CANADA - Lucas Fowler & Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #6

[afitzy]

Canadians are probably a little taken aback with suggestions that RCMP should fly helicopters, or that RCMP did something wrong when it took them 4 hours to reach a crime scene that was 4 hours from the nearest populated area.

@otto Why be taken aback?

These were all totally logical questions that are routinely asked and usually answered in cases on WS no matter where the case happens to happen. Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories so far as I know and given the vast territory and limited ground personnel I would have thought that more active use of air options would have been seen. There were a number of assumptions made to get to the point of asking the original question and some of the thoughtful responses provided on the topic were very helpful in better understanding why air options aren't maybe widely used in Canada.

So, even knowing what I know about the population density/weather/crime stats and all the million other things that have been discussed here etc., I was surprised that each province didn't necessarily have access to such air resources for emergency use which was why I was interested in the 4 hr response time and vehicle travel to murder scene. We had someone from Australia chime in that he thought 4 hrs was a great turnaround time!

If I recall we both actively followed the recent case in Greece with the murdered scientist. Virtually all of the same questions were asked about the local policing and EU LE etc. that have been asked of the RCMP in this case. In the murdered scientist case the local Greek response in terms of providing explanations and translation was beyond anything I have ever seen in terms of being helpful and productive and there was no second guessing about where the questions were coming from IMO.

I think as @sillybilly rightly said WS is LE friendly but that doesn't mean we don't ask questions or try to understand why LE does what it does when they do it IMO. WS folks asked the RCMP related questions and we got some answers. We might agree and not agree or understand or not understand but we keep it moving. But thanks to the locals that helped us to better understand the situation!

 

[10ofRods]

My question was about the distance of 4 hours. I am unaware of anywhere in the lower 40 where a 4 hour response time is the norm.

If you were hiking in Yosemite, there could easily be a 4 hour response in some places. If you were traversing certain parts of Arizona or New Mexico, at least a 3 hour response in some places. In the middle of north Nevada, can be 3-4 hours (or longer, from personal experience).

Wilderness/largely wilderness places have slow response times. There's no cell service in California's Sierra mountains. So...that's where the slow response starts. One waits for someone to come by with a satellite phone.

If you're just talking about roadside breakdowns, see my comment about northern Nevada. And we waited in northern Arizona for almost 3 (and it was a sunny but cold weekend day...there simply were no available tow services and LE never stopped to assist).

I actually waited on the side of an LA freeway for 1.5 hours...thousands of cars whizzing by, including many, many LE vehicles. I had left my phone at home. Eventually a really nice person stopped and called AAA for me.

If I were traveling in a remote area, I would not expect rapid rescue from a roadside breakdown. Being on the side of the road elevates several risks (including crime), so I would not be happy with that. I now have a system whereby I don't forget my phone...

 

[SnooperDuper]

What country is the reporter from?

It was in the Star so Canadian.

 

[jassange]

Something about this Father does not feel right to me?? JMO

I'm pretty certain he is mentally ill.

 

[Gina20]

Calling Toronto "North" is a bit of a stretch. It's south of North Dakota or Maine.

Tropical compared to most of the country. But it's a wet cold in the winter, as we say here. Haha!

 

[puppyraiser]

hm I'm only 1-1/2 hrs away from you
I've never seen moose but I haven't traveled up north that much as an adult
like Sudbury is north to me lol

I've seen in Ontario: bear and wolf outside Collingwood (bears also spotted near London/Sarnia by others), Moose north west of Kingston and in Algonquin and apparently there was one near Sarnia (didn't see it), lots of bear scat off hwy 38 outside Kingston in a crown forest, tons of deer from Windsor to up north, wild turkeys all over the extreme south west of Ontario, bald eagles, coyotes and large paw prints believed to belong to a cougar outside London (sand trap at a golf course). A lot of the wild animals that are found in Northern Ontario are making their way south. More and more sightings are being reported. Wild boars apparently are in the area as well. People need to be aware of the dangers and what wild animals can be found in areas.

 

[scrappinkat]

I think with young men this age, in distress, that at some point one or both of them would want their mother, especially after an injury. This could be the key to bringing them out of the bush. Drop leaflets with a mother's message, go in with a recorded message and blare it in the woods? I don't know how this would work, but maybe it would have, if done sooner.

Not a critique of anyone, just a statement of how young men's minds normally work in normal situations. Which these are not. MOO. No more to say on this element.

It sounded like he was estranged from his mother. He ran away and chose to live with his grandmother two years ago. Based on the letter his mother wrote I think there’s probably good reason for his choice.

 

[KR72]

All this talk of accepting risk while travelling triggered a memory of a story that happened here in Manitoba a couple of summers ago - in the vicinity of where BS and KM were last seen.

These two (very lucky) dimwits who tried to paddle the Hayes with a fibreglass canoe made it on foot all the way from the Hayes River to Gillam, over 100 km through the dense bush and muskeg.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/german-paddlers-unprepared-hayes-canoe-trip-1.4269352

 

[missy1974]

Former SAR volunteer, there are no bills for SAR services presently, at least in BC.

Welcome to Websleuths And thanks for the info.

I know it comes up almost every time there is a major search and rescue, but I think there is concern that if people knew that they might get a huge bill, they also wouldn't call for help.

 

[gitana1]

If they truly didn't want to be identified as suspects and wanted to remain missing persons, the biggest mistake IMO was leaving the body of LD near their burned truck. If as I assume, the RV4 belongs to him, that is most likely the way they tracked that vehicle..If they had taken his body and disposed of it elsewhere, possible they would not have become the suspects. JMO

Yes. Maybe they wanted the notoriety. Or maybe they're just stupid.

 

[Gina20]

I thought thermal imaging has been used to find bodies in water. I guess that’s something else. So if they are dead in the woods, it’s unlikely they will be found soon.

Forward-looking infrared - Wikipedia

 

[copkid]

A question for Australians : when stranded with a disabled vehicle on the side of a highway 4 hours from the nearest populated area, is it common for people from New South Wales to stay where they are for 8 hours and then decide to camp out at that location?
(see: New South Wales: Belanglo)

Please remember, Lucas and Chynna were seasoned travellers, they met at a hostel in Croatia,, Chynna was a member of couchsurfers.com. One needs to understand the mentality of these two peace loving travellers before you will understand their fateful decision. Sleeping in your van on the sude of the highway is just part of the adventure.

 

[afitzy]

It’s not even published that all three died due to a firearm. The cause of death for LD has not been officially stated.

RCMP did state that Deese/Fowler were the victims of 'gun violence'. No such statement about the COD of the third victim has been made by RCMP.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

someone just posted a link where someone was billed for SAR
a couple pages back

ETA: add link

Rescued Snowboarder Gives Back

That is not government SAR. As has been explained, it is a privately owned ski hill and a privately handled incident. The company that owns the ski hill and sent the bill dropped it when the individual proposed to make a safety video.

For what SAR is and isn’t, see the links in post 1034.

 

[otto]

It was in the Star so Canadian.

Asking locals for their opinions about the suspects is little more than trying to sensationalize the information. So far, we know that Bryer may have abused ritalin, his father may be schizophrenic and his mother is not that well educated (e.g.: letter to son). None of that has any relevance to finding the suspects or solving the mystery. It is local gossip that, worst case scenario, can interfere with selecting an impartial jury.

 

[otto]

Please remember, Lucas and Chynna were seasoned travellers, they met at a hostel in Croatia,, Chynna was a member of couchsurfers.com. One needs to understand the mentality of these two peace loving travellers before you will understand their fateful decision. Sleeping in your van on the side of the highway is just part of the adventure.

When in Rome, do as the Romans. When in Canada, overnight in a campground.

 

[Gardenista]

@otto Why be taken aback?

These were all totally logical questions that are routinely asked and usually answered in cases on WS no matter where the case happens to happen. Canada has 10 provinces and 3 territories so far as I know and given the vast territory and limited ground personnel I would have thought that more active use of air options would have been seen. There were a number of assumptions made to get to the point of asking the original question and some of the thoughtful responses provided on the topic were very helpful in better understanding why air options aren't maybe widely used in Canada.

So, even knowing what I know about the population density/weather/crime stats and all the million other things that have been discussed here etc., I was surprised that each province didn't necessarily have access to such air resources for emergency use which was why I was interested in the 4 hr response time and vehicle travel to murder scene. We had someone from Australia chime in that he thought 4 hrs was a great turnaround time!

If I recall we both actively followed the recent case in Greece with the murdered scientist. Virtually all of the same questions were asked about the local policing and EU LE etc. that have been asked of the RCMP in this case. In the murdered scientist case the local Greek response in terms of providing explanations and translation was beyond anything I have ever seen in terms of being helpful and productive and there was no second guessing about where the questions were coming from IMO.

I think as @sillybilly rightly said WS is LE friendly but that doesn't mean we don't ask questions or try to understand why LE does what it does when they do it IMO. WS folks asked the RCMP related questions and we got some answers. We might agree and not agree or understand or not understand but we keep it moving. But thanks to the locals that helped us to better understand the situation!

Thanks for bringing up the murder in Greece. I was highly impressed with how open Greek LE was in providing information to the public. I'd love to see that happen in all cases.

 

[Ray_of_hope]

Forgive me if this is already posted, but this article contains the first page of some of the chapters in AS's book. No, I am not going to buy the book and I realize that it probably has not been fact checked. But he does allude to having issues in his writings. Also, he is considered a victim on this site so we must be very careful in sleuthing anyone peripheral to the suspects per TOS, unless MSM declares otherwise. I just wanted to post this as a reminder to us all and for newbies. Thanks. Father of teen Canadian murder fugitive tries to hijack media frenzy to publicize his new book | Daily Mail Online

 

[10ofRods]

Since Kam and Bryer were treated as missing persons themselves (I think) in the beginning of this story, might that not have been a factor? Could all of their victims have been trying to help them?

How did they get to be missing persons, I wonder. Their families knew they were leaving. I'm not getting that part of the story/timeline. Forgive me if I'm totally mistaken, the MSM isn't always reliable.

 

[Gina20]

I would be one of the last people around to criticize the RCMP...I have three cousins and an uncle who are Mounties, and as I said back on thread 2, I worked for years for a civilian agency that was once part of the RCMP and worked very closely with them...

BUT, we have every right to question how the investigation and the info released regarding it is being handled, especially given the possible safety concerns to the public.

The RCMP may claim to always get their man, but they have had a few very well-publicized failures: the Highway of Tears and MMIW come to mind right away. Only a couple of days ago they apologized for mishandling the Amber Tuccaro investigation.

I asked a work colleague about this on Friday...she was a former city police homicide detective. When I mentioned RCMP homicide investigations she just rolled her eyes.

I’m not saying the RCMP aren’t doing whatever they can and all respect to them for a very tough job. Remote Mounties have to be jack-of-all-trades not just policing but also addictions counselling, social work, communications, etc.

But they aren’t infallible.

Yes, and at the Amber Tuccaro forced apology, the senior officer abruptly said time's up and walked away, stunning the grieving mother.

The decision about what information should be released to the public is done by the upper echelon, not the corporal out in a car on the highway, doing the legwork.