GUILTY Canada - Marie-France Comeau, 37, & Jessica Lloyd, 27, slain, Ont, 2009 & 2010 - #6

[JayFriend]

How many times did he go to that field outside Ottawa to burn evidence, anyway?

How many times had he purged himself of his meticulous records, to start new again?

Did I miss something? Link?

 

[Wondergirl]

Did I miss something? Link?

Yes, many references to it.

Williams would place lingerie in boxes or bags when he got home. He was so obsessive in his collection of undergarments that he had to burn some of his trophies in a field to make room for more.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2010/10/18/col-williams-court-1018.html

He collected hundreds of panties and bras from his break-ins, so many that he twice took some of his “trophies” to a field in Ottawa and burned them. He kept the photographs, though, and hid them on hard drives he stored in the ceiling above the basement of his Ottawa home. He used a system of deep electronic folders to make them more difficult to find.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/877044--day-in-court-ends-with-details-of-assault?bn=1

 

[Hazel]

latte: When I said "empathy" I was talking about empathy towards the suffering of the victims, their families, friends, etc. I did NOT mean empathy towards Williams.

The Dateline show is good, but we need to keep in mind is only one/two hours long? Not enough to contain ALL the details, and I am also sure they do a lot of editing, which unfortunately sometimes changes the meaning of what the interviewee was saying.

I so wish those Fifth Estate episodes were made available to countries outside Canada, those were really well done, and together with the Dateline show will help you get a better grasp/understanding of the whole story.

His friend Jeff was not a friend he was seeing much as of lately. He is one of RW's oldest friends. They knew each other while studying in Toronto, they were in their 20s. After RW married and went to live on the east coast, then moved to Ottawa (Orleans), they must have kept in contact probably by e-mails. If you notice in the Dateline show, when he is narrating the stainless steel fridge anecdote, Jeff says something to the effect of:
"just as Residency, only worse!"
so he is comparing RW the student at the University of Toronto to the RW in 2009, big gap of time, don't you think?

I found that comment of his very telling!

ITA Wondergirl, what evidence did he burn? how many times he did that? We have been told he did that every time "he had accumulated too much"

Also, latte, there is this other collateral victim... his neighbour in Cosy Cove, Tweed. This 65 year old man, who had lived an exemplenary life, was suspected of the sexual assaults, and there were 3 items that were stolen from him: a very greasy lighter, an old work coat and something else that I can't remember at the moment. Not to mention Jessica's body was found at this neighbour's hunting camp. All points in the direction that we was most probably being framed, and RW accepted to visit the Ottawa Police Headquarters so graciously because he thought the reason he was being called was not because the LE suspected RW, but he thought LE suspected his neighbour. You can come to your own conclusions of what he was going to say about poor Mr. Jones.

As for the DP, I am all for it in cases like RW, where there is no shred of a doubt that it was him who DID IT. I read today that a convicted murderer escaped yesterday...he is on the loose as we speak...so perhaps that's a good reason to get rid of monsters like RW.

Found another link for the Dateline show (just in case someone prefers white background as opposed to black)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41665374/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Found a good link from Macleans, but I guess I closed the window accidentaly

P.S: again, apologies for my English, as you can tell it is not my first language, so if something sounds "off" or "rough" is not cause I'm impaired in any way, but is not easy to express ideas, feelings in a foreign language, so hope you understand.

 

[Francine]

Below snipped for brevity:

Regarding capital punishment. I was a hardliner for that as well but changed my mind completely when I read how many releases of innocent prisoners, many on death row have occurred since DNA. Now it's a question of money for many of them. Apparently it's expensive to request. So to me, one innnocent man killed by the state is too many.

So far as I know there is no proof that an innocent person has been put to death in the United States. In one re-opened case they even went back after the killer had met his death and with new DNA techniques were able to verify that is was indeed him who had committed the heinous murder. In most cases that I am aware of there is a preponderance of DNA evidence and other forensic evidence against the killers on death row (let alone a confession). Depraved serial killers like Williams, who are too far gone, should not wake up every morning, not having to worry about where their next meal is coming from, able to read, watch t.v., talk to visitors, etc.

I have watched interviews on t.v. of people on death row and they would much prefer to not have to worry about meeting their death with the state needle. They appeal and appeal to get their sentences commuted to life. Every day they wake up and not only have to think about the horrible crimes they committed (that is if they even have one iota of empathy in them), they also have to think about being put to death. What I have noticed is how they seem to hate that idea, yet the idea of putting some innocent person to death by their own hands came quite easily to them.

Interviews of prisoners on life sentence seem different. Most of these people are sociopaths who seem to adapt to prison life. They figure out how to get in contraband, write letters to their groupies, enjoy not having to work at a job and pay taxes, figure out ways to communicate with fellow prisoners, make as many phone calls as they can to people who feel sorry for them and who enable them, watch t.v., get three square meals a day, etc. Some have even admitted it is a relief for them to be in prison. They even commit crimes just so they can come back when they have been out on parole. Even Charles Manson admitted that he prefers prison to life on the outside. Tex Watson and others have been able to get married (a couple of times), have conjugal visits, and sire many children. His victims (e.g. Sharon Tate) never got that chance. And because he was not sentenced to death, and has parole dates, he actually thinks he deserves to get out on parole because he has supposedly reformed by conveniently finding religion while in prison. Not fair for his victims at all.

I am just not buying that a life sentence in prison is harsher than death row.

 

[Hazel]

I thought it was BRILLIANT! And not only Det. Smyth, but the whole OPP. They made sure all their "T"s were crossed and the 'i"s dotted. Kudos to them all!!!!!
RW was treated nicely, he could not even claim he was forced into a confession.

His wife hired the best lawyer money can buy, BUT not even Mr. E could do much for him. Now don't ask me why his wife got him the best lawyer, the one who specializes in the lost causes cases.... the one we know is very capable to turn things around. So why did she want RW to have the best representation?
I cannot answer that, cause I simply DO NOT KNOW, DO NOT UNDERSTAND, so it would be nice if someone can help me understand, can give their opinion as to why.
It is a real puzzler.

apologies for quoting myself, but I got sidetracked and didn't get to the point I was trying to make. There are some questions I've been pondering about for some time now:

When Det. Smyth tells RW that he could leave at any time, and the Det. also lets RW know that he can ask for a lawyer to be present, he even asks him if he has a lawyer, to which RW jokingly answers that he has 'a real-estate lawyer'
so my questions are:

-- Do you guys think that his lawyer, Mr. E., told him that he should have requested a lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that RW should have at least called his real-estate lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that if RW decided to walk out of the interrogation room or declined to submit DNA samples would that have made any difference?
Or was his fate already sealed?

What I think is: he was so sure the reason he was called that Sunday evening was not because of him, but as I said in above post, he thought he was called to answer questions regarding his neighbour Mr. Jones, so IMHO, it never crossed his mind it was him who was being suspected.

It caught him totally off guard ... like a Chess game ... he was totally outsmarted, JMHO.

 

[Francine]

latte: When I said "empathy" I was talking about empathy towards the suffering of the victims, their families, friends, etc. I did NOT mean empathy towards Williams.

The Dateline show is good, but we need to keep in mind is only one/two hours long? Not enough to contain ALL the details, and I am also sure they do a lot of editing, which unfortunately sometimes changes the meaning of what the interviewee was saying.

I so wish those Fifth Estate episodes were made available to countries outside Canada, those were really well done, and together with the Dateline show will help you get a better grasp/understanding of the whole story.

His friend Jeff was not a friend he was seeing much as of lately. He is one of RW's oldest friends. They knew each other while studying in Toronto, they were in their 20s. After RW married and went to live on the east coast, then moved to Ottawa (Orleans), they must have kept in contact probably by e-mails. If you notice in the Dateline show, when he is narrating the stainless steel fridge anecdote, Jeff says something to the effect of:
"just as Residency, only worse!"
so he is comparing RW the student at the University of Toronto to the RW in 2009, big gap of time, don't you think?

I found that comment of his very telling!

ITA Wondergirl, what evidence did he burn? how many times he did that? We have been told he did that every time "he had accumulated too much"

Also, latte, there is this other collateral victim... his neighbour in Cosy Cove, Tweed. This 65 year old man, who had lived an exemplenary life, was suspected of the sexual assaults, and there were 3 items that were stolen from him: a very greasy lighter, an old work coat and something else that I can't remember at the moment. Not to mention Jessica's body was found at this neighbour's hunting camp. All points in the direction that we was most probably being framed, and RW accepted to visit the Ottawa Police Headquarters so graciously because he thought the reason he was being called was not because the LE suspected RW, but he thought LE suspected his neighbour. You can come to your own conclusions of what he was going to say about poor Mr. Jones.

As for the DP, I am all for it in cases like RW, where there is no shred of a doubt that it was him who DID IT. I read today that a convicted murderer escaped yesterday...he is on the loose as we speak...so perhaps that's a good reason to get rid of monsters like RW.

Found another link for the Dateline show (just in case someone prefers white background as opposed to black)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41665374/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Found a good link from Macleans, but I guess I closed the window accidentaly

P.S: again, apologies for my English, as you can tell it is not my first language, so if something sounds "off" or "rough" is not cause I'm impaired in any way, but is not easy to express ideas, feelings in a foreign language, so hope you understand.

Yes, I had forgotten about him trying to set up or frame his neighbour. What a creepy coward Williams is. Apparently one of his sex assault victims told the police that the person who attacked her had a voice similar to this innocent neighbour. There is speculation that Williams deliberately disguised his voice to sound like the neighbour during the assault. I guess the supposedly excessive debilitating meds he was taking at the time did not affect his ability to plan ahead and bring down someone else for his heinous crimes all that much!

 

[JayFriend]

-- Do you guys think that his lawyer, Mr. E., told him that he should have requested a lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that RW should have at least called his real-estate lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that if RW decided to walk out of the interrogation room or declined to submit DNA samples would that have made any difference?
Or was his fate already sealed?

It seems to me that RW knew his time had come and the jig was up. Retaining a criminal lawyer at this point would only have dragged the case out for years and funnelled RW's assets into the pockets of lawyers.

It appears that, like most of these serial crimes, the perp was taking bigger and bigger chances to satisfy his perversions and the only logical conclusion would be his getting caught. One might even speculate whether the extensive documentation RW was accumulating was something he wanted to peruse in his old age or something he expected to be eventually discovered.

 

[Wondergirl]

The Dateline show has brought this case more International attention, it seems. Over 400 comments on this article.

Canadian commander by day; sexual predator, killer by night

'Dateline NBC' details the astounding double life of Air Force Col. Russell Williams

But many Americans were either ignorant of or only dimly aware of the surreal case of a double life unfolding to the north — a sordid tale in which a decorated officer’s sexual fetish spiraled into gruesome violence against unsuspecting women who caught his eye.

and more on what we had discussed here:

“Russ is still my friend,” says Jeff Farquar, one of Williams’ oldest friends. “And I hate the crimes, but I don’t hate Russ.”

But for all his digging, Morrison can’t answer what remains the central question of the case: How can a man who was by all accounts an exemplary officer unravel so completely?

Additional details emerged after his trial. The Toronto Star, citing an informed source, reported in November that Williams had been taking multiple pain medications for at least two years before his arrest. Among them was prednisone, which has been documented in some instances to produce mind-altering side-effects.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41665374/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

 

[Wondergirl]

Canadian Defence Minister, Peter McKay, spoke about Williams last week. He was the Minister shown on video with Williams, not long before his arrest. He probably knew him quite well, professionally.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay was talking about more than the trauma of wounds when he visited C-F-B Trenton, Ontario, today.

He also spoke of the case of Russell Williams before he announced five new integrated support centres for military personnel and their families, including one in Trenton.

MacKay says soldiers and aircrew at Trenton had to deal with the reality of what he says was ``a monster in their midst'' when Williams' shocking sex crimes came to light.

But he says they showed courage in dealing with what he described as ``a shocking breach of trust and an unspeakable period of violence and depravity.''

http://www.680news.com/news/nationa...five-new-support-centre-for-military-families

 

[latte]

Below snipped for brevity:



So far as I know there is no proof that an innocent person has been put to death in the United States. In one re-opened case they even went back after the killer had met his death and with new DNA techniques were able to verify that is was indeed him who had committed the heinous murder. In most cases that I am aware of there is a preponderance of DNA evidence and other forensic evidence against the killers on death row (let alone a confession). Depraved serial killers like Williams, who are too far gone, should not wake up every morning, not having to worry about where their next meal is coming from, able to read, watch t.v., talk to visitors, etc.

I have watched interviews on t.v. of people on death row and they would much prefer to not have to worry about meeting their death with the state needle. They appeal and appeal to get their sentences commuted to life. Every day they wake up and not only have to think about the horrible crimes they committed (that is if they even have one iota of empathy in them), they also have to think about being put to death. What I have noticed is how they seem to hate that idea, yet the idea of putting some innocent person to death by their own hands came quite easily to them.

Interviews of prisoners on life sentence seem different. Most of these people are sociopaths who seem to adapt to prison life. They figure out how to get in contraband, write letters to their groupies, enjoy not having to work at a job and pay taxes, figure out ways to communicate with fellow prisoners, make as many phone calls as they can to people who feel sorry for them and who enable them, watch t.v., get three square meals a day, etc. Some have even admitted it is a relief for them to be in prison. They even commit crimes just so they can come back when they have been out on parole. Even Charles Manson admitted that he prefers prison to life on the outside. Tex Watson and others have been able to get married (a couple of times), have conjugal visits, and sire many children. His victims (e.g. Sharon Tate) never got that chance. And because he was not sentenced to death, and has parole dates, he actually thinks he deserves to get out on parole because he has supposedly reformed by conveniently finding religion while in prison. Not fair for his victims at all.

I am just not buying that a life sentence in prison is harsher than death row.

I never said that an innocent person had been put to death. Below, a link etc - googling will give you info. But if, after reading too many instances of innocent people freed, somebody still assumes no innocent people have been executed then I'd like to know the land they're living in.

And besides DNA I haven't even mentioned what an the law is. That's after you stumble over police making stupid mistakes and of course human error. Then the common saying amongst legal eagles - "Who'd want a jury made up of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty". If an innocent man is poor then he is completely in the hands of whatever defence the state gives him. If he is wealthy, money won't buy him automatic freedom certainly but it will buy him a damn good criminal lawyer. Lawyers are in practice, I'd like one who isn't practicing with me thanks. And so, of course - innocent people have gone down too many times. In prison they have a chance, once dead they don't.

Yes on death row they do appeal & appeal - but my view is that once they're dead they have nothing to worry about anymore. Not a thing. Not a meal, not an appeal, not if they'll have TV. They're free on earth as we know it.

And yes, no denying prisoners adapt to prison life. Amazing what people do when they have no choice. Some prisons aren't half bad either, when compared to how many live on the outside. However, men are still trying to escape - all the time. Amazing that.


http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row - you need to go down the list on the left under DNA

A book - Bloodsworth: The True Story of the First Death Row Inmate Exonerated by DNA

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

 

[latte]

apologies for quoting myself, but I got sidetracked and didn't get to the point I was trying to make. There are some questions I've been pondering about for some time now:

When Det. Smyth tells RW that he could leave at any time, and the Det. also lets RW know that he can ask for a lawyer to be present, he even asks him if he has a lawyer, to which RW jokingly answers that he has 'a real-estate lawyer'
so my questions are:

-- Do you guys think that his lawyer, Mr. E., told him that he should have requested a lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that RW should have at least called his real-estate lawyer?
-- Do you guys think that if RW decided to walk out of the interrogation room or declined to submit DNA samples would that have made any difference?
Or was his fate already sealed?

What I think is: he was so sure the reason he was called that Sunday evening was not because of him, but as I said in above post, he thought he was called to answer questions regarding his neighbour Mr. Jones, so IMHO, it never crossed his mind it was him who was being suspected.

It caught him totally off guard ... like a Chess game ... he was totally outsmarted, JMHO.

Yes I do think Mr E would have told Williams that he should have requested a lawyer.

No, though it would have been a quick link for him, I don't think he should have called his real estate lawyer. There would or should have been quick criminal defence numbers available to him on request (even on a Sunday) for him to attain a lawyer's phone advice and from there have a legal representative with him very quickly. He would almost without doubt be given immediate standard advice, even on the phone, to say no more, and later have the option of keeping that lawyer or legal representative for the duration or to choose and retain another (which is probably more likely). Even when a person is going to admit guilt and knows they committed the crime, they have the right to legal advice because as laymen they are not aware of how the law can be 'worked' in or against their favour even for years to come, and some think they are guilty when actually of course there are degrees of guilt. That legal right to advice and any represention is essential.

No I don't think him walking out or declining to submit DNA samples would have made any difference. On what I know, they were quickly gathering evidence in any case, and were already searching his residences. Even if they weren't searching, the prints probably would have been enough to detain him until the DNA which was on it's way. Williams knew that. He also knew that even if he did get to his car and drive, he would be followed and brought back very quickly.

Even if Williams would not have agreed to DNA etc, those tyre & footprints would have been enough to legally attain them.

So in essence, yes his fate was sealed.

Whether or not he thought he was being called in that day to answer questions re his neighbour, I wouldn't like to guess. I'm not sure at what stage his neighbour's questioning with the police was at that stage. I understood his neighbour was in the clear by then - but again, I'm not sure.

Certainly it never crossed William's mind he was a suspect. I agree, it caught him totally off guard. Yes like a chess game - check mate!

 

[JayFriend]

Yes I do think Mr E would have told Williams that he should have requested a lawyer.

No, though it would have been a quick link for him, I don't think he should have called his real estate lawyer. There would or should have been quick criminal defence numbers available to him on request (even on a Sunday) for him to attain a lawyer's phone advice and from there have a legal representative with him very quickly.

The thing is that rightly or wrongly, except in the case of attempted malicious prosecution or police incompetence, requesting a lawyer is perceived as an admission of guilt. In the best of all possible worlds, an innocent person should never need a lawyer. I'm thinking that RW was so confident of himself he thought he could bluff himself through anything that was thrown at him. (Or go down in flames, which he did.)

 

[latte]

The thing is that rightly or wrongly, except in the case of attempted malicious prosecution or police incompetence, requesting a lawyer is perceived as an admission of guilt. In the best of all possible worlds, an innocent person should never need a lawyer. I'm thinking that RW was so confident of himself he thought he could bluff himself through anything that was thrown at him. (Or go down in flames, which he did.)

Requesting a lawer is never perceived as an admission of guilt. It's broadly seen that way by people - but it is not correct. Many don't ask for a lawyer for just that reason though. And that guilt would certainly not be alleviated by the police interrogators or 'questioners', it's in their interests to keep that doubt and nervousness present.

Oh yes, in the best possible worlds an innocent person would not even get to court. But innocent people find themselves in court of course and innocent people find themselves in prison.

Most would agree Williams was very confident, he didn't have a clue. In the first stages of course he didn't think he'd even need to bluff anything. As the 'interview' progressed and he was falling deeper & deeper, I'm sure he wanted to have legal help but at each point it was getting more and more 'difficult' or 'awkward' for him, he was holding 'that' pride. Until he'd actually fallen into the hole.

 

[flipflop]

Convicted killers etc should never be given a day pass from jail. Does anyone know the criteria on who would ever get one???? Here is a link of an inmate who was out on a 3 day pass who escaped...he is serving a life sentence. This is a scary thought of inmates who should be locked up for life out roaming our streets...I hope RW never gets one!!!!

http://news.sympatico.ca/oped/coffe...enable_convicted_criminals_to_escape/44914c19

 

[dotr]

Paul Morse 1 hour 11 minutes ago Military probes accused doctor
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/491111--military-probes-accused-doctor
ACCUSED Ancaster doctor Amitabh Chauhan, who once trained to be a military pilot and is now part of the naval reserve in Hamilton, is being investigated by Toronto police for gang sexual assault.
Related Stories Second sex assault claim against Ancaster doc
Toronto police say a second alleged victim has come forward in a sexual assault case involving two Ontario...
.A gang rape investigation involving Hamilton physician and naval reserve officer Dr. Amitabh (Amit) Chauhan of Ancaster has expanded to the Canadian military.

“We are in the midst of contact with (the Canadian Forces National Investigative Service),” said Toronto police spokesperson Constable Tony Vella on Tuesday.

“I can confirm that we know that he was taking flying courses in the military, and we are investigating all tips,” Vella said.

 

[dotr]

Go figure...
Tracy Lamourie and Dave Parkinson, the Toronto-based co-founders of the Canadian Coalition Against the Death Penalty, started such a site more than a decade ago. Today, the site features web pages for hundreds of deathrow inmates.

"As a result of our website ... prisoners on death row throughout the States have found contacts, legal help, friendships and even the odd marriage or two," Lamourie said.

One death-row prisoner who signed up for the free service is serial killer Charles Ng, who was convicted in the late 1990s of the sex-torture killings of 11 people in California.

On his web page, Ng refers to his conviction as a "miscarriage of justice."

"Because of these and other reasons, I constantly feel misplaced, sad and lonely -like a dolphin caught inside a tuna net."

He lists among his interests: origami, spirituality, self-study, writing, reading and drawing. He says he is seeking sincere, meaningful friendships "from this dark hole of humanity."

Such postings have drawn outrage from victims' families, who don't believe these inmates deserve to have such a forum.



Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Prison+pals+Love+controversy/4319521/story.html#ixzz1En9DsEOr

What's not to love about this Prince Charming?
http://crime.about.com/od/murder/p/charlesng.htm

 

[mister happy]

I read about Ng some years ago. It's said that he's an absolute monster, and a charming one at that.

 

[maxfactor]

Paul Morse 1 hour 11 minutes ago Military probes accused doctor
http://www.thespec.com/news/crime/article/491111--military-probes-accused-doctor
ACCUSED Ancaster doctor Amitabh Chauhan, who once trained to be a military pilot and is now part of the naval reserve in Hamilton, is being investigated by Toronto police for gang sexual assault.
Related Stories Second sex assault claim against Ancaster doc
Toronto police say a second alleged victim has come forward in a sexual assault case involving two Ontario...
.A gang rape investigation involving Hamilton physician and naval reserve officer Dr. Amitabh (Amit) Chauhan of Ancaster has expanded to the Canadian military.

“We are in the midst of contact with (the Canadian Forces National Investigative Service),” said Toronto police spokesperson Constable Tony Vella on Tuesday.

“I can confirm that we know that he was taking flying courses in the military, and we are investigating all tips,” Vella said.

Canadian Forces, McMaster,Saskatchewan hmmmm

 

[Pink Panther]

I've been away from this forum for a while and came back to see if MEH filed for divorce...Do we know? Has there been any news about this?

 

[Hazel]

I've been away from this forum for a while and came back to see if MEH filed for divorce...Do we know? Has there been any news about this?

Welcome back PP
In answer to your question, I truly don't know, and there is a note from Salem I believe in previous page, so we haven't been able to discuss anything - but I do remember this from a Dec. 2010 article:

Binks said Harriman wouldn't formally file for divorce until after she knows the outcome of her motion seeking the sealing order.

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Killer+wife+wants+divorce/4011233/story.html#ixzz1G1vhHlAt

I don't know, but IMO that sounds kinda 'conditional' ... makes me think that if the outcome is not what she expects, then no divorce? :dunno: