bodied young men were trapped down by the river.

Any pictures I've seen of where they were found and aerial views of the river banks, they are many places where they trees come right down to the river. I would think they should have been able to climb back up the bank, even if they had to use trees as support as they worked their way back up. Perhaps one of them was injured (I would logically conclude Breyer) and that's what lead to that Kam shooting him or maybe Breyer just wasn't as tough as he thought and went down the bank, hoping to be located and there was a disagreement.

I would hope police went back with dogs and searched the general area because I really don't believe they camped right by the river for days, waiting for the RCMP to find them.

 

[dust bunny]

As a formerly suicidal teenager turned intermittently suicidal adult, I think a lot of it has to do with feelings of isolation and alienation as well. Studies show feelings of loneliness are increasing in our society (there are many reasons for that) and that communities aren't as cohesive as they once were. Even if people have their own small group of friends, they may feel isolated from society at large or like they don't "fit in" to the world in general. Increased internet and phone use is also associated with increased feelings of social isolation and depression.

I feel like there's a very "sink or swim" thing with school and careers too in our society. I always felt like I was two steps away from ending up homeless and being a complete failure in life, and that was while I was going to one of the top public high schools and top 15 universities in the US! I imagine it would be even more so for people who have academic difficulties and live in an area with few career prospects.

It's easy to feel like, "Nobody really cares what happens to me. They may pretend to care if I act out enough, to avoid liability if I end up killing myself, but once I start acting 'ok' again, they'll forget I existed." And if someone is, for example, openly threatening suicide and posting pictures on Instagram with a gun in their mouth and people still aren't even pretending to care....

Sorry, NJ, as now I feel I have failed you and we do not even know each other. You are very brave to speak out about your feelings as a teenager and as an adult but Bravo! you did not succumb to those self-destructive and negative impulses and now you are making valid and important contributions to this discussion. Thank you.

 

[LoisLane]

I don’t think they’re available to the public in any Canadian province. If there had been a criminal trial, evidence and supporting testimony regarding injuries incurred by the victims would be introduced by the medical examiner, assuming it wasn’t subject to a publication ban which often seems to occur. But I can’t ever recall a Medical Examiner’s final report being released regarding the deaths of suicide victims, whether or not the individuals were accused of prior criminal acts.

B.C. Coroners Service releases report on 41-year-old missing man found dead on Vancouver Island in October

“Tonya Kilmer, his wife, had been attempting to block the B.C. Coroners Service from releasing the report due to concerns about the impact upon her children and family if the details of his death were released.

However, the B.C. Coroners Service stated that after “careful consideration of the issues raised and the requirements of the legislation”, the chief coroner found that “the public interest in the disclosure outweighed the personal privacy of the deceased in this instance”. The B.C. Coroners Service also stated that the report “establishes the facts, addresses speculation, and quiets the public imagination”.”

 

[MistyWaters]

B.C. Coroners Service releases report on 41-year-old missing man found dead on Vancouver Island in October

“Tonya Kilmer, his wife, had been attempting to block the B.C. Coroners Service from releasing the report due to concerns about the impact upon her children and family if the details of his death were released.

However, the B.C. Coroners Service stated that after “careful consideration of the issues raised and the requirements of the legislation”, the chief coroner found that “the public interest in the disclosure outweighed the personal privacy of the deceased in this instance”. The B.C. Coroners Service also stated that the report “establishes the facts, addresses speculation, and quiets the public imagination”.”

In that report -
“The B.C. Coroners Service released a report on June 17, stating that Kilmer died of asphyxiation and that the death was a suicide.”

Here we already know how B&K died. The discussion, as I recall, was about possible future release of the full coroners report, which includes very detailed medical information gathered during examination of the remains, far more than just the cause and manner of death. I don’t ever recall Medical Examination’s post-mortem examination details disclosed by the media, aside from criminal trials.

The RCMP have already provided the reason why no other suspects are being sought in the murders of L&C or LD and we know B&K later took their own lives. So IMO releasing to the public the medical conditions of B&K’s dead bodies would only serve to place an unnecessary, additional burden upon their family members who are already facing a wide array of conflicting emotions such as guilt, shock, anger and grief over what has occurred.

 

[LoisLane]

In that report -
“The B.C. Coroners Service released a report on June 17, stating that Kilmer died of asphyxiation and that the death was a suicide.”

Here we already know how B&K died. The discussion, as I recall, was about possible future release of the full coroners report, which includes very detailed medical information gathered during examination of the remains, far more than just the cause and manner of death. I don’t ever recall Medical Examination’s post-mortem examination details disclosed by the media, aside from criminal trials.

The RCMP have already provided the reason why no other suspects are being sought in the murders of L&C or LD and we know B&K later took their own lives. So IMO releasing to the public the medical conditions of B&K’s dead bodies would only serve to place an unnecessary, additional burden upon their family members who are already facing a wide array of conflicting emotions such as guilt, shock, anger and grief over what has occurred.

I was replying to the last part of your original comment: “But I can’t ever recall a Medical Examiner’s final report being released regarding the deaths of suicide victims, whether or not the individuals were accused of prior criminal acts.”

I did a quick look to see if I could find a detailed report but I just see the MSM articles.

I did come across one on the BC Coroners site. Detailed report, death by suicide.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/b...ts/investigative/macisaac-harold-roderick.pdf

I think we will see a detailed or formal version of the ME’s report eventually. If the final investigation report makes the claim then it should be backed up.

I also think an inquest will be requested/granted and revealed in the near future. I think the final conference gave that away when they refer to the suspects as being cornered, surrounded, no way out. Some might question what they did to bring them out safely, which we haven’t heard of those attempts. JMO.

For anyone who wants to keep an eye out:
Coroners Service Inquests - Province of British Columbia

 

[Inkblot]

Neither appeared to be experiencing auditory or visual hallucinations, so schizoaffective disorder doesn't seem to apply. They probably had the garden variety personality and mood disorders.

JMO, it may have had a lot to do with how they were raised. Not all damaged teens are the result of parents who abused or neglected them. Sometimes they're from homes where they were allowed to do anything they wish, all the time, no boundaries. As a result, they don't learn how to regulate their behavior and emotions, plan for the future nor see themselves maturing into adulthood. They remain forever adolescent kids.

The biggest factor may have been the addiction to computer games. It stunts development of social skills, encourages living in an often violent fantasy world where you just shoot and kill people for fun or if they get in your way. Maybe the real world of working at Walmart was too bland and depressing for the guys, so they decided to play real-life computer games instead.

I don't think they thought much about the consequences until they were forced to. They kept harboring the fantasy of driving to the end of the continent, then escaping to some exotic location via the Hudson Bay. When faced with the reality of their situation and the future they faced, they chose to opt out. JMO, they really didn't think they would get caught or have to face consequences until it was too late.

ETA: The fact neither had any compassion or regret for killing their victims says the most about their flawed personalities. That they stopped seemed more for self-preservation than compassion or guilt.

Yes, thank you. I agree 100%. I just cannot have compassion for 2 teen killers. I don't understand how some members on this site actually feel empathy for them. They knew right from wrong. They chose to do what they did. Definitely a "garden variety" of personality disorders. I like that saying.

 

[NJSleuth91]

I really don't think the RCMP did as bad a job as you are implying that you do.

It's the nature of a police chase to not know where the subject of that chase is. And, generally speaking, the chaser finds where the chasees are, then they find them.

As far as I can tell, you laid out a possible scenario a few pages back, that had RCMP in the area. It's possible the cops were close (aka closing in) but that points to the chase being a success, rather than an embarrassment.

ETA 1 km=0.6 mi.

I'm not saying they did a bad job necessarily. We don't even know when Kam and Bryer died. If they died on, say, the 24th, then it makes sense that the RCMP couldn't find them for a while, because the infrared would not have found them, there wouldn't be evidence of them traveling, etc.

But what I am saying is that the RCMP might feel embarrassed and not want to publicize it if it turns out they were alive for a while and the police somehow never found them. If two dumb, naive teenagers evaded hundreds of experienced RCMP searchers with specialized equipment for over a week and stayed alive within five miles of their last known location, close to a river, within 0.6 miles of searchers and possibly even closer...it's just not good publicity for the RCMP, you know? It also might embolden other attempted fugitives. And that might explain why the RCMP won't narrow down the range of when they died even though we all know, factually, that they can determine a much closer estimate of when they died than "sometime between July 22nd and August 7th."

I also wonder if they would have been found much sooner if not for the York Landing thing. It's kind of ridiculous that anyone, let alone experienced law enforcement search teams, ever thought they could have gotten that far away without being spotted in such a short period of time. That town was not accessible by road, the only waterways had the current going the opposite direction, and pretty much they only could have gotten there on foot. I don't think even Bear Grylls could have accomplished that. IIRC the report didn't even bother to explain the York Landing thing.

I'd like to know more about the autopsy results because I'm having trouble comprehending how two able bodied young men were trapped down by the river.

Any pictures I've seen of where they were found and aerial views of the river banks, they are many places where they trees come right down to the river. I would think they should have been able to climb back up the bank, even if they had to use trees as support as they worked their way back up. Perhaps one of them was injured (I would logically conclude Breyer) and that's what lead to that Kam shooting him or maybe Breyer just wasn't as tough as he thought and went down the bank, hoping to be located and there was a disagreement.

I would hope police went back with dogs and searched the general area because I really don't believe they camped right by the river for days, waiting for the RCMP to find them.

I get the sense they didn't leave with much food. They were probably too hungry to really put in much effort to continue. But it is possible one of them could have been injured.

Also, I suspect they didn't actually plan to go back and kill more people...it would have been highly impractical to even consider that at that point. Furthermore, the most efficient way to accomplish that would have been to lure the Mounties and engage them in a shootout, which would have the benefit of being cinematic and giving them a ton of notoriety (a lot of anti-cop people out there would be into the whole shootout with the police thing).

I suspect that they were ready to kill themselves even when they filmed Video 1 and it was just posturing for the camera to try to cement some kind of "legacy" in the annals of teenaged perpetrators of mass violence.

Sorry, NJ, as now I feel I have failed you and we do not even know each other. You are very brave to speak out about your feelings as a teenager and as an adult but Bravo! you did not succumb to those self-destructive and negative impulses and now you are making valid and important contributions to this discussion. Thank you.

Well...haven't succumbed yet. But thanks anyway. And I'm happy you feel my contributions are valid and important!

 

[MistyWaters]

I was replying to the last part of your original comment: “But I can’t ever recall a Medical Examiner’s final report being released regarding the deaths of suicide victims, whether or not the individuals were accused of prior criminal acts.”

I did a quick look to see if I could find a detailed report but I just see the MSM articles.

I did come across one on the BC Coroners site. Detailed report, death by suicide.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/b...ts/investigative/macisaac-harold-roderick.pdf

I think we will see a detailed or formal version of the ME’s report eventually. If the final investigation report makes the claim then it should be backed up.

I also think an inquest will be requested/granted and revealed in the near future. I think the final conference gave that away when they refer to the suspects as being cornered, surrounded, no way out. Some might question what they did to bring them out safely, which we haven’t heard of those attempts. JMO.

For anyone who wants to keep an eye out:
Coroners Service Inquests - Province of British Columbia

Autopsy reports are not public records in Canada and if you’re able to google anything to the contrary, I’d be interested.

“Cornered and surrounded, no way out.” .......I hope I’m misunderstanding, by that are you suggesting the RCMP were responsible for the deaths of B & K because that’s not what was said at all. A question was asked during the PC about where the bodies were found and the response was the two were located between the river and the steep cliffs and were unable to climb back out. The police certainly did not force them to go there unless safely evading arrest after murdering innocent people has become a new legal right. How would an inquest determine why they were in that location when both parties are now dead?

 

[Runningforthewind]

Yes, thank you. I agree 100%. I just cannot have compassion for 2 teen killers. I don't understand how some members on this site actually feel empathy for them. They knew right from wrong. They chose to do what they did. Definitely a "garden variety" of personality disorders. I like that saying.

I feel empathy and compassion because it didn't need to be like this. Just because one feels sad about it doesn't mean they condone their actions, or feel anger for their actions or make excuse for their actions. What they did was unforgivable.

But they were young, entering adulthood with everything going for them. Kam was described as a nice guy, kind, and by many someone you can count on. Bryer came from a fractured childhood and even by some as a nice guy. What went wrong? They weren't violent, they were up until July 12th known as being good kids.

I feel sad on where went wrong. Up until September 27th I believed these two were innocent. But after knowing the facts, instead of feeling disgust, I feel sad. Youth shouldn't ever feel like they need to do this. What caused such rage in two otherwise kind teens.

 

[Runningforthewind]

hope I’m misunderstanding, by that are you suggesting the RCMP were responsible for the deaths of B & K because that’s not what was said at all.

I don't think she is implying they are at fault as much as she is saying the public will be questioning what steps they took in general.

 

[Inkblot]

I think their suicidal thoughts were driven by their experience with real BUGS. And I think they died before the heat seeking equipment was deployed. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence of particular cleverness in evading detection. I am getting annoyed about all the talk of poor boys. They were men, fully responsible for everything they did. I don’t care if they wanted more loving. If they were bigger and uglier we wouldn’t have to listen to this. Call me grouchy.

No...not grouchy at all. I agree with you. Keeping it real doesn't mean you're being grouchy. So what if others don't agree. Guess I'm a grouch too.

 

[Inkblot]

I feel empathy and compassion because it didn't need to be like this. Just because one feels sad about it doesn't mean they condone their actions, or feel anger for their actions or make excuse for their actions. What they did was unforgivable.

But they were young, entering adulthood with everything going for them. Kam was described as a nice guy, kind, and by many someone you can count on. Bryer came from a fractured childhood and even by some as a nice guy. What went wrong? They weren't violent, they were up until July 12th known as being good kids.

I feel sad on where went wrong. Up until September 27th I believed these two were innocent. But after knowing the facts, instead of feeling disgust, I feel sad. Youth shouldn't ever feel like they need to do this. What caused such rage in two otherwise kind teens.

Yeah...Ted Bundy was a "nice guy" too. Me compassion lies with the 3 murdered people and their families. I also feel empathy for the parents of the teens but zero for the killers no matter what their background or upbringing. They planned it. It wasn't a spur of the moment psychotic break.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Yeah...Ted Bundy was a "nice guy" too.

The chilling number of times Ted Bundy was reported to authorities but police did NOT act

Sounds like there was plenty of reports that weren't taken seriously.

 

[NJSleuth91]

The chilling number of times Ted Bundy was reported to authorities but police did NOT act

Sounds like there was plenty of reports that weren't taken seriously.

Plus he had a criminal record for multiple thefts by the time he was 18. It's sort of a different psychological profile than two people with zero criminal record or pattern of escalating violent behavior suddenly deciding to become brutally violent.

 

[Runningforthewind]

Plus he had a criminal record for multiple thefts by the time he was 18. It's sort of a different psychological profile than two people with zero criminal record or pattern of escalating violent behavior suddenly deciding to become brutally violent.

Exactly. While they have similarities to some other spree killing cases, they are still very different. I'm still waiting for that one person to say one or both of them were violent. I hardly count something someone said happened when Bryer was in middle school to hold much weight.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not saying they did a bad job necessarily. We don't even know when Kam and Bryer died. If they died on, say, the 24th, then it makes sense that the RCMP couldn't find them for a while, because the infrared would not have found them, there wouldn't be evidence of them traveling, etc.

But what I am saying is that the RCMP might feel embarrassed and not want to publicize it if it turns out they were alive for a while and the police somehow never found them. If two dumb, naive teenagers evaded hundreds of experienced RCMP searchers with specialized equipment for over a week and stayed alive within five miles of their last known location, close to a river, within 0.6 miles of searchers and possibly even closer...it's just not good publicity for the RCMP, you know? It also might embolden other attempted fugitives. And that might explain why the RCMP won't narrow down the range of when they died even though we all know, factually, that they can determine a much closer estimate of when they died than "sometime between July 22nd and August 7th."

I also wonder if they would have been found much sooner if not for the York Landing thing. It's kind of ridiculous that anyone, let alone experienced law enforcement search teams, ever thought they could have gotten that far away without being spotted in such a short period of time. That town was not accessible by road, the only waterways had the current going the opposite direction, and pretty much they only could have gotten there on foot. I don't think even Bear Grylls could have accomplished that. IIRC the report didn't even bother to explain the York Landing thing.

Maybe there’s a misunderstanding as to the intention originally announced by the RCMP pertaining to the content of the final police report? The purpose was address the murder of Leonard Dyck, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese, as opposed to focus on the life and death of the suspects. I think they achieved their objective and the general public is satisfied no other murder suspects are at large.


“The Manitoba Medical Examiner has completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased men located in Manitoba on August 7, 2019 were Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky. Their next of kin have been notified and they have been offered support........

Investigators are now assessing all items located in Manitoba, along with the previous findings related to the three northern BC homicide investigations, in order to gain more clarity into what happened to Leonard Dyck, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese. The assessment will review all the investigative findings to date, whether it is statements, evidentiary time lines, physical or digital evidence, and the BC RCMP have also have engaged our Behavioural Analysis Unit (BAU).

The BC RCMP commits that once we have completed that review within the next few weeks, we will be providing the families with an update with respect to the totality of the investigations and then releasing the information publicly...”

RCMP in British Columbia - Update – RCMP confirm cause of death and provide update on the Northern BC triple homicide investigations

 

[bcgirl]

Behind and catching up! Someone might've done this already and I haven't read it yet, I'm on and off the computer.

I have Photoshop and inverted the gun pic, then upped the contrast and levels. Really hard to make out. Could be Schmegelsky... does anyone see the word brothers? Just at a glance without staring too hard, I thought the etches look similar to that word but could be my eyes.

View attachment 208236

Ah, yes, I made out "brothers" as well, when it was turned right side up.

 

[ktm44]

I also wonder if they would have been found much sooner if not for the York Landing thing. It's kind of ridiculous that anyone, let alone experienced law enforcement search teams, ever thought they could have gotten that far away without being spotted in such a short period of time. That town was not accessible by road, the only waterways had the current going the opposite direction, and pretty much they only could have gotten there on foot. I don't think even Bear Grylls could have accomplished that. IIRC the report didn't even bother to explain the York Landing thing.



I get the sense they didn't leave with much food. They were probably too hungry to really put in much effort to continue. But it is possible one of them could have been injured.

Also, I suspect they didn't actually plan to go back and kill more people...it would have been highly impractical to even consider that at that point. Furthermore, the most efficient way to accomplish that would have been to lure the Mounties and engage them in a shootout, which would have the benefit of being cinematic and giving them a ton of notoriety (a lot of anti-cop people out there would be into the whole shootout with the police thing).

I suspect that they were ready to kill themselves even when they filmed Video 1 and it was just posturing for the camera to try to cement some kind of "legacy" in the annals of teenaged perpetrators of mass violence.



Well...haven't succumbed yet. But thanks anyway. And I'm happy you feel my contributions are valid and important!

I wondered if their plan to kill 100 more was less posturing and more a reference to a belief they would have a showdown with police, which might have worked but the RCMP were careful not to put themselves in that position and they hadn't shed most of their ammo.

Many reports indicate that they had some bush experience maybe their idea of camping is a weekend at a public campground with a few hundred close neighbors, steaks and bugers to grill and beer in a cooler. I grew a bit differently and the bush provides plenty of groceries. A simple snare would provide squirrel and if the weren't able to provide able to hunt/fish or forage, they were dead when the walked into the bush.

 

[NJSleuth91]

Maybe there’s a misunderstanding as to the content originally pledged by the RCMP in the final police report? The purpose was address the murder of Leonard Dyck, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese, as opposed to focus on the life and death of the suspects.

“The Manitoba Medical Examiner has completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased men located in Manitoba on August 7, 2019 were Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky. Their next of kin have been notified and they have been offered support........

Investigators are now assessing all items located in Manitoba, along with the previous findings related to the three northern BC homicide investigations, in order to gain more clarity into what happened to Leonard Dyck, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese. The assessment will review all the investigative findings to date, whether it is statements, evidentiary time lines, physical or digital evidence, and the BC RCMP have also have engaged our Behavioural Analysis Unit (BAU).

The BC RCMP commits that once we have completed that review within the next few weeks, we will be providing the families with an update with respect to the totality of the investigations and then releasing the information publicly...”

RCMP in British Columbia - Update – RCMP confirm cause of death and provide update on the Northern BC triple homicide investigations

The report gave details of the search. About 2/3rds of the timeline of the report occurred after the murders. It also gave information on the movements of the suspects after the murders. That included the contents of the videos (even details that went beyond their confessions) and details of their deaths, suicide pact, final wishes for their remains, etc. It also mentioned that unsuccessful attempts were made to find out when the videos were recorded from metadata on the camera. Clearly, the report contained more than just what was needed to prove that they committed the murders and how they did it, and did also include information on the suspects beyond that. The estimated range of death is relevant information in the context of what has already been released.