Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[MemPat]

Google Maps Directions cites the driving distance from Houston to Orlando as 963 miles. KK did 1520 miles just to clean up, and didn't use diapers. At least that's the story I heard.
JMO
Google Maps

Okay.

 

[MassGuy]

Google Maps Directions cites the driving distance from Houston to Orlando as 963 miles. KK did 1520 miles just to clean up, and didn't use diapers. At least that's the story I heard.
JMO
Google Maps

Are you saying she teleported?

 

[MemPat]

Are you saying she teleported?

Without diapers.

 

[MassGuy]

Without diapers.

Well you wouldn’t teleport with diapers. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Seattle1]

According to Google Maps Directions, the driving distance from Vancouver, BC to Denver and the to Dawson Creek, Yukon Territory is 3781 miles. KKL described driving a minimum 6184 miles at PF's bidding to fulfill his solicitations and provide cleanup, and LE didn't bat an eye. Prosecution believes it so much they are going to court with as the theory of the crime.
JMO
Google Maps

Huh?

The Vancouver BC - Denver, Co - Yukon, YT is a fantasy, but Hansen, ID to
Woodland Park, Co is about 773 miles.

Sounds like your post is also fantasy, and not the evidence prosecutors are going to trial with.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS810US810&ei=4fWOXeX6F6nN0PEPgtiGqAE&q=distance+hansen%2C+ID+to+Woodland+Park%2C+CO&oq=distance+hansen%2C+ID+to+Woodland+Park%2C+CO&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299l2.21513.40803..41564...0.0..2.116.4149.60j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....6..0i13j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i362i308i154i357j0i273j0j0i131j0i67j33i160j33i22i29i30.1E6zM1WbtxQ&ved=0ahUKEwil79m66vLkAhWpJjQIHQKsARUQ4dUDCAs&uact=

 

[Dave F.]

Huh?

The Vancouver BC - Denver, Co - Yukon, YT is a fantasy, but Hansen, ID to
Woodland Park, Co is about 773 miles.

Sounds like your post is also fantasy, and not the evidence prosecutors are going to trial with.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS810US810&ei=4fWOXeX6F6nN0PEPgtiGqAE&q=distance+hansen%2C+ID+to+Woodland+Park%2C+CO&oq=distance+hansen%2C+ID+to+Woodland+Park%2C+CO&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299l2.21513.40803..41564...0.0..2.116.4149.60j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....6..0i13j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i362i308i154i357j0i273j0j0i131j0i67j33i160j33i22i29i30.1E6zM1WbtxQ&ved=0ahUKEwil79m66vLkAhWpJjQIHQKsARUQ4dUDCAs&uact=

I think that's exactly what I said. 773 miles one way, times two to get home, times four trips (3 solicitations and one cleanup) is 6,184 miles. The math evidence doesn't lie, or exagerate. IMO

 

[gitana1]

I disagree. They aren't the same thing according to this link.

JMO

Evidence: Definition and Types

Evidence is used at trials to prove or disprove certain facts that would tend to show whether something was true or not. There are four types evidence by which facts can be proven or disproven at trial which include:

1. 
   
   
   • Real evidence;
   • Demonstrative evidence;
   • Documentary evidence; and
   • Testimonial evidence.

Not all of these types of evidence carry the same weight at trial. For instance, real evidence may be more believable than demonstrative evidence. It's the jury's role to weigh each type of evidence and make a determination as to the believability of the evidence presented.

Real and Demonstrative Evidence - FindLaw

That's beautiful but all of those types of evidence are facts. Evidence is actually a synonym for fact. Because evidence is made up of facts.

So let's be logical. Saying that LE explores theories based on the facts at hand is the same as saying LE explores theories based on the evidence at hand. We all know what is meant here. we don't have to be silly. LE doesn't explore every possible theory just for fun. They have to have a basis in reality.

There is no evidence of any kind of some mythical hit man. No evidence of any kind that KK was on the scene as a "hit man" either.

 

[MemPat]

Well you wouldn’t teleport with diapers. That would be ridiculous.

Is that a theory?

 

[Sillybilly]

Stop the arguing and personalizing in this thread.

Websleuths' policy is that theories / speculation must be based on some semblance of known fact (available evidence / fact as we know it via MSM), not on just something that is remotely possible.

Edited to hopefully clarify.

 

[Seattle1]

I have a genuine question for everyone. Why do we have to only discuss the one theory police have, and KK gave? This is a thread dedicated to KB. We want her killer to get convicted. Why do you not want posters to comment on alternate theories?

Since there has been no trial and no conviction, why does it irritate you that someone thinks PF could have wanted to hire a hit man and paid KK to find him? He would still have the same result. But since LE tied KK to this, isn’t it possible she didn’t want to say she paid a hit man for fear of that person? And since LE knew there were solicitations it was better for her to lay the blame on PF?

I understand the simplest theory is usually right but why are other ideas attacked? When you do that you run other posters off the thread. Is that the goal here?

It’s a fair question. If you want us gone, say so. Otherwise, we just join in unison and it makes for a dull thread.

Websleuths' policy is that theories / speculation must be based on some semblance of known fact (available evidence / fact as we know it via MSM), not on just something that is remotely possible.

 

[katydid23]

That's your opinion, not fact. A real fact is that PF is charged with solicitation. That is street lingo for "hit man" whether you agree or not.


A jury on Friday found Linda Gillman guilty of trying to hire a hit man to kill her ex-husband in 2016.....The verdict on Friday afternoon was a split decision. Charged with two counts of first-degree felony criminal solicitation, Gillman, 70, was found guilty of conspiring to kill her ex-husband, but was acquitted of trying to have the ex-husband’s wife killed.

Jury convicts Utah woman in ‘hired hit man’ case, as prosecutors file new charges alleging she wanted two others killed in addition to her ex-husband

No one is denying that PF tried to convince KK to be his 'hit man.' I think we all agree that he did. The evidence seems to back that up, as KK's Aunt was even taken along on one of the failed attempts.

My question is how does that turn into this other theory that KK hired another hitman, then she planted blood in the condo to stage a crime scene? What evidence is there that any of that happened?

 

[katydid23]

I think that's exactly what I said. 773 miles one way, times two to get home, times four trips (3 solicitations and one cleanup) is 6,184 miles. The math evidence doesn't lie, or exagerate. IMO

So? My parents live about 600 miles away. I have driven up there about 4 times in the past year or so.

How is that unbelievable or unusual?

 

[pcrum12]

I believe, once and for all, there are many states where teens are in prison for life almost (or 20 year olds) that may have just happened to be part of something and allegedly thought their buddy was just going to rob and they had no idea they would kill. KK KNEW. They discussed such. KK COULD HAVE stopped it, saved her, went to LE. Legally I have no idea with Colorado and I do not think anyone does of what the defense or prosecution have right now. If you have such, please share it.

We only know for the most part what KK SAID (I do not disagree they have likely corroborated some things and hopefully a ton of them).

I have said even I think just yesterday I don't want either of them on the street and quite honestly, we do NOT know what either side has but we do know some of what KK said.

I want our FBI, Colorado's LE and DA May, etc. to have a twist and Hang 'Em High per Clint... Both of them. That would be a beautiful ending to an evil murder and disposal and lies *edited to fix* regarding the murder of a young mother.

Perhaps it is a female thing, you have seen a few others (well I think if you read them all no offense, who say the same). It is not a harsher judgment on the female but PF is not on the street running around.

Do I have any proof of who did what? No, I don't think any of us do. However, we have more out of her mouth of the PARTS she admitted to than him.

All they had to do, imo, was play a little tougher. Give her ten years, 20 and perhaps those who feel it is fair would let it go. It is like she and her attorney made and demanded all of the rules?? Down to cameras of KK? She is getting less than some 17 year old with alcohol quite possibly. Yes, it disgusts me and I shall stay that way. I have not proven anything, I am going by what she herself admitted to even.

I honestly think your DA is not 100 percent tickled with this case and what has been handed to him. However, again that is jmo.

In Maleah's case everyone is yelling for the mother to be arrested. I don't like her a bit and maybe she deserves it but she has never been charged and I thought per TOS they could not do that. Here KK has been charged, has admitted to things, still has a nursing license, etc. and it feels like she is defended. Some of us get told we defend PF (and I do not) and others (edited to fix) trash KK about Sonic but take her words as fact. That woman from a woman's instinct is a flat out liar. I do believe there is some truth in her statements.

And please believe me that if PF right now was out on bail, I would yell as loud or LOUDER than anyone and have a TOTAL FIT.

I just think, imo anyhow, if one truly cares about the victims (we all are different and have different views--at least I think that), that of course one will admit if they have to, that a part of them worries that justice will be served even if they say they implicitly trust their LE, the case and their DA.

I understand that things ad nauseum get old but many of us are here far less than some. I get tired too of the Sonic thing, and stuff that has nothing to do with what is called a debate, discussion, etc. This is the most active I have been in ages.

I just simply thus far do not think they vetted her enough. I hope I find out otherwise. I hope the prosecution slam dunks EVERYTHING and again, they both go away.

I am almost without fail pro prosecution.

It is almost worse than politics that sometimes no one can have an opinion or discuss or be even in the middle.

<modsnip>

ETA: My caps are not yelling--they are for once and for all to hopefully reach an understanding and emphasis as my views are taken wrong.

I find this interesting: Colorado Criminal "Conspiracy" Laws | 18-2-201 CRS

 

[steeltowngirl]

So you are saying that murder charges were filed without evidence that Kelsey is even dead?

This is patently false, and ridiculously absurd. That is not how it works.

We can narrow down the time of death to a two hour period on Thanksgiving Day.

We can put the defendant there, because of surveillance footage and cell phone evidence.

We know that he was there for nefarious purposes, because he LIED about it.

We know that Kelsey was never heard from or seen again.

We know that he left with Kelsey’s cell phone, because phone records put Kelsey’s phone at the same location as his, for the next two days.

We know that house is a crime scene, because of the blood evidence, witness statements, and his lie about being there in the first place.

This is a circumstantial case, and anyone with the ability to use logic and reason, can put the pieces together.

A crime doesn’t need to be caught on video, nor does there have to be a body, weapon, motive, or autopsy finding.

Kelsey not being dead is a hell of a hill to die on.

Just adding to your list that there was a suggested motive per the wrongful death suit:

"Upon information and belief, Frazee had motive to kill Kelsey in that he wanted full custody of KB and/or Kelsey to leave KB with him and Kelsey would not agree; Upon information and belief, Frazee had an opportunity to kill Kelsey or have Kelsey killed in that he had her keys and, because he had her gun, she was vulnerable to an attack."

Wrongful death lawsuit against Patrick Frazee reveals possible motive

 

[Area52]

There is no evidence PF murdered Kelsey because there is no evidence she is dead. No ME is going to testify about date, manner or cause of death. No crime scene. No weapon. There also is no evidence of motive for PF which a jury in a murder case always likes to know. There will be evidence KK lied to the FBI.

Good luck on winning a conviction on wishful thinking. The jury is going to want real evidence or they will return a verdict similar to the Skylar Richardson case.

JMO

I'm pretty sure that the judge has seen enough "evidence " (facts) in this case to support first degree murder charges, or PF would not be held WITHOUT BAIL.

 

[GordianKnot]

I'm pretty sure that the judge has seen enough "evidence " (facts) in this case to support first degree murder charges, or PF would not be held WITHOUT BAIL.

That is such a great point.

The idea that there is "no evidence" that KB is dead and/or "no evidence" that PF murdered her is absolutely ludicrous.

Judge Sells clearly disagrees that there is "no evidence" that KB is dead and that PF murdered her:

Arraignment in case against Patrick Frazee postponed until May 24
SABBM:
A judge ruled Tuesday that there is enough evidence for Frazee to stand trial for the charges against him. He is slated to be arraigned on April 8 at 8:30 a.m.

Court Update: Patrick Frazee's Lover Was Told To Drug Kelsey Berreth's Coffee
SABBM:
After the hearing that lasted several hours on Tuesday, Teller County Judge Scott Sells confirmed that there is enough evidence for Frazee to stand trial for murder and other charges.

READ FOR YOURSELF: Arrest affidavit released in case against Patrick Frazee
SABBM:
A judge ruled on Tuesday there is enough evidence to move forward to trial after hearing hours of testimony from investigators.

The District Attorney’s Office is pursuing 8 counts against Patrick Frazee:

• Murder in the First Degree
• Solicitation to Commit Murder in the First Degree
• Murder in the First Degree
• Solicitation to Commit Murder in the First Degree
• Solicitation to Commit Murder in the First Degree
• Tampering with a Deceased Human Body
• Crime of Violence
• Crime of Violence

For those who would argue that there is "no evidence" that KB is dead and that PF murdered her, I would recommend that you also read the arrest affidavit. Link here:

https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/04th_Judicial_District/Teller/caseofinterest/2018CR330/Application and Affidavit for Arrest Warrant.pdf

It's 10 pages long.

*Spoiler Alert: Those aren't blank pages.

JMO.

 

[Dave F.]

The condition of “NO BOND” was requested in the original APPLICATION FOR ARREST WARRANT and approved by signature of Judge Larry Martin, of Division E, El Paso County on Thursday, December 20, 2018. That condition has not changed.
Colorado Judicial Branch - Bio

 

[mickey2942]

PF actually had a pretty good plan. The weak link was KK.

 

[MassGuy]

PF actually had a pretty good plan. The weak link was KK.

Had he simply made Kelsey disappear, I’m convinced he would have gotten away with this.

Law enforcement wouldn’t have had enough to file charges, let alone for murder.

His genius plan of keeping Kelsey’s phone, traveling with it, and texting and calling her from the same room, is the epitome of stupid.

Even with this stupid mistake though, there was still no body, no crime scene, and no proof that the underlying crime was murder.

KK was definitely the weak link.

 

[MyBelle]

No one is denying that PF tried to convince KK to be his 'hit man.' I think we all agree that he did. The evidence seems to back that up, as KK's Aunt was even taken along on one of the failed attempts.

My question is how does that turn into this other theory that KK hired another hitman, then she planted blood in the condo to stage a crime scene? What evidence is there that any of that happened?

According to KK's statement to LE, PF wanted her to kill KB and she couldn't bring herself to do it. Why is it such a stretch to believe she wouldn't find someone else to do it for her?

It isn't an "other" theory. PF has been charged with solicitation. To me, it doesn't matter who was solicited whether it was KK or someone else.

Planting a little blood (if it was blood) isn't staging a crime scene. There needs to be a lot of blood to the point there was no chance for survival.

I don't believe PF would premeditate a killing in a townhome using bloody violence, remove the body, purse and cell phone but leave behind bloody, incriminating evidence including the murder weapon, one of KB's teeth and risk someone finding the scene while KK made the long trip from Idaho. He didn't need to use a ball bat to kill KB. He was much bigger and could have used his bare hands, a choke hold or poisoned her coffee with the drugs KK intended to use.

JMO
COUNT 2 - SOLICITATION TO COMMIT MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE
Between and including September 1, 2018 and November 1, 2018, PATRICK FRAZEE unlawfully and feloniously commanded, induced, entered, or otherwise attempted to persuade another person to commit the felony of murder in the first degree, with intent to promote or facilitate the commission of that crime and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent.
Fiance charged with murder of missing Colo. woman