CO- Dylan Redwine, 13, Vallecito, 19 November 2012 - #25

[Redhead72]

I'm still reading the article that you linked (thanks) but I have a question. How long is the "short amount of time" that you speak of ?

Ranch & Confusion:
I'm actually still googling right now to see if I can't find a better article WRT exact amount of time providers keep their data. I'm going to assume that it varies depending upon provider, but that is and assumption. I'll definitely post if I find better reference, and exact notations on time periods.

Confusion - that's what you are looking for a link to, correct? The amount of time records are kept? Or, were you referring to the comment about the government not keeping records officially, or without warrant? [Of course, the question about the gov't is a hot issue politically WRT the Patriot Act, Warrantless Wire-tapping by the Feds, etc... I basically assume that our government can and does hack, wiretap, etc... anything they can. And, I'm not overly conspiratorial thinking either. Just that with the gov't technology so much more advanced than that available to the general public, and having read about prototype technology over the years, that it's obvious they can do so much more than a civilian could dream they could (or that they think is only in a movie). Sorry, I know this is OT, and I hope people understand that it's not just here in the US, but EVERY government in the world with the capability tracks their citizens in one way or another, or can access things to track them if the need arises.]

 

[Deleted member 39678]

MSM Link discussing Cell phone pinging, and the types of records cell companies keep...
http://redtape.nbcnews.com/_news/20...and-carriers-earn-from-cellphone-records?lite
EXCLUSIVE: What local cops learn, and carriers earn, from cellphone records

The companies DO keep recent ping/interaction with cell tower information for at least a short period of time.

Do you happen to remember years back (probably around 2005-07) when that teen was abducted from the Target (I remember the surveillance footage of her in shorts and a spaghetti strap top)? Her abductor took her over state lines into Missouri IIRC, and they found her body by using the records of the cell tower "Pings" from her phone and that's how they figured out she was out-of-state. [I'm sorry I can't remember her name right now. I mostly remember an argument I had with some chauvinistic pig saying she was dressed "too skimpy" (sorry, totally OT, but that's why I remember her case).]

ETA: I found the case I was speaking of... The young woman's name was Kelsey Smith, and the perp was Edwin Roy Hall. It took Verizon four days to release the records to LE in her search. They located her body 1.1 miles away from the last tower they passed... Here is an except from the Kelsey Smith's Wikipedia Page.

I read the article that you provided and I didn't see anything about cell phone companies storing tower information. I don't believe that you were trying to deceive me so I hope that you can provide another source to back up your claim.

 

[Redhead72]

WOW... That didn't take long to find. If I knew it was this easy I wouldn't have bothered with that last post.

Here is an article from NBC detailing exactly how long various providers keep your data for:
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/how-long-do-wireless-carriers-keep-your-data-120367

EXCERPT:

Here's a snapshot for subscribers of the four major carriers' policies, each with differing lengths of time for how long they keep data:

Verizon: Keeps records of calls and cell towers used for a year; text message details are retained for up to one year, actual text message content between 3 to 5 days; Internet session information for up to a year, and Web sites visited for up to 90 days.

AT&T: Stores call records for between 5 to 7 years; cell tower records since July 2008; text message details for between 5 to 7 years; text message content is not retained; Internet session information and destinations for up to 72 hours.

Sprint: Hangs onto call records and cell tower records for between 18 and 24 months. Internet session and destination info for up to 60 days; text message details for up to 18 months, depending on the device; text message content not retained; Internet session info and destination info for up to 60 days.

T-Mobile: Retains call record details for 5 years; cell towers used, "officially, 4-6 months, really a year or more;" text message details 5 years; text message content, not kept; Internet session and destination info is not kept.

A complete list is available at the ACLU website here: http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-loca...ponse-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart

This information was compiled by the ACLU in 2010.

Honestly I thought they only kept the ping info. for a matter of days/weeks, not YEARS. I was way off on that! My apologies.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

WOW... That didn't take long to find. If I knew it was this easy I wouldn't have bothered with that last post.

Here is an article from NBC detailing exactly how long various providers keep your data for:
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/how-long-do-wireless-carriers-keep-your-data-120367

EXCERPT:

A complete list is available at the ACLU website here: http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-loca...ponse-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart

This information was compiled by the ACLU in 2010.

Honestly I thought they only kept the ping info. for a matter of days/weeks, not YEARS. I was way off on that! My apologies.

I'm looking for cell tower triangulation information. This looks like information from a single tower for billing purposes. How would this historical information pinpoint a cell phones location?

 

[Redhead72]

I'm looking for cell tower triangulation information. This looks like information from a single tower for billing purposes. How would this historical information pinpoint a cell phones location?

No, pings are not for billing purposes. Call records are for billing purposes.
They can triangulate a cell location by looking at which towers they have passed, the direction of travel, the last ping received, etc...

They have used this information in numerous cases over the years to pinpoint exact locations of bodies, and perps. Like in the case I linked to Kelsey Smith - the Verizon Tech told the LE to look 1.1 miles north of the last tower they passed. It's likely that they have maps of "overlap" where coverage extends from any given tower. Within 45 mins. of receiving the Verizon ping records from Kelsey's phone they were able to locate her body, exactly where the phone records indicated she would be. Please note: She did not place any calls, or texts. They had the ping information simply because her phone was "on" after she was abducted.

ETA: I'm by no means an expert in Cellular System Technology Forensics. And, it takes a fair amount of highly technical training to be able to use a ping to graph a radius as that radius of coverage can be affected by numerous things. Honestly, I'd have to spend at least a day reading more on exactly how it's done if you want technical info. This is pretty "Old" technology in regard to LE using tower pings to located crime scenes, provide detail on if someone was in the general area of a crime or not, etc... It's a very common practice, and there are a lot of references available if you wish to learn more.

ETA2: Triangulate is probably not the best word to use when referencing Cell Tower pings. The triangulation technique is how GPS works, and why it is able to be so accurate, and please don't ask me to get into the details of how GPS works tonight. LOL I'm about to fall asleep at my desk here.

ETA3: This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but contains some interesting information on mistakes made at times in regard to cell tower historical ping records. It also contained the following gem which is right along with what you were asking about though:

http://exforensis.blogspot.com/2012/08/cell-tower-tracking-how-accurate-is-it.html

A call detail record is a technical and financial record of a call, not a location record for a call. What this means is that the call detail record will contain the calling phone number, the dial digits in some cases, the dialed number, the date and time the call starts, the duration of the call and the date and time the call ends. It will also contain the initial cell tower used to make the call, and sometimes, it will contain the last cell tower in use when the call is completed as well as the switch ID for the cell tower. It may or may not contain any information regarding the sector used by the phone for a tower.

Also this:

Triangulation

Sometimes people mistakenly say that a cell phone was triangulated using call detail records. This is an impossibility. A call detail record only gives the location of a single cell tower that was used to connect a cell phone to the phone system for a call.

To triangulate a phone you need to have a minimum of three known locations at a known distance from the phone. Triangulation of a phone is only possible when using the 911 system to locate the phone. This would have to be done in real time and is not possible to do after the fact.

 

[goaskalice]

clarification on forensics:

I am also referring to cell phone forensics etc

I think that will play a huge part of this case after it is all said and done.

They will be able to ping MR's cell phone and the TIMES. In other words say he claims to get home at 8pm but his phone is still pinging near the airport or the store, etc.

Is that enough to arrest someone? No... but it certainly builds a case


(***this is just an example***)

I do think that they have forensics that help them out here.. jmhoo however.

Exactly Nurse, they are doing all of those things that we are thinking about but can't do ourselves. I guess I just want to make sure no one drops the ball here. I am certain they will be checking the lake in Spring. Looking at Airport and Wallmart film. Following tips and leads re. Cell phone pings. Driving the route taken and searching. I wish I could help more.

 

[PaulR]

He told the family friend who ran the FB that they discussed Thanksgiving plans. [ according to what she said on NG.]

But then in an interview he said they didnt have any plans yet, according to what he said in that video store interview.

This is consistent. They discussed possible plans (staying at home or going to his brother's house), but didn't have any firm plans (they hadn't decided which.)

 

[Deleted member 39678]

No, pings are not for billing purposes. Call records are for billing purposes.
They can triangulate a cell location by looking at which towers they have passed, the direction of travel, the last ping received, etc...

They have used this information in numerous cases over the years to pinpoint exact locations of bodies, and perps. Like in the case I linked to Kelsey Smith - the Verizon Tech told the LE to look 1.1 miles north of the last tower they passed. It's likely that they have maps of "overlap" where coverage extends from any given tower. Within 45 mins. of receiving the Verizon ping records from Kelsey's phone they were able to locate her body, exactly where the phone records indicated she would be. Please note: She did not place any calls, or texts. They had the ping information simply because her phone was "on" after she was abducted.

So your saying that everyone carrying a cellphone is always being tracked everywhere they go with the accuracy to find a human body? And the government can get that information at any time they want?

Now that's scary. Whats next. Embedded RF chips?

 

[Redhead72]

So your saying that everyone carrying a cellphone is always being tracked everywhere they go with the accuracy to find a human body? And the government can get that information at any time they want?

Now that's scary. Whats next. Embedded RF chips?

Ummm, basically, yes... As long as the battery is in your phone. I mean we're not talking GPS accuracy, but rather a "grid" accuracy depending upon which tower, how many towers are around it it could be a small area, or an area covering hundreds of acres.

PS - I added a few things to that last post in regard to Cellular Forensics, an article link, and a few excerpts you may be interested in.

ETA: I'm going to read up on another case or two here, and then head to bed, so I'll stop by when I wake up tomorrow, and see if I can't clarify anything else, or help to locate more info. for those who wish to learn more.


OT - FruitTingles - I see you lurking! LOL Tell that baby to hurry up already, huh? Here's hoping she decides to say hello REALLY soon - I remember how impatient I was with all the physical discomfort at full-term. Hope you're doing well.

 

[Confusion]

WOW... That didn't take long to find. If I knew it was this easy I wouldn't have bothered with that last post.

Here is an article from NBC detailing exactly how long various providers keep your data for:
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/technolog/how-long-do-wireless-carriers-keep-your-data-120367

EXCERPT:

A complete list is available at the ACLU website here: http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-loca...ponse-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart

This information was compiled by the ACLU in 2010.

Honestly I thought they only kept the ping info. for a matter of days/weeks, not YEARS. I was way off on that! My apologies.

That shows that they keep call, text and tower records, but I see nothing about keeping records of pings when the phone is not in use. MOO

 

[Redhead72]

That shows that they keep call, text and tower records, but I see nothing about keeping records of pings when the phone is not in use. MOO

Tower records are the ping records. Your cellphone pings a tower everytime it passes one as long as it is on. It doesn't have to be "In use" for it to ping towers - you don't actually have to be using the phone to make or receive a call, or make and receive a text for it to ping the tower as you pass it.

ETA: A cell phone that is "on" pings the nearest tower every few seconds. Sorry for my decreasing clarity... Waiting for my hubby to come home from work, but trying to stay up until he does, or I get nervous and can't sleep anyway.

 

[Confusion]

Tower records are the ping records. Your cellphone pings a tower everytime it passes one as long as it is on. It doesn't have to be "In use" for it to ping towers - you don't actually have to be using the phone to make or receive a call, or make and receive a text for it to ping the tower as you pass it.

I know what pings are, and I see nothing in that article about them saving records of pings when the phone wasn't in use.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Tower records are the ping records. Your cellphone pings a tower everytime it passes one as long as it is on. It doesn't have to be "In use" for it to ping towers - you don't actually have to be using the phone to make or receive a call, or make and receive a text for it to ping the tower as you pass it.

My question is, why would a cell phone company save every single ping that hits every tower they have and put it into a database? They don't bill their customers by "tower pings" so why keep track of every ping?

 

[Confusion]

Tower records are the ping records. Your cellphone pings a tower everytime it passes one as long as it is on. It doesn't have to be "In use" for it to ping towers - you don't actually have to be using the phone to make or receive a call, or make and receive a text for it to ping the tower as you pass it.

ETA: A cell phone that is "on" pings the nearest tower every few seconds. Sorry for my decreasing clarity... Waiting for my hubby to come home from work, but trying to stay up until he does, or I get nervous and can't sleep anyway.

I'm just waiting for a scan to finish on my computer, but I think I could sleep pretty easily otherwise.

 

[PaulR]

My question is, why would a cell phone company save every single ping that hits every tower they have and put it into a database? They don't bill their customers by "tower pings" so why keep track of every ping?

It may be legal requirements, or to see how many customers are hitting towers to know if more are needed.

Also, many companies log more data than they "need" to anyway.

 

[Confusion]

It may be legal requirements, or to see how many customers are hitting towers to know if more are needed.

Also, many companies log more data than they "need" to anyway.

They probably keep track of the number of pings they get per year/day/hour/minute whatever for each tower, but I don't believe they could store information about every phone that pinged every tower every minute of every day for years if they wanted to. MOO

 

[PaulR]

They probably keep track of the number of pings they get per year/day/hour/minute whatever for each tower, but I don't believe they could store information about every phone that pinged every tower every minute of every day for years if they wanted to. MOO

I'm going to bed but I'll try to calculate storage space tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It may be legal requirements, or to see how many customers are hitting towers to know if more are needed.

Also, many companies log more data than they "need" to anyway.

Legal requirements? Like what? So you need to collect and save all of this personal data to see if your system is overloaded? I don't think so. MOO.

 

[Redhead72]

OK, Hubby is home, so this is my last post tonight...

This explains it a lot better than I would be able to at the moment:
http://insidedateline.nbcnews.com/_news/2007/01/23/4374177-cell-phone-forensics?lite

Cell phones are constantly communicating with a network, sending pings to the nearest transmission tower, which allows your calls to be routed correctly.
Multiple antennas are tracking your phone's signal, since each tower only covers a few square miles. But, as you move, your call travels with you and is handed off to the base station receiving the strongest signal from your phone. The carrier keeps records of which towers the phone has contacted or pinged, and when. Which means a cell phone's position over time can be tracked within a few hundred yards. In urban areas with many towers, a phone can be tracked almost to the block. And as most phones become equipped with GPS chips, they only need to be turned ON to pinpoint your location in real time!

I can't make you believe me. I've shown evidence of how they use the records, Which companies keep which records, and for how long. Links to cases where they used the ping information not received when the phone was "in use", but merely on. Call Records are different than Tower Records - the link to the blog with forensics in the name explains that.

The only thing I can suggest at this point is to read up on it yourself. And, yes, it's very possible they can store this information for extended periods of time without a great deal of space needed. We're talking digital records - not written ones. Coded information - all numbers.

 

[Confusion]

I'll explain it to you later, it's getting close to daylight already.