CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #23

[cluciano63]

**sigh**
It seems as if we picked another one of "those" cases. I have heard of this type situation being called the Casey Anthony effect...as in, prosecutors are very hesitant to take a case to trial these days after what happened in Florida. Public perception has drastically changed with the introduction of forensic/crime tv shows. People think they need "absolute" proof beyond any doubts in order to convict these days. I really think it would be in the best interest of jurors if judges started explaining the difference between "reasonable doubt" and no doubt/proof positive (which rarely exists). To bring a guilty/not guilty verdict, one only needs to understand "reasonable" doubt...as in, what would a reasonable person do, given the same circumstances. Nothing is 100% certain; we can only determine what would be reasonable to believe under the circumstances.
In other words, if we have to give someone a 100 excuses, explanations and reasons to make the facts fit the circumstances it isn't "reasonable". JMO

I know what you are saying, but I do hate cases where even with a verdict, you don't really know what happened. Sometimes you do, like Scott Peterson, even though that was a circumstantial case, but in a missing child case without a body, I think there would always be doubt. It would not be very satisfying to me, to have someone convicted just because. I want to know the truth, but of course, that is not how it works.

 

[NC Analyzer]

LE in Kyron's case have indicated at various times that TH has been a focus of the case. I am not convinced myself, but who knows? No one, apparently.

What I meant about pings was if they have some pings, for example, from MR's phone that don't match where he first said he was, something like that, and it was just an example. It would not be enough to bring charges, that was my point. Maybe his story changed, we would not know that either.

Anyway, my main point is still that unless they suspect MR, I do not understand the wall of silence. It is a huge deal, a child vanishing from a tiny town and yet they have not a word to say. I am we'll aware that they don't have to, but this is a child, and I just disagree with the handling of the case, unless they have a suspect.

Kyron's case has mystified and frustrated me from day one. I have sat on every fence there is on that one. I follow it very closely on another crime forum. There have been "new" (???) developments in recent days so I'm back on my fence. I sure do hope it isn't another smokescreen and something positive develops out of this one. One of the biggest problems that I firmly believe is that LE is throwing up a wall to protect the damn school district from liability. Anyway, another topic, another time.
I do agree with your concerns about LE not coming out with some type of information on Dylan's case. It is appalling and I do have some experience working with LE, so I'm going out on a limb and saying it really isn't the "norm" to NEVER grant a press release. This is unbelievable.

 

[The Cheese]

I decided to take a little break and regroup. Seems we are chewing on the same bone.

I was thinking is it time our United States of America forms some kind of specialists that can come into an area where a child is missing with all the knowledge it takes to undertake that kind of investigation?

A small police force that has never had a child abduction before has to be overwhelmed by all of this.

I have no inside knowledge of how this LE operates but I can kind of guess. They probably have their drunk drivings and domestic cases. So this missing Dylan is way out of their league.

Each of these cases are so very unique in their circumstances. Perhaps we need specialists to handle each of them.

RE Tim Miller the family has to request them and LE has to ok them. Remember too that TM can't be everywhere. Can you imagine the number of requests he must receive each week?

When our children go missing just who can we count on to find them? And how are we supposed to act? How can one of us working and taking care of our families all of a sudden appear on the NG show?

This Missing Dylan needs a hero!

We do have specialists, most notably Team Adam and FBI CARD. Team Adam calls the police department in charge and asks them if they need help. If so, they deploy immediately - that day. One or two people, all highly trained and experienced in missing child cases. All former law enforcement.

For FBI CARD, the police dept has to call them. They deploy within a couple days. Small teams of about a half dozen. Highly trained and experienced in missing child cases.

A few years back, CARD launched a training program. States could choose if they wanted their own state CARD team. If so, they were all trained. The goal was to get a CARD team in every state, I believe.

If a state doesn't have a CARD team, the police dept can request a team from the national CARD.

Both Team Adam and CARD are excellent and very effective. Here's where there's a problem - if the police dept says they don't need help to Team Adam, or they don't call in a CARD team early enough.

I think most police depts now are very good about making that call quickly. In Dylan's case, I think unfortunately, they designated Dylan as a runaway until November 23rd even though Elaine, Mark, and everybody in the community was screaming that Dylan wasn't a runaway. I think it was lack of experience, and probably lack of training on how critical those first few hours are, and how critical it is to make that call for help.

Like they said, they won't make their early mistakes again, but I think the result of not calling, and of only seeing Dylan as a runaway, missed the evidence and possible witnesses (tourists) they may have gotten in the early hours.

I don't know if the police dept followed the model procedures. I have a feeling they didn't. I have to wonder if they even knew about them.

Most police depts in our country are doing well, getting the training, making the call very early, etc.

Maybe one solution is to publish a phone number that parents can call Team Adam or CARD, and give a little card or brochure to them when they make the missing person report.

Sorry to make such a long post.

 

[NC Analyzer]

I know what you are saying, but I do hate cases where even with a verdict, you don't really know what happened. Sometimes you do, like Scott Peterson, even though that was a circumstantial case, but in a missing child case without a body, I think there would always be doubt. It would not be very satisfying to me, to have someone convicted just because. I want to know the truth, but of course, that is not how it works.

Oh, I agree they definitely need a body...especially due to the early reports indicating he may be a runaway. A defense attorney would have a field day with that fact alone. And of course I want to see some fairly concrete evidence...but to be clear here, I want to remind people that circumstantial evidence includes EVERYTHING that isn't eye-witness testimony. Most murder cases are convicted with circumstantial evidence because there isn't always an eye witness.
Circumstantial evidence includes phone records/pings, fingerprints, DNA, blood evidence, medical reports, autopsy, records, records, records, photographs, computer analysis, etc. etc. etc. The list of circumstantial evidence is endless...

 

[Confusion]

LE in Kyron's case have indicated at various times that TH has been a focus of the case. I am not convinced myself, but who knows? No one, apparently.

What I meant about pings was if they have some pings, for example, from MR's phone that don't match where he first said he was, something like that, and it was just an example. It would not be enough to bring charges, that was my point. Maybe his story changed, we would not know that either.

Anyway, my main point is still that unless they suspect MR, I do not understand the wall of silence. It is a huge deal, a child vanishing from a tiny town and yet they have not a word to say. I am we'll aware that they don't have to, but this is a child, and I just disagree with the handling of the case, unless they have a suspect.

Thanks for the info. I have heard about Kyron, but I guess I just didn't realize who TH was. I'm usually good with names, but lousy with faces, but now I think I'm becoming just as lousy with names.

I don't know why they'd be checking his pings, unless they believe DR is alive and MR could lead him to them and don't want to just follow him. I highly doubt they were monitoring his pings the night of the 18th since nothing had happened yet. MOO

If they have actually said that their focus was on a certain person in that case, it makes me feel like it's even less likely that they're focusing on anyone here. I really can't bring myself to think that "We are not calling this person a suspect" is LE speak for, "We believe this person is guilty but can't prove it yet."

If he is guilty, I hope they find evidence soon. If he isn't guilty, I hope they'll try a bit harder to convince people that he isn't (and even better, find out who is.) JMO

 

[PaulR]

please?

She says MR swung at "his son."

Not "her son." Not "our son." "His son."

The police report ER filled out doesn't say which son was there. We know MR had sons from a prior marriage. Was that who was there?

 

[cluciano63]

Thanks for the info. I have heard about Kyron, but I guess I just didn't realize who TH was. I'm usually good with names, but lousy with faces, but now I think I'm becoming just as lousy with names.

I don't know why they'd be checking his pings, unless they believe DR is alive and MR could lead him to them and don't want to just follow him. I highly doubt they were monitoring his pings the night of the 18th since nothing had happened yet. MOO

If they have actually said that their focus was on a certain person in that case, it makes me feel like it's even less likely that they're focusing on anyone here. I really can't bring myself to think that "We are not calling this person a suspect" is LE speak for, "We believe this person is guilty but can't prove it yet."

If he is guilty, I hope they find evidence soon. If he isn't guilty, I hope they'll try a bit harder to convince people that he isn't (and even better, find out who is.) JMO

Mind you, it was a very long time before LE indicated they were looking at TH in Kyron's case, even though it was assumed to be the case. They did not admit for months or maybe longer.

As far as pings, I was referring to if there were any pings that night that did not match where MR had said they were...not pings since or after November 18.


ETA. I still don't know if TH has ever been named an actual suspect.

 

[NC Analyzer]

Thanks for the info. I have heard about Kyron, but I guess I just didn't realize who TH was. I'm usually good with names, but lousy with faces, but now I think I'm becoming just as lousy with names.

I don't know why they'd be checking his pings, unless they believe DR is alive and MR could lead him to them and don't want to just follow him. I highly doubt they were monitoring his pings the night of the 18th since nothing had happened yet. MOO

If they have actually said that their focus was on a certain person in that case, it makes me feel like it's even less likely that they're focusing on anyone here. I really can't bring myself to think that "We are not calling this person a suspect" is LE speak for, "We believe this person is guilty but can't prove it yet."

If he is guilty, I hope they find evidence soon. If he isn't guilty, I hope they'll try a bit harder to convince people that he isn't (and even better, find out who is.) JMO

LE/FBI NEVER named Terri Horman a "suspect" or a "POI" in Kyron's case. It was obvious. Of course the press helped. But it was actually a judge in the Horman divorce that said Terri was the "DeFacto" suspect....and she has been called that ever since.

LE does not (as a general rule) "name" a suspect or a POI these days. There are liability issues as well as the old "tip your hat" excuse they love so much, but if you are expecting LE to name or clear MR, you'll probably be waiting a very long time.
JMO

 

[aust amateur slueth]

I've been thinking over the possibility of Dylan hitch hiking from Vallecito to Bayfield

we know he has hitched with friends before but not that he has hitched alone. We know that hitching was from the library IIRC, so presumably that wasn't rural.



Vallecito is pretty rural so what would the traffic be like on a monday morning?

and I know its a vacation location but how many people would be likely to be there thanksgiving week? is it typical for people to go away for thanksgiving or not? and is it seasonal ie summer for lake activities, hunting, fishing, snow activities?

 

[Confusion]

Mind you, it was a very long time before LE indicated they were looking at TH in Kyron's case, even though it was assumed to be the case. They did not admit for months or maybe longer.

As far as pings, I was referring to if there were any pings that night that did not match where MR had said they were...not pings since or after November 18. And it was just an example,

I highly doubt that they know where any of the "pings" were sent from that night. IMO, the best they could hope for would be knowing which direction he was in from the tower. If MR has GPS on his phone, they could tell more, but I haven't heard anything about that one way or another.

 

[Cardinal47]

We do have specialists, most notably Team Adam and FBI CARD. Team Adam calls the police department in charge and asks them if they need help. If so, they deploy immediately - that day. One or two people, all highly trained and experienced in missing child cases. All former law enforcement.

For FBI CARD, the police dept has to call them. They deploy within a couple days. Small teams of about a half dozen. Highly trained and experienced in missing child cases.

A few years back, CARD launched a training program. States could choose if they wanted their own state CARD team. If so, they were all trained. The goal was to get a CARD team in every state, I believe.

If a state doesn't have a CARD team, the police dept can request a team from the national CARD.

Both Team Adam and CARD are excellent and very effective. Here's where there's a problem - if the police dept says they don't need help to Team Adam, or they don't call in a CARD team early enough.

I think most police depts now are very good about making that call quickly. In Dylan's case, I think unfortunately, they designated Dylan as a runaway until November 23rd even though Elaine, Mark, and everybody in the community was screaming that Dylan wasn't a runaway. I think it was lack of experience, and probably lack of training on how critical those first few hours are, and how critical it is to make that call for help.

Like they said, they won't make their early mistakes again, but I think the result of not calling, and of only seeing Dylan as a runaway, missed the evidence and possible witnesses (tourists) they may have gotten in the early hours.

I don't know if the police dept followed the model procedures. I have a feeling they didn't. I have to wonder if they even knew about them.

Most police depts in our country are doing well, getting the training, making the call very early, etc.

Maybe one solution is to publish a phone number that parents can call Team Adam or CARD, and give a little card or brochure to them when they make the missing person report.

Sorry to make such a long post.

Your post isn't long and I never knew about these groups you talk about. Never heard about them in any of the cases I have followed.

Do you happen to know if the teams you mention were called into any of the recent missing children cases we have blogged about? It just seems so strange I have never heard of them.

I know of Tim Millers Group and also a few others that do searches but never heard of any that actually come in and maybe lead the investigation.

Yes I agree a lot of time was lost in the very beginning. Also nobody can search now nor will they until Spring. Freezing temps and heavy snow.

I wonder if LE is not holding any press conferences because they are afraid of the questions they will be asked and unable to answer? Of course that just compounds the obvious omissions already made in this case.

It just gets worse and worse.

 

[Confusion]

Never mind. I think you answered my question!

 

[Dee10]

Your post isn't long and I never knew about these groups you talk about. Never heard about them in any of the cases I have followed.

Do you happen to know if the teams you mention were called into any of the recent missing children cases we have blogged about? It just seems so strange I have never heard of them.

I know of Tim Millers Group and also a few others that do searches but never heard of any that actually come in and maybe lead the investigation.

Yes I agree a lot of time was lost in the very beginning. Also nobody can search now nor will they until Spring. Freezing temps and heavy snow.

I wonder if LE is not holding any press conferences because they are afraid of the questions they will be asked and unable to answer? Of course that just compounds the obvious omissions already made in this case.

It just gets worse and worse.

I remember the FBI CARD team was called on the Somer Thompson & Horman case. They sometimes assign someone to stay with the family 24/7 over several days & they did that in the Thompson case. If you remember on the last public search MR & ER were assigned a person & I forget the term they used but was skilled in psychology (something like that). I suspect a CARD team member may have been with ER & MR on the search.

 

[The Cheese]

Your post isn't long and I never knew about these groups you talk about. Never heard about them in any of the cases I have followed.

Do you happen to know if the teams you mention were called into any of the recent missing children cases we have blogged about? It just seems so strange I have never heard of them.

I know of Tim Millers Group and also a few others that do searches but never heard of any that actually come in and maybe lead the investigation.

Yes I agree a lot of time was lost in the very beginning. Also nobody can search now nor will they until Spring. Freezing temps and heavy snow.

I wonder if LE is not holding any press conferences because they are afraid of the questions they will be asked and unable to answer? Of course that just compounds the obvious omissions already made in this case.

It just gets worse and worse.

Team Adam works behind the scenes and are rarely mentioned in the media when they're on a case.

When you hear that FBI is on scene in a missing child case, that's CARD if they don't have a state card. Sometimes there are some non-card on site like Jessica Ridgeway's case where they had something like 50 from the BAU alone. CARD (whether state or national) is open when they're on scene, so you will see media mentions. Sometimes though when they say FBI is assisting it's only that FBI is reviewing the case for anything missed, or doing lab work or testing, so again, what to look for is if FBI is on scene.

Is there a specific case you were wondering about? I don't know which ones you follow and there are quite a few here.

 

[The Cheese]

I remember the FBI CARD team was called on the Somer Thompson & Horman case. They sometimes assign someone to stay with the family 24/7 over several days & they did that in the Thompson case. If you remember on the last public search MR & ER were assigned a person & I forget the term they used but was skilled in psychology (something like that). I suspect a CARD team member may have been with ER & MR on the search.

In addition to advising on the investigation, Phippen said the FBI provided two victim specialists to help the family cope with the situation.

http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20121208/NEWS01/121209618

There's a possibility they were BAU, but that's just my own speculation.

 

[Cardinal47]

Team Adam works behind the scenes and are rarely mentioned in the media when they're on a case.

When you hear that FBI is on scene in a missing child case, that's CARD if they don't have a state card. Sometimes there are some non-card on site like Jessica Ridgeway's case where they had something like 50 from the BAU alone. CARD (whether state or national) is open when they're on scene, so you will see media mentions. Sometimes though when they say FBI is assisting it's only that FBI is reviewing the case for anything missed, or doing lab work or testing, so again, what to look for is if FBI is on scene.

Is there a specific case you were wondering about? I don't know which ones you follow and there are quite a few here.

I guess the case that came to mind was Isabelle Celis.

 

[mmmagique]

the way I took it is that he has not been violent towards his children in the past but he did report violence visited on his own person.


per the what the media has been able to dig up that is.

We know that he "swung" at his minor children. What non-violent person does that?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

**sigh**
It seems as if we picked another one of "those" cases. I have heard of this type situation being called the Casey Anthony effect...as in, prosecutors are very hesitant to take a case to trial these days after what happened in Florida. Public perception has drastically changed with the introduction of forensic/crime tv shows. People think they need "absolute" proof beyond any doubts in order to convict these days. I really think it would be in the best interest of jurors if judges started explaining the difference between "reasonable doubt" and no doubt/proof positive (which rarely exists). To bring a guilty/not guilty verdict, one only needs to understand "reasonable" doubt...as in, what would a reasonable person do, given the same circumstances. Nothing is 100% certain; we can only determine what would be reasonable to believe under the circumstances.
In other words, if we have to give someone a 100 excuses, explanations and reasons to make the facts fit the circumstances it isn't "reasonable". JMO

But crime shows have been on since the early 90s. Law and Order started in 1990. Then, you had all the spin-offs. CSI started in early 00s. Criminal Minds in 2005. I'm not sure why they would start having an effect in the 2010s decade.

I'm not sure if people not being charged with murder of a child without a body is an effect of the Anthony verdict. There definitely weren't many (or any?) no-body missing child cases pre-2011.

 

[Confusion]

Following up on Nurse's post above - let's move on from the front yard. This is not a contest to see who is the better parent. It is a discussion thread for trying to find Dylan. Let's get back to that, okay, and stop poking at each other. It just isn't necessary.

Thanks,

Salem

Just wanted to be the one who's behaving for a change!

 

[Confusion]

<SNIP> Frankly, I believe her.

Obviously, but that doesn't mean everybody has to. MOO