Deceased/Not Found CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #55 *ARREST*

[MyBelle]

With all due respect, it is also part of the very problem. She as another woman let this happen to a woman. Another mother let it happen to a mother.

I for one do not think she is the "most guilty". I want them both off of the streets and NOWHERE near my loved ones.

A WOMAN LOST HER LIFE. A MOTHER LOST HER LIFE. Baby K has no MOTHER. And KK at minimum knew it was going to happen and went to do it herself as well and then lied. KB IS DEAD.

She could have stayed in ID and NEVER came and cleaned up or ditched anything if her story is true. She had choices. She could have told the truth from day one.

I also do not believe she just chickened out each time--she may have but not because she did not want to do it. One time was because of dogs barking. She did not want to get CAUGHT. Imo.

It is pretty bad when women have to still fight for the right to have an opinion and even worse when it is with other females. Or that one would not warn another over a murder plot to end her life over some cowboy with bad bangs and a mama's boy to boot.

I want to make clear that this is not directed at you at all but just generally. I used the post as a jumping off point.

Jmo.

BBM. You raise excellent points and have from the beginning. The defense will attack KK's credibility every chance it gets. Compare this case with another case on WS that also involves a missing mother who has not been recovered, Jennifer Dulos. It is a stark contrast to this one in the way the respective DA's have handled charges and information given to the media. The husband and his helper/lover have only been charged with lessor crimes and are out on bail despite the fact that security video caught them disposing of items with JD's DNA and other forensic evidence that isn't present in this case because KK destroyed evidence. My hope remains that the feds will charge KK for her federal crimes including lying to federal agents, the fraudulent text messages and whatever else they can throw at her.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

BBM. You raise excellent points and have from the beginning. The defense will attack KK's credibility every chance it gets. Compare this case with another case on WS that also involves a missing mother who has not been recovered, Jennifer Dulos. It is a stark contrast to this one in the way the respective DA's have handled charges and information given to the media. The husband and his helper/lover have only been charged with lessor crimes and are out on bail despite the fact that security video caught them disposing of items with JD's DNA and other forensic evidence that isn't present in this case because KK destroyed evidence. My hope remains that the feds will charge KK for her federal crimes including lying to federal agents, the fraudulent text messages and whatever else they can throw at her.

JMO

In this case, the woman involved was holding all the cards. She had the key to making sense of the rest of the evidence, directed law enforcement to new evidence, and moved the needle from “violent altercation” to murder.

In the Dulos case, MT has been less than cooperative. Even if she were to be fully cooperative, she doesn’t appear to have as much to offer the prosecution.

In this one, they had all the evidence they needed to charge PF with this crime, and that’s why we saw such a quick arrest.

Different circumstances, different jurisdictions, different evidence, and varying levels of involvement and cooperation from the respective women.

So it’s not really a solid comparison.

 

[MyBelle]

In this case, the woman involved was holding all the cards. She had the key to making sense of the rest of the evidence, directed law enforcement to new evidence, and moved the needle from “violent altercation” to murder.

In the Dulos case, MT has been less than cooperative. Even if she were to be fully cooperative, she doesn’t appear to have as much to offer the prosecution.

In this one, they had all the evidence they needed to charge PF with this crime, and that’s why we saw such a quick arrest.

Different circumstances, different jurisdictions, different evidence, and varying levels of involvement and cooperation from the respective women.

So it’s not really a solid comparison.

BBM. Not so. MT's cooperating because she's repeatedly been slapped with charges. I consider it an incredibly solid comparison so we'll agree to disagree.

I wish the DA in the Frazee case much luck in persuading 12 jurors that KK has told the truth and nothing but the truth and that's why he cut a sweet deal with her before local LE even knew what she had to say.

JMO

In a third police interview conducted in August with Troconis under “pointed questioning” from state police detectives, she contradicted her earlier statements, admitting she was at the home where Dulos cleaned the red Toyota truck state police allege was used to transport Farber Dulos’ body out of New Canaan. Troconis also acknowledged that she was aware Dulos had the truck washed and detailed a few days later.


The new details about Dulos’ activities and Troconis’ admissions are contained in arrest warrants released this week following new charges.

Michelle Troconis, the girlfriend of Fotis Dulos, goes from possible alibi to key witness against her boyfriend in his estranged wife’s disappearance

 

[MassGuy]

BBM. Not so. MT's cooperating because she's repeatedly been slapped with charges. I consider it an incredibly solid comparison so we'll agree to disagree.

I wish the DA in the Frazee case much luck in persuading 12 jurors that KK has told the truth and nothing but the truth and that's why he cut a sweet deal with her before local LE even knew what she had to say.

JMO

In a third police interview conducted in August with Troconis under “pointed questioning” from state police detectives, she contradicted her earlier statements, admitting she was at the home where Dulos cleaned the red Toyota truck state police allege was used to transport Farber Dulos’ body out of New Canaan. Troconis also acknowledged that she was aware Dulos had the truck washed and detailed a few days later.


The new details about Dulos’ activities and Troconis’ admissions are contained in arrest warrants released this week following new charges.

Michelle Troconis, the girlfriend of Fotis Dulos, goes from possible alibi to key witness against her boyfriend in his estranged wife’s disappearance

If you read that second arrest warrant and believe she is being truthful, then I think you’re in the minority. She’s still lying.

She does not have nearly as much to offer as KK did here.

It won’t be hard to convince the jury that KK is telling the truth, for two reasons:

She threw herself under the bus, admitting to crimes that law enforcement would have never discovered.

Most importantly, her account is corroborated by physical evidence.

They found blood where she said it would be.

They found melted plastic and an accelerant at the location of that fire.

They found stains on the hay at that body storage site.

Juries believe liars when the evidence supports their account. This literally happens all the time.

 

[k-mac]

shame kk didn't have to give up KBs body or remains for that kinda leniency .
let her family have her back. it was the LEAST she could do.

she doesn't know where she is.........
(maybe the river??? maybe the dump???clear as mud. helpful as on a bull.)

and pigs might fly too.

 

[Seattle1]

If you read that second arrest warrant and believe she is being truthful, then I think you’re in the minority. She’s still lying.

She does not have nearly as much to offer as KK did here.

It won’t be hard to convince the jury that KK is telling the truth, for two reasons:

She threw herself under the bus, admitting to crimes that law enforcement would have never discovered.

Most importantly, her account is corroborated by physical evidence.

They found blood where she said it would be.

They found melted plastic and an accelerant at the location of that fire.

They found stains on the hay at that body storage site.

Juries believe liars when the evidence supports their account. This literally happens all the time.

Agree.

When PF was being investigated, his crumbs led to KK.

KK lied several times while the crumbs were inching their way to her.

However, once she made the decision to come clean, she told the truth and never looked back.

In fact, she told CBI/LE more than they expected, and also put some of their own puzzle pieces in the right place for them.

MOO

ETA: And I still loathe her.

 

[ilovechili]

BBM. You raise excellent points and have from the beginning. The defense will attack KK's credibility every chance it gets. Compare this case with another case on WS that also involves a missing mother who has not been recovered, Jennifer Dulos. It is a stark contrast to this one in the way the respective DA's have handled charges and information given to the media. The husband and his helper/lover have only been charged with lessor crimes and are out on bail despite the fact that security video caught them disposing of items with JD's DNA and other forensic evidence that isn't present in this case because KK destroyed evidence. My hope remains that the feds will charge KK for her federal crimes including lying to federal agents, the fraudulent text messages and whatever else they can throw at her.

JMO

ITA. It is a stark contrast the way it is being handled in the Dulos case. I enjoy your points as well, they are always good ones and interesting.

I as well hope for a twist at the end of this case. I hope I am not dreaming. But we can hope.

BOTH of them off of the streets--PF and KK.

32 days and counting down.

Jmo.

 

[susiQ]

And I sure the h**k would not want to hang my case on her.

SFF

This is the thing. They are not hanging their case on her. PF gave them plenty. His stupidity However, they needed what she knew for a quick arrest and solid case. Do I hate what she did? Yes. Do I hate the sweetie deal? Oh yes! (although I agree a deal needed to be made) Do I want her around my family? Absolutely not. But I wanted him behind bars MORE. I believe he would go on to murder again. As reprehensible as KK is to me for what she did and didn't do, I do not believe she will become involved in something like this ever again. I suspect she's in some heavy duty counselling. And, I don't believe all her crocodile tears will soften up a jury after they hear all she admits to. Nor a judge, I hope, and that he gives her the full 18 months, however inadequate I feel that is.

While KK will be a spectacle of a witness, and we may learn more, it was absolutely necessary to get that monster in jail behind bars ASAP. I remember sitting here watching this case unfold and being so utterly fearful that if they didn't get that baby away from him, she would be the next victim taking out his anger and frustration on her or killing himself and her. We had no way of gauging his mental state as the law was closing in on him. Thankfully, he had enough hubris to think he could get away with what he'd done and they nailed him before he absconded with her into hiding. OR, if they couldn't make and arrest because they didn't have quite enough and that sweet little thing began to show some toddler attitude and he would have "taught her a lesson" by back handing her into a wall. Any man who could inflict what he did on Kelsey is capable of abusing his child. It's interesting that he and his mother accused KB of child abuse. Narcissists like to project their own nasty behaviours onto their victims.

I understand the frustration with KK, but I have to trust DA May did what he felt he had to to get that monster where he belonged. JMHO

 

[ilovechili]

SFF

This is the thing. They are not hanging their case on her. PF gave them plenty. His stupidity However, they needed what she knew for a quick arrest and solid case. Do I hate what she did? Yes. Do I hate the sweetie deal? Oh yes! (although I agree a deal needed to be made) Do I want her around my family? Absolutely not. But I wanted him behind bars MORE. I believe he would go on to murder again. As reprehensible as KK is to me for what she did and didn't do, I do not believe she will become involved in something like this ever again. I suspect she's in some heavy duty counselling. And, I don't believe all her crocodile tears will soften up a jury after they hear all she admits to. Nor a judge, I hope, and that he gives her the full 18 months, however inadequate I feel that is.

While KK will be a spectacle of a witness, and we may learn more, it was absolutely necessary to get that monster in jail behind bars ASAP. I remember sitting here watching this case unfold and being so utterly fearful that if they didn't get that baby away from him, she would be the next victim taking out his anger and frustration on her or killing himself and her. We had no way of gauging his mental state as the law was closing in on him. Thankfully, he had enough hubris to think he could get away with what he'd done and they nailed him before he absconded with her into hiding. OR, if they couldn't make and arrest because they didn't have quite enough and that sweet little thing began to show some toddler attitude and he would have "taught her a lesson" by back handing her into a wall. Any man who could inflict what he did on Kelsey is capable of abusing his child. It's interesting that he and his mother accused KB of child abuse. Narcissists like to project their own nasty behaviours onto their victims.

I understand the frustration with KK, but I have to trust DA May did what he felt he had to to get that monster where he belonged. JMHO

Well, I do not believe KK learned a lesson or will never do something again, I see her as a certain type; how many times has her ex taken her back or helped her? She had several/many times to learn a lesson over almost day long trips to Colorado to kill and plot, etc. I do not think I know a person who would lie after all of that to LE and not be shaking in their cowgirl boots because it is LE. She was allegedly advised to go talk to her friend's attorneys.

This was a horse dung deal. Some go on about how they needed her so it is all cool or we have to accept it but then they go on about how much evidence the prosecution has.

Phone records, etc. and search warrants do not all need the Honey to obtain.

They did not even get the location of poor dead Kelsey Berreth out of the deal. Wow.

Not directed at you. I respect your opinion and no one will change mine. Evidence may do so. My mind is still partly open--this has not been to trial. I never close my mind the entire way because twists and surprises can come.

KK:

Does not have to report to court in person, just check in every so often.

Has no limits on travel or anything.

Insisted with her attorney that cameras cannot be pointed at her, etc.

By her own admission ran around with a metal rod, a baseball bat, coffee and played a fake meeting with KB and tried to set up a PLAY date and now she runs free.

I could go on.

Again, just saying and no offense. As I said, I respect other's opinions and I sure don't normally respond to all I disagree with, in fact I rarely post this much these days and certainly not here.

Jmvho.

 

[ilovechili]

I don’t think anyone would argue with you there.

There’s no question that what she did was wrong on every level. Most of us would call her “evil.”

Had she not cooperated, there’s a very real chance that no one would have ever paid for this.

Emotionally, we want it all here. We want both of them to get what they deserve.

Logically though, we have to accept that only one of them stands a chance of paying the full price.

Let’s just hope that happens.

How about more than a slap on the hand price? No time or time measured commonly in months or days? How about he gets more, they do some investigating of records and get warrants and then go back to her? So LE just folds to an accomplice and they give the terms to LE? How about she gets a decade or two on a deal? People would not complain so much about that. Hey I did not start nor sign any petition, but other people did. There is a big world out there whose opinions do not match.

This woman did not come clean by choice nor necessarily learn anything. She was caught in lies to LE no less.

Unless she wore a diaper, there should be some gas station video as they of course would want to confirm the story of their key witness.

And Walmart of course.

Jmo.

 

[10ofRods]

New to this case and can certainly understand everyone's frustration here on this thread. What a terrible crime. The meticulous work done on the time lines is so impressive. @Gardener1850 and @Tippy Lynn - what a labor of love for Kelsey.

Most of us follow so many cases closely, but this one is one of the worst. It feels like it could happen to anyone, that Kelsey had no way of seeing it coming and I struggle to even begin to fathom PF's psychology (and I have done research in jails, prisons and, especially, mental hospitals for the criminally insane). I can't even venture a guess as to the causes of his psychopathology.

How does a man even come up with such a plan? Cruel and brutal as he is, he is also one of the stupidest criminals I've ever read about. Stupid and violent and completely without remorse or even (to me) any kind of motive that makes sense. I'd hate to be one of his jailers and I bet he doesn't get along well with others in jail (and will not fare well in prison, either). So many antisocial personality types are much smarter. I keep thinking that he rode a long way on his "looks" and that is going to be the opposite of what he needs in prison.

"Plan" should have been in quotes.

I'm sure you all have discussed all of this to death in the many threads. I think KK is insane as well and was either the primary "planner" or at least, very much an instigator.

I'm about to give up on trying to understand humans. Surely these people are not the same species as the rest of us.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I’ve never heard of a trial delayed because it might stretch into the holidays.

When a holiday occurs during a lengthy trial, the jury gets an extended break.

Kelsey was brutally murdered, and I’d be willing to bet that that her family wants justice sooner, rather than later.

Thanksgiving Turkey be damned. Please pass the gravy.

Yaaaas, ITA! Please pass the oyster stuffing while we're at it

 

[PommyMommy]

New to this case and can certainly understand everyone's frustration here on this thread. What a terrible crime. The meticulous work done on the time lines is so impressive. @Gardener1850 and @Tippy Lynn - what a labor of love for Kelsey.

Most of us follow so many cases closely, but this one is one of the worst. It feels like it could happen to anyone, that Kelsey had no way of seeing it coming and I struggle to even begin to fathom PF's psychology (and I have done research in jails, prisons and, especially, mental hospitals for the criminally insane). I can't even venture a guess as to the causes of his psychopathology.

How does a man even come up with such a plan? Cruel and brutal as he is, he is also one of the stupidest criminals I've ever read about. Stupid and violent and completely without remorse or even (to me) any kind of motive that makes sense. I'd hate to be one of his jailers and I bet he doesn't get along well with others in jail (and will not fare well in prison, either). So many antisocial personality types are much smarter. I keep thinking that he rode a long way on his "looks" and that is going to be the opposite of what he needs in prison.

"Plan" should have been in quotes.

I'm sure you all have discussed all of this to death in the many threads. I think KK is insane as well and was either the primary "planner" or at least, very much an instigator.

I'm about to give up on trying to understand humans. Surely these people are not the same species as the rest of us.

Great post and really glad to see you here, 10ofRods.

I think we had a list going at one time of the "Stupidest" and suffice it to say, PF was right up there with Chris Watts. Maybe even stupider - someone else may remember. MOO

 

[ilovechili]

I’m just questioning which way to go. On one hand “we” state we couldn’t convict him without her. On the other “we” state we got him with the phone tracking and video in and out of condo. Anyone want to debate that?

Exactly. You didn't miss that either huh?

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

Oh me too. Since the day of that preliminary hearing I’ve been convinced that this is a slam dunk of a no body murder case.

Those types of cases are notoriously difficult, but this case has far more evidence than most.

He’s going down.

That is what many hope and pray for, myself included.

So I hope no one misses that fact again.

Some of us have even more faith in LE both nationally and locally--and hope or dream they will have the last laugh and twist and they both "go down".

Jmo.

 

[Dave F.]

New to this case and can certainly understand everyone's frustration here on this thread. What a terrible crime. The meticulous work done on the time lines is so impressive. @Gardener1850 and @Tippy Lynn - what a labor of love for Kelsey.

Most of us follow so many cases closely, but this one is one of the worst. It feels like it could happen to anyone, that Kelsey had no way of seeing it coming and I struggle to even begin to fathom PF's psychology (and I have done research in jails, prisons and, especially, mental hospitals for the criminally insane). I can't even venture a guess as to the causes of his psychopathology.

How does a man even come up with such a plan? Cruel and brutal as he is, he is also one of the stupidest criminals I've ever read about. Stupid and violent and completely without remorse or even (to me) any kind of motive that makes sense. I'd hate to be one of his jailers and I bet he doesn't get along well with others in jail (and will not fare well in prison, either). So many antisocial personality types are much smarter. I keep thinking that he rode a long way on his "looks" and that is going to be the opposite of what he needs in prison.

"Plan" should have been in quotes.

I'm sure you all have discussed all of this to death in the many threads. I think KK is insane as well and was either the primary "planner" or at least, very much an instigator.

I'm about to give up on trying to understand humans. Surely these people are not the same species as the rest of us.

PF actually spent approximately a month in the general population of the Teller County Detention Facility, which is also a major ICE holding center, before being placed in restricted or protective conditions. My opinion is that he had no conflicts at all with other inmates, or with the staff.
Nothing in this case has turned out to be as it first appears. IMO
Frazee clad in bulletproof vest at Thursday's hearing

 

[ilovechili]

They didn’t have a murder without her. So yes!

Without her, all that evidence would not have been found, and law enforcement would have been unable to prove a crime was committed.

They wouldn't? I would have thought first they would have caught PF in his lies and on video to KB's etc., and then got further video, etc. from the furniture store, warrants to search her or his home, found blood on the toilet and more, so much more, or for his phone and of course KB's... Etc., Etc.

In the spirit of debate of course.

Jmo.

ETA: And then KK's number, checking into that and her, and her lies and have taken a strong stance on a deal for maybe say 20 years...

 

[ilovechili]

Just about everything some state comes straight from KK and as I understand it, even LE does not necessarily believe her story, stretch your horizons and one will find those opinions and the very real and logical reasons why.

So my hope remains they both "go down".

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

True, he has not been convicted yet, but I'm pretty confident he will be with KK's testimony. But, that she devil only spilled the beans when she KNEW the gig was up. My issue is not that she got a deal, it's the deal she got. Even if she gets 18 months, it is not nearly enough for what she did regardless of helping nail that worthless piece of skin. That's my humble opinion. However, I understand I have no choice but to accept the DA's decision. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I was only trying to convey WHY it appears we hate KK more than PF. We don't. We despise them equally
ed: wording

You have that exactly right.

I despise them. A young mother is dead because of the actions or lack of action of both.

I so agree.

Jmo.

 

[ilovechili]

Of course if they are logical, they will know that the gun is wholly irrelevant.

Maybe a bullet was missing, and maybe it wasn’t. Maybe KK was responsible for that, and maybe she wasn’t. We’ll likely never know. Either way, Kelsey had almost certainly been murdered by that point.

Every case has loose ends, and this is likely to be one of several.

It’s curious, but it’s one big nothingburger IMO.

One of several loose ends and no slam dunk then.

I cannot keep up. Nothing like having an open mind and changing it often. I have been guilty of the same

Jmo.