Clarification of Expert Witnesses WARNING!! snippy

[cyberborg]

I agree that the JB's tone is unprofessional. I guess I am almost immune to it. Sadly, I just expect it now.

That said, while researching Dr. Fairgrieve, reviewing comments JB has made in other hearings and now, this - it is abundantly clear that JB is gonna do everything he can to exclude the cadaver dog alerts. He is really fighting this one. He does not want jurors to hear about the K-9 alerts on the Pontiac.

This one is going to be interesting to watch. I've been researching it a bit and was surprised to learn how often cadaver dog alerts are excluded. That in no way means these will be...that is yet to be determined. There are several good links posted throughout the thread on Scott Fairgrieve thread linked here.

Yes ... this is the point. It might be seen as desperation but JB has no other option than to exclude/distance ICA from any decomp in the trunk and the fact there there was ever 'a dead body in the d@mn car'.

JB needs to eliminate the cadaver dog hits, coffin flies, etc for ICA to have any chance at all. There is simply too much evidence/forensics tying to the A house and ICA's car that fits into a solid timeline that ICA killed Caylee, moved her remains about and then dumped her around the corner.

Good luck with that!

 

[tsitra01]

How arrogant can he get. If the states experts give false testimony then his experts
Will step in to dispute that testimony and CORRECT that evidence? Nothing specific,
How does that adhere to Judge Perry,s orders? I sooo want to hear what the Judge
Thinks. Sounds like JB was quite miffed that he had to do this. His way of getting
Back at JA?

 

[beach]

The cadaver dogs are but one "indicator" that something was very wrong.

Considered alone, they certainly can NOT prove a "dead body". Anyone can argue that they may not be relied on as "proof" of death.

BUT...

when the canine alerts are combined with 31 days, gas chromotography, zero cooperation from family, duct tape, and other pieces of "circumstantial" evidence, they support a theory.

Short of video, a case like this is as strong as the sum of its parts. IMO, the sum has not been tallied yet. But it's looking pretty high.

JB wants to get as much thrown out as possible in order to reduce the "sum".

JMO

You are spot on, SotS! From the little bit of legal research I have done on it, the key to getting it admitted is most often corroboration. The dog alerts alone are not enough. There must be some other corroborating evidence. I linked a site referencing this in more detail in the Fairgrieve thread a couple of days ago. Very informative to me. I didn't realize that they are excluded as often as they are.

 

[Soju]

Exactly, Beach. There IS corroborating evidence of a body in the trunk. Not to mention cindy's 911 call, Yuri Melich's testimony, GA's interview, the air samples, coffin flies in trunk garbage, adipocere, etc. Now tie that up in a nice pretty bow with casey's text messages making excuses for the smell before caylee was reported missing, the fact that she ditched the car, and bob's your uncle.

 

[sumbunny]

And we can't forget the tow yard man who said there was a car that smelled similar ..when a man had commited suicide in it.

I also believe mythbusters did a show on how difficult it is to get the decomposition smell out of a car. (almost impossible)

 

[Soju]

Just wondering what others think about Huntington's part of JB's "filing". JB is saying that Huntington agrees with Haskill that Caylee decomposed at some place OTHER than the recovery site. Um, no way Jose. As far as I recall, Haskill only said that caylee STARTED decomposing somewhere other than the remains site. (her mother's trunk). Nice, try, though. Good grief.

 

[USARDOG]

Totally unprofessional and completely disgusting. A new low for JB.

 

[watergirl]

your honor, this is legally insufficient for the court to even entertain, wrong on the facts and wrong on the law, the motion itself is internally inconsistent. Indeed the entire motion is replete with errors from top to bottom. We ask that the court strike it. If the defense wants to go back and prepare a proper motion by the legal requirements, they are free to do so at a later date. Right now, it doesn't even come close....it is.....a farce! -LKB

<credit to TWA for this quote>

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5888395&postcount=93"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Defense Taphonomy Expert[/ame]

 

[Soju]

how much do you guys wanna bet that JB et al are cruising the "blogs" tonight to see how their experts' theories are going over?

 

[LancelotLink]

This twaddle proves he is not as incompetent as he is sleazy. Although at times they seem neck and neck...

 

[LancelotLink]

I get a blank page when I try to open. Can you give us an idea of what he said?

That's the Baez Blogger version.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

how much do you guys wanna bet that JB et al are cruising the "blogs" tonight to see how their experts' theories are going over?

Personally I am banking on it.....Hi Jose :wave: and just in case you are having trouble understanding the overall response to your theories and filings here is a hint:loser:... it's not good.

 

[LancelotLink]

Personally I am banking on it.....Hi Jose :wave: and just in case you are having trouble understanding the overall response to your theories and filings here is a hint:loser:... it's not good.

But, oh! so expected.

 

[LancelotLink]

I hope he doesn't think submitting something so juvenile and petty will earn him any respect from other lawyers. One of the first hearings, I watched him fuddle his way through and saw Jeff Ashton shaking his head, laughing. I join him.

 

[sleutherontheside]

You are spot on, SotS! From the little bit of legal research I have done on it, the key to getting it admitted is most often corroboration. The dog alerts alone are not enough. There must be some other corroborating evidence. I linked a site referencing this in more detail in the Fairgrieve thread a couple of days ago. Very informative to me. I didn't realize that they are excluded as often as they are.

http://www.k9fleck.org/sar/cadaver_dog.html


The Federal and State case law states that when one of these types of dogs alerts to or locates human odor, that alert is only one reasonable suspicion indicator.

Reasonable suspicion is defined as a "particularized and objective basis for suspected legal wrongdoing". In this case, the wrongdoing may be a suspect, a track or trail of a suspect or scent line up.

The dog alert is simply one indicator of wrongdoing. Now, the peace officer in charge of the case must develop other reasonable suspicion indicators to develop probable cause. "Probable cause exists when under the totality of circumstances known to the arresting officer; a prudent person would have concluded that there was a fair probability that the defendant had committed a crime."
These other reasonable suspicion indicators may be direct or circumstantial evidence.

The bottom line to a human scent K-9 handler is this; the dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence.



Kerr v Lyford (171 F.3d 330 U.S. Court of Appeals Fifth Circuit, 1999)

The court found probable cause in this case, based upon these reasonable suspicion elements:

Statements of the child witnesses implicating the Kerrs in their own sexual abuse and in Wilson's abduction, rape and murder;
Medical examinations of the children that revealed scarring consistent with their tales of sexual molestation;
Confessions and statements supplied by adult witnesses Geer, Martin, and Wanda Kerr, verified by polygraph, consistent with those of the children in implicating the Kerrs in the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Wilson;
Corroborative physical evidence such as masks, knives, and other instrumentalities of restraint and torture that were referred to by the children;
An infrared scanning device and a cadaver-sensing dog suggested the presence of human remains on the Kerr's property, and bones (albeit not conclusively human) were unearthed;
The shed in the Kerrs' backyard--which had been identified by some of the children and the adults as the place where Wilson's body had been kept--was also alerted to by the dog and, suspiciously, showed signs of recent washing and repainting.


IMO....the disturbed soil in the Anthony's back yard, and cleaning of the car creates probable cause. Now, wait for the defense to attempt to get the car thrown out entirely.

 

[JSR]

BBM

Sure you can. :angel:

You are a brilliant paralegal and you have read enough of the crud he has previously filed. I know you can believe it. haha!

Thanks Beach. I'm just used to working with an entirely different class of the legal profession. Never in all my years have I seen such work product garbage. But again I only work in Federal Courts so you tend to see a different level of professionalism. But his level of disrespect for the Court is astounding. Truly. I've never seen anything like it before.

I bet JA laughed his off when he got this in his hands. I know I would.

 

[Numbers]

This twaddle proves he is not as incompetent as he is sleazy. Although at times they seem neck and neck...

Baez has a neck???

Who knew?

 

[JSR]

http://www.k9fleck.org/sar/cadaver_dog.html


The Federal and State case law states that when one of these types of dogs alerts to or locates human odor, that alert is only one reasonable suspicion indicator.

Reasonable suspicion is defined as a "particularized and objective basis for suspected legal wrongdoing". In this case, the wrongdoing may be a suspect, a track or trail of a suspect or scent line up.

The dog alert is simply one indicator of wrongdoing. Now, the peace officer in charge of the case must develop other reasonable suspicion indicators to develop probable cause. "Probable cause exists when under the totality of circumstances known to the arresting officer; a prudent person would have concluded that there was a fair probability that the defendant had committed a crime."
These other reasonable suspicion indicators may be direct or circumstantial evidence.

The bottom line to a human scent K-9 handler is this; the dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence.



Kerr v Lyford (171 F.3d 330 U.S. Court of Appeals Fifth Circuit, 1999)

The court found probable cause in this case, based upon these reasonable suspicion elements:

Statements of the child witnesses implicating the Kerrs in their own sexual abuse and in Wilson's abduction, rape and murder;
Medical examinations of the children that revealed scarring consistent with their tales of sexual molestation;
Confessions and statements supplied by adult witnesses Geer, Martin, and Wanda Kerr, verified by polygraph, consistent with those of the children in implicating the Kerrs in the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Wilson;
Corroborative physical evidence such as masks, knives, and other instrumentalities of restraint and torture that were referred to by the children;
An infrared scanning device and a cadaver-sensing dog suggested the presence of human remains on the Kerr's property, and bones (albeit not conclusively human) were unearthed;
The shed in the Kerrs' backyard--which had been identified by some of the children and the adults as the place where Wilson's body had been kept--was also alerted to by the dog and, suspiciously, showed signs of recent washing and repainting.


IMO....the disturbed soil in the Anthony's back yard, and cleaning of the car creates probable cause. Now, wait for the defense to attempt to get the car thrown out entirely.

Nice find.

Find anything from the 11th Circuit of Appeals? That would be more of an indicator of how the FL Appeals area handles these things.

 

[TrialAddict]

I get a blank page when I try to open. Can you give us an idea of what he said?

I think your blank pages have more logical info.

 

[beach]

Thanks Beach. I'm just used to working with an entirely different class of the legal profession. Never in all my years have I seen such work product garbage. But again I only work in Federal Courts so you tend to see a different level of professionalism. But his level of disrespect for the Court is astounding. Truly. I've never seen anything like it before.

I bet JA laughed his off when he got this in his hands. I know I would.

The visual of Baez arguing before a Federal Court judge is too much for me! :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh: whew! He should never, ever...I mean not EVER.