Case Review #1: Thread #3: LE Press Conferences & Release: June 7 2010

[BeanE]

Actually, Terri's mom, CM, had this to say about Kyron:

"He's not real adventurous," she said. "He's a little timid. But if a friend wanted to go outside and look at something, he would follow the friend. He has a friend who he regularly gets in trouble with in the classroom because he talks too much."

Moulton said Kyron will not even venture far from his home in a wooded area.

"He won't get out of sight of the house," she said. "He's pretty insecure about that. So I can't see him wandering off."

Yep. Just a little timid. But he'd go off with a friend. And has a friend he regularly gets in trouble with in school because he talks too much.

But I thought we weren't supposed to believe what Terri's mother says. I can never keep track of who we're supposed to believe when and about what. Way too complex for me.

Zimmerman the PTA lady also said Kyron is "timid and sweet". But that was after spending time at the Horman's, so I'm kind of wondering if she didn't get that from Desiree.

It's Desiree who has emphasized a characterization of Kyron as so painfully shy and timid he won't even leave his front yard. Of course, she hedges on that then and says it's actually because of his vision, that he's afraid he won't be able to find her house.

Who knows?

My perception right now is that Kyron is painfully timid and shy around Desiree, or at her house, and kind of non-adventuresome or non-independent (is that a word?) in the mornings when he wakes up at Kaine's house, but when he's elsewhere, such as at school, he's outgoing and energetic and fun-loving. And this is something I want to note, and want to explore, and would like to hear the perceptions of others on.

Gina Zimmerman and Carol Moulton also said that Kyron was a timid boy so IMO it's not quite fair to say he was timid with Desiree and social and outgoing with everybody else.

I'm in the process of trying to figure out what happened to this little boy. I'm looking objectively at data, information that's available, and as I go through it, I'm expressing my thoughts about the information. I haven't reached any conclusions.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't see the problem. If both Carol Moulton and Desiree have said that he won't venture far from his house because he can't see well why wouldn't we just accept it as a fact? IIRC Kaine told his not venturing out of bed story in response to some such question and the intention was to say that Kyron wasn't adventurous. IMO it's not in conflict with the information that he talks too much at school or is a little bit more adventurous if he's with a daring friend. Just kids being kids, IMO.

IMO the question of Kyron venturing far on his own is relevant to the theory that he wandered off on his own but I think it has been dismissed anyway since this is a criminal investigation.

 

[BeanE]

I don't see the problem. If both Carol Moulton and Desiree have said that he won't venture far from his house because he can't see well why wouldn't we just accept it as a fact? IIRC Kaine told his not venturing out of bed story in response to some such question and the intention was to say that Kyron wasn't adventurous. IMO it's not in conflict with the information that he talks too much at school or is a little bit more adventurous if he's with a daring friend. Just kids being kids, IMO.

IMO the question of Kyron venturing far on his own is relevant to the theory that he wandered off on his own but I think it has been dismissed anyway since this is a criminal investigation.

I'm slow. And I'm reviewing. Give me a bit and I'll catch up.

 

[BeanE]

Major, major, *MAJOR* slip of the tongue. I never noticed this before. This is incredible. lol.

Keep in mind that on this day, LE was still interviewing Kaine "heavily", and Terri was having her first polygraph.

-3:45 in the video

Reporter: So it sounds like you haven't, you haven't interviewed all EMPLOYEES OF THE SCHOOL, but have you gone ahead and done, made sure, that none of them have a criminal background that would be a red flag.

Gates: Yeah. That's just not an area of the investigation I want to comment on.

That is, you know, in checking criminal backgrounds certainly is a very valuable tool in our investigative process.

Um... you know... and that is... and... without...

I'd like to leave that general. That is something we're doing.

But I don't want it... you... em... I'm not... We're not foc... I don't want to make it feel...

I don't want these PARENTS to feel we're focusing on, on them. You know, they've been nothing but cooperative with us. That's not the case.

We do criminal background checks where it's appropriate to the investigation... for sure.

 

[Donjeta]

Supposing he really had miniseizures, it might be another explanation why he was afraid of going too far from home alone. He might not have understood what was wrong but it could be a frightening experience to "come back" and not know what happened.

 

[STEADFAST]

Yep. Just a little timid. But he'd go off with a friend. And has a friend he regularly gets in trouble with in school because he talks too much.

But I thought we weren't supposed to believe what Terri's mother says. I can never keep track of who we're supposed to believe when and about what. Way too complex for me.

Zimmerman the PTA lady also said Kyron is "timid and sweet". But that was after spending time at the Horman's, so I'm kind of wondering if she didn't get that from Desiree.

It's Desiree who has emphasized a characterization of Kyron as so painfully shy and timid he won't even leave his front yard. Of course, she hedges on that then and says it's actually because of his vision, that he's afraid he won't be able to find her house.

Who knows?

My perception right now is that Kyron is painfully timid and shy around Desiree, or at her house, and kind of non-adventuresome or non-independent (is that a word?) in the mornings when he wakes up at Kaine's house, but when he's elsewhere, such as at school, he's outgoing and energetic and fun-loving. And this is something I want to note, and want to explore, and would like to hear the perceptions of others on.

Well, first of all, she said he'd follow a friend, and second of all, talking to a friend a lot does not mean one is not timid and shy. Maybe he talked to his friend so much because he was too shy to talk to others.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Do you think it is just a coincidence that Desiree, Terri's mother and Zimmerman all describe Kyron as timid? That Terri's mom also says he's a child who doesn't even like to venture out of his own yard?
Plus your post said ONLY Desiree describes Kyron as timid and your hypothesis is that he is only timid around Desiree. But two people who are not around him when he's with Desiree, his step-grandmother and a self-described friend of Terri also choose to use "timid" to describe him.
In fact, is there any other quotation except the one in this press conference describing Kyron as adventurous and outgoing?

 

[BeanE]

That's always been my impression of the day. The parents were welcome to come from 8:00 to 8:45. We have to remember that not every child would have a parent available to come and would have to ride the bus. And the need for chaperons. So, assemble in class at 8:45. Tour for the chaperons, staff, and children was from 9:00 to 10:00.

Yeah, but didn't the sign outside say 8 to 10?

 

[Donjeta]

Major, major, *MAJOR* slip of the tongue. I never noticed this before. This is incredible. lol.

Keep in mind that on this day, LE was still interviewing Kaine "heavily", and Terri was having her first polygraph.

-3:45 in the video

Reporter: So it sounds like you haven't, you haven't interviewed all EMPLOYEES OF THE SCHOOL, but have you gone ahead and done, made sure, that none of them have a criminal background that would be a red flag.

Gates: Yeah. That's just not an area of the investigation I want to comment on.

That is, you know, in checking criminal backgrounds certainly is a very valuable tool in our investigative process.

Um... you know... and that is... and... without...

I'd like to leave that general. That is something we're doing.

But I don't want it... you... em... I'm not... We're not foc... I don't want to make it feel...

I don't want these PARENTS to feel we're focusing on, on them. You know, they've been nothing but cooperative with us. That's not the case.

We do criminal background checks where it's appropriate to the investigation... for sure.

Even if they were focusing on the parents and obviously they were, why wouldn't they interview all the employees at the school ASAP?

He's seriously tongue twisted there in the middle.

 

[BeanE]

Well, first of all, she said he'd follow a friend, and second of all, talking to a friend a lot does not mean one is not timid and shy. Maybe he talked to his friend so much because he was too shy to talk to others.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Do you think it is just a coincidence that Desiree, Terri's mother and Zimmerman all describe Kyron as timid? That Terri's mom also says he's a child who doesn't even like to venture out of his own yard?
Plus your post said ONLY Desiree describes Kyron as timid and your hypothesis is that he is only timid around Desiree. But two people who are not around him when he's with Desiree, his step-grandmother and a self-described friend of Terri also choose to use "timid" to describe him.
In fact, is there any other quotation except the one in this press conference describing Kyron as adventurous and outgoing?

BBM. Point that out to me please. I can't find it.

 

[BeanE]

More notes from the second presser video.

In the beginning, Gates says there are still some staff and parents that haven't come in. Gates says LE will contact them if they don't come in.

Then later in the Q&A:

- reporter asks about not having had more of the parents and staff come forward than the 60%. Gates starts explaining, being kind and understanding, but what's funny is that he says they're a tight-knit community, tight-knit school, and this is the first time they've had to do something like this.
But the thing is, tight-knit, you would think they'd have been more eager to come forward and help one of their own, a family in that community and school.

I'd always taken it as this community doesn't want anybody outside the community to know their business so to speak. It never occurred to me until now that they didn't want LE to know their business either.

Gates stresses over and over how cooperative the family is. I'm going to have to listen closer for if he says anything more like this that indicates the community and school was not entirely cooperative.

That reminds me in turn of the reports that people in the community weren't allowing LE to search their properties.

When I see indications like Gates is saying that there's a lack of cooperation, then I start to wonder if there's something more, bigger, that people don't want anybody to find out.

 

[STEADFAST]

BBM. Point that out to me please. I can't find it.

Oops, sorry. Your post didn't say only Desiree described Kyron as timid, it went further and said:
"Why is he so timid and shy with Desiree, and so energetic and social and fun-loving with everyone else?" BBM

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree on this one, BeanE, my friend.:beagle-flip:

 

[STEADFAST]

More notes from the second presser video.

In the beginning, Gates says there are still some staff and parents that haven't come in. Gates says LE will contact them if they don't come in.

Then later in the Q&A:

- reporter asks about not having had more of the parents and staff come forward than the 60%. Gates starts explaining, being kind and understanding, but what's funny is that he says they're a tight-knit community, tight-knit school, and this is the first time they've had to do something like this.
But the thing is, tight-knit, you would think they'd have been more eager to come forward and help one of their own, a family in that community and school.

I'd always taken it as this community doesn't want anybody outside the community to know their business so to speak. It never occurred to me until now that they didn't want LE to know their business either.

Gates stresses over and over how cooperative the family is. I'm going to have to listen closer for if he says anything more like this that indicates the community and school was not entirely cooperative.

That reminds me in turn of the reports that people in the community weren't allowing LE to search their properties.

When I see indications like Gates is saying that there's a lack of cooperation, then I start to wonder if there's something more, bigger, that people don't want anybody to find out.

That was exactly the impression I got, too, when this presser was held. It's very odd to me that people wouldn't be flocking to tell all they know and help.
A few things, though. It's possible that Terri's circle of friends were afraid of the witch hunt possibility and didn't want to say anything that they thought might be construed to be against her.
However, Terri couldn't have been friends with 40% of people at the school, so what were the other holding back for? 40% of the parents at the school couldn't have been involved in Kyron's disappearance, so what in the world was keeping them from trying to help as much as possible!!??

 

[eyes4crime]

I don't see the problem. If both Carol Moulton and Desiree have said that he won't venture far from his house because he can't see well why wouldn't we just accept it as a fact? IIRC Kaine told his not venturing out of bed story in response to some such question and the intention was to say that Kyron wasn't adventurous. IMO it's not in conflict with the information that he talks too much at school or is a little bit more adventurous if he's with a daring friend. Just kids being kids, IMO.

IMO the question of Kyron venturing far on his own is relevant to the theory that he wandered off on his own but I think it has been dismissed anyway since this is a criminal investigation.

The FBI profiler brought in from Quantico (part of the CARD Team) profiled Kyron as a 'wanderer'. Where did the profiler get his/her information to make that characterization? Sounds like mom and dad gave opposite information. IMO profiling Kyron as a wanderer changed the investigation dramatically. moo

ETA: http://www.katu.com/news/local/95725809.html (oops wrong link)

ETA: This link refers to the profiler making a profile of Kyron...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/day_three_search_continues_hun.html

 

[SurfieTX]

Yeah, but didn't the sign outside say 8 to 10?

It did, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that an itinerary of some sort was sent home with the kids explaining the procedures for the day.

The reason I asked about whether it was the first time Skyline participated in the programme was because I'd bet (again) that the faculty was pretty proud, as were the parents and students. I'm sure the atmosphere in the morning was one of pride and glee. And for the parents who could not attend, I'm sure seeing the marquis stating that all of that hard work that the students put into their projects was being recognized for two hours was satisfying.

It is important to me to take everything within context - understand the community socially. (Heh, my degree is in sociology and my minor in CJ, so there's that).

As an aside, I noticed that Kyrons project info. squares were laminated.

 

[Donjeta]

I keep personalizing things thinking about one of my children because a lot of things about Kyron remind me of him, and thinking about him, it seems to me that it's actually not always mutually exclusive to be both shy and timid and energetic and outgoing. Because that's exactly what this child of mine is like. He's noisy and energetic, sometimes thoughtless, gets himself noticed in social situations. But he also feels awkward and shy and fearful, reserved in certain situations and tends to draw away from them, at least mentally if not physically. I could easily see both descriptions of him, timid and outgoing, because they're both true to some extent, just not the whole story.

 

[Donjeta]

The FBI profiler brought in from Quantico profiled Kyron as a 'wanderer'. Where did the profiler get his/her information to make that characterization? Sounds like mom and dad gave opposite information. IMO profiling Kyron as a wanderer changed the investigation dramatically. moo

A profiler said that?

But IMO both Desiree and Kaine gave the impression of thinking Kyron wasn't the wandering type.

He was also described as easily distracted by Carol Moulton and I think this information by Terri might possibly have given reason to think he could wander off in a confused state:

“The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out."

 

[BeanE]

Oops, sorry. Your post didn't say only Desiree described Kyron as timid, it went further and said:
"Why is he so timid and shy with Desiree, and so energetic and social and fun-loving with everyone else?" BBM

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree on this one, BeanE, my friend.:beagle-flip:

I may well be barking up the wrong tree. But that's what we do here. Bark until until we see if we're under the right tree or not.

 

[STEADFAST]

I keep personalizing things thinking about one of my children because a lot of things about Kyron remind me of him, and thinking about him, it seems to me that it's actually not always mutually exclusive to be both shy and timid and energetic and outgoing. Because that's exactly what this child of mine is like. He's noisy and energetic, sometimes thoughtless, gets himself noticed in social situations. But he also feels awkward and shy and fearful, reserved in certain situations and tends to draw away from them, at least mentally if not physically. I could easily see both descriptions of him, timid and outgoing, because they're both true to some extent, just not the whole story.

I have a grandson that is that way, too. Very happy, talky,full of energy in a familiar situation among familiar people, but not too big on making NEW friends or venturing new situations.

 

[STEADFAST]

I may well be barking up the wrong tree. But that's what we do here. Bark until until we see if we're under the right tree or not.

Hey, I'm just helping you out. Just like you help me out when I'm getting hoarse from barking up the wrong tree!

 

[Jo in Calif]

A profiler said that?

But IMO both Desiree and Kaine gave the impression of thinking Kyron wasn't the wandering type.

He was also described as easily distracted by Carol Moulton and I think this information by Terri might possibly have given reason to think he could wander off in a confused state:

“The past 2 weeks he's been acting really weird. Staring off into space. Can't remember anything. Walks into the room and then back out, stopping to stare and then move on. The doc thinks that he is having mini seizures and I made an appt on Thursday for next Friday to have him checked out."

If in fact she did make The Dr. appt on Thurs. because of something that had been happening for the past 2 weeks, I truly hope that was something that she shared with both his parents, even before she made the appt.