CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[gitana1]

New blog entry (about the cameras)...off to read it...

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1220

Six cameras around the house. Six.

But he broke in undetected and killed her.

 

[Cazzie]

To get inside, they'd have to come from outside, so I would assume they will now capture somebody, if there is in fact a stalker. Like I said, they captured the deer the night she died, so they should have caught the killer, too.

Also, dad spent hours in the attic. If someone was staked out up there, he probably would have seen evidence of that, so we can probably rule that out.

BTW, I'm wondering if the date is a typo, as today is the 15th.

BBM.

No, she started posting "ahead" a while back, i.e., not always on the exact day. It caused some confusion for me, as I was trying to "sync up" with each day.

Day 47 was titled as Sep. 17.

 

[Lera213]

My question would be where was the DVD in the house with the camera views? Was in in the living room and office away from the parents bedroom...if the stalker came inside the home when they were not at home, could he have seen the set up, knew where the camera's are, even edit him coming into the home? Deleting images/video?

 

[Herding Cats]

OK, so I got fixated on Ami and Nor earlier, and did a bit of research...

http://www.clinchem.org/content/19/4/361.full.pdf
The significant part would be:
"Amitriptyline and Nortriptyline
Adults receiving 25 to 75 mg of nortriptyline orally three times a day for four to seven days had drug concentrations of 30 to 160 gig/liter of plasma (28). In autopsy cases involving these drugs the concentrations in the blood were between 0 and 11 mg of
amitriptyline, and between 8 and 26 mg of nortriptyline per liter. The liver contained more than 50 mg of drug per kilogram (29)"

I'm fairly sure this is a comparison between the two drugs, and not the drug Ami and it's metabolite Nor.

But here, I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707629
"Following amitriptyline or imipramine overdose by 30 patients, total plasma concentrations ranged from 29 to 1732 ng/ml but did not correlate well with physical findings or most electrocardiographic changes. Only those patients with a QRS interval greater than 0.1 second had significantly elevated plasma levels. However, a plasma level ratio of the parent drug (amitriptyline, imipramine) to its respective N-desmethyl metabolite (nortriptyline, desmethylimipramine) greater than or equal to 2.0 was associated with an acute overdose. This ratio was more useful than total plasma levels in differentiating an overdose from a therapeutic dose with associated toxicity and an elevated steady-state plasma level."

So, since I never took statistics, does that mean that the ratio of ami (drug) : nor (metabolite) means it needs to be 2:0 or greater, or ??? I hope someone can figure this out...it may be important in establishing if she was taking ami unknown to Toni her Mom.

And here, on page 2 in the chart, it shows that the levels of Ami:nortrip would be something along the lines of 2:1. (the far right, second down is the iliac sample, which is the generally used 'peripheral' blood used in testing during autopsy).

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/5/401.full.pdf

This indicates "acute poisoning", meaning that the fatal dose was taken at one time, rather than cumulatively over time.

Which means, to me at least, Morgan died of ami toxication, in an acute sense.

Which then means, again to repeat myself from earlier posts, this was not a voluntary action. The pill number would be too freakin' high. Compounded from pills and put into water would have left local anesthetic issues, but that's if you could get past the taste (which is incredibly horrible...), and if you could suppress the vomiting reflex (which would have kicked in with the taste of the meds).

IMVHO, to get those kinds of numbers (which FAR exceed what I've seen in research), and to be consistent with the evidence of no pills or fragments in her stomach, and that the Nortrip present is the metabolite and not an additional rx (as I proposed as a possibility earlier...) which would indicate the liver did it's job...taking into account that this amount of medication at bioavailability levels of 2900 would be impossible to swallow or to keep down once swallowed, ...

IMVHO...Morgan was injected.


Best-
Herding Cats

 

[MayraMM]

IMVHO...Morgan was injected.


Best-
Herding Cats

Like I said earlier, a way to get a large amount into her system without leaving pill fragments, plus taking into account the pulmonary edema, could be by administering a large-volume IV. So, sedate with Flexeril, give the IV wide open with the ami, remove the IV. That would bypass the gag reflex and she would die before the Flexeril was completely digested.

The scenario sounds far-fetched; not probable, but possible. The real problem is in getting into the place, despite 6 cameras covering the entire perimeter and having the knowledge to start an IV.

The skill set seems very refined; not what I would expect from kids/young adults who sit around smoking weed all day.

 

[Cazzie]

My question would be where was the DVD in the house with the camera views? Was in in the living room and office away from the parents bedroom...if the stalker came inside the home when they were not at home, could he have seen the set up, knew where the camera's are, even edit him coming into the home? Deleting images/video?

And/or maybe blocked/repositioned a view for future...or cut a wire...but I'm presuming that they were vigilantly checking the recorded videos and would have noticed something awry (except for the editting/deleting part).

My mind is going crazy with a sophisticated someone looping a benign feed while doing whatever. I think too much.

I want Mom to advance to the entire day/nite of Dec. 1-2, with regards to the video surveillance especially (and all of other pertinent details). Sigh.

Back at the start of this (me beginning to read the blog and catching up to the latest postings there), I was sure that more happened in favor of the investigation and justice/truth for Morgan, and that the family couldn't release certain details due to an ongoing LE investigation. Not the case (yet).

 

[Morgan's Father]

As noted on the photos the first officer leaves at 00:43, the other two officers leave at 00:44, then the alledged stalker emerges and is captured in a photo at 00:46

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=845#comments

In this entry, it is stated that one of the neighbors stormed up the driveway and spoke to one of the officers that night demanding to know what was going on. I was wondering when the neighbor left before the police officers and if the neighbor was captured on the camera since 12 photos were taken? I just found it interesting that a neighbor had been present.

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=465

The pictures or the officers and the stalker were all taken during the night. Next day when another officer comes by to see it all in the daylight the neighbor storms over demanding answers, and the first eight pictures of the night were of me setting up the camera. it was a good camera but the lead time from detection to the first picture is five seconds. The time it takes the officers to walk that far down the drive, so imagine if they were running, they'd be gone, and we had a lot of pictures like that.

 

[concernedmother]

I dont know what to think if they dont catch something with all the equipment they now have. Yet it is hinky with the report of drugs in her system. Would reopening the case get someone to change it to murder? But you still have no evidence of a suspect if they dont have more to go on than what has been presented so far.

 

[Herding Cats]

Like I said earlier, a way to get a large amount into her system without leaving pill fragments, plus taking into account the pulmonary edema, could be by administering a large-volume IV. So, sedate with Flexeril, give the IV wide open with the ami, remove the IV. That would bypass the gag reflex and she would die before the Flexeril was completely digested.

The scenario sounds far-fetched; not probable, but possible. The real problem is in getting into the place, despite 6 cameras covering the entire perimeter and having the knowledge to start an IV.

The skill set seems very refined; not what I would expect from kids/young adults who sit around smoking weed all day.

I don't believe it was IV. Sure, it's possible. Frankly, I think it would have been a large syringe intramuscularly. Far easier to do, easier to obtain the stuff for...and takes very little skill to just shoot an IM.

And yes, pot smokin' teens can do it...they can shoot heroin, too, without using an IV.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Cazzie]

Welcome to WS, Morgan's Father! I hope you see how much we all care.

 

[MayraMM]

I don't believe it was IV. Sure, it's possible. Frankly, I think it would have been a large syringe intramuscularly. Far easier to do, easier to obtain the stuff for...and takes very little skill to just shoot an IM.

And yes, pot smokin' teens can do it...they can shoot heroin, too, without using an IV.

Best-
Herding Cats

I'm thinking of the pulmonary edema, not just the medications. An IV opened wide would have caused the PE, as well as the OD. I think an IM injection of that amount would have presented with subcutaneous edema or bruising, swelling, something to show that.

 

[concernedmother]

Hi Morgans father. Welcome to web sleuths. This case is baffling everyone as it surely did your family. So sorry about your beautiful and talented daughter. We want answers too.

 

[Herding Cats]

The pictures or the officers and the stalker were all taken during the night. Next day when another officer comes by to see it all in the daylight the neighbor storms over demanding answers, and the first eight pictures of the night were of me setting up the camera. it was a good camera but the lead time from detection to the first picture is five seconds. The time it takes the officers to walk that far down the drive, so imagine if they were running, they'd be gone, and we had a lot of pictures like that.

Welcome, <modsnip>. We appreciate your presence here so much. Please accept our condolences on the loss of your amazing daughter. God bless and keep you and your family.


I, in particular, believe that Morgan was murdered. while that view is not shared by all who post, I am positive that we all share in your grief over the loss of Morgan.

If you need any help navigating the site, pm any one of us; we would be more than happy to help. Same thing with understanding rules and regularions...pm a moderator, and they'll be more than willing to guide you through.

God bless you, and I know Morgan is soooooo proud of you and Toni, for continuing to be strong enough to fight for her.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[concernedmother]

Cat would there be an injection mark when they did the external autopsy?

 

[twinkiesmom]

Morgan was not verbally threatened. In fact, she was never approached by her stalker at all verbally and no thrats were ever issues to her at all as far as we can tell.

But, she was (supposedly) assaulted with drugs. In her home. In her bed. While everyone slept around her. With a drug she coincidentally was prescribed at one time. Not rat poison, just a drug.

It just doesn't fit the M.O..

Per Morganingram.com, the first 7 weeks are pretty constant...so around Day 56 is when this gets escalated to a felony case...We will have to see what develops at that point.

If this is a stalker homicide, I find it intriguing that it may have taken some degree of sophistication to come up with the ami + flexoril combination. These compounds have similar chemical structures (both tricyclics) and one of the liver enzyme that breaks down ami also contributes to breaking down the flexoril. Was this genius levels of evil, or was google simply his/her friend?

http://www.drugs.com/monograph/flexeril.html
"Warnings
Similarity to Tricyclic Antidepressants
Shares the toxic potentials of tricyclic antidepressants; observe the usual precautions associated with tricyclic antidepressant therapy."

http://www.drugs.com/pro/flexeril.html
"Warnings
Cyclobenzaprine is closely related to the tricyclic antidepressants, e.g., amitriptyline and imipramine. In short term studies for indications other than muscle spasm associated with acute musculoskeletal conditions, and usually at doses somewhat greater than those recommended for skeletal muscle spasm, some of the more serious central nervous system reactions noted with the tricyclic antidepressants have occurred (see WARNINGS, below, and ADVERSE REACTIONS).

Tricyclic antidepressants have been reported to produce arrhythmias, sinus tachycardia, prolongation of the conduction time leading to myocardial infarction and stroke."

Alternatively, if homicide wasn't the intention, it could have been pure stupidity that resulted in either this combination that was chosen or the large dose of ami given to this girl.

I also wonder what other drugs might have been in her system since they didn't test for that many things...in my mind, a compromised liver could explain why the ami concentrations were so high. Or alternatively, M could have had a genetic predisposition to be a CYP2D6 poor metabolizer (see http://www.drugs.com/pro/amitriptyline.html), making her more sensitive to either of these drugs or potentially the combination.

FYI...I'm not putting myself up as an expert...feel free to check my links. Also see Figure 3 in the Clinical Chemistry article I cited earlier....The nortrip clearly has it's own line below the ami line in the case of ami (solo) overdose.

 

[MayraMM]

Cat would there be an injection mark when they did the external autopsy?

I'm not Cat, obviously, but I'd like to answer anyway. In a standard autopsy, especially an unwitnessed death of a young person, the external exam is vital. A good pathologist will even use magnifying glasses to look for puncture wounds. That's why paramedics and doctors leave IV lines and other invasive procedure equipment in, so the pathologist will know what caused that particular puncture hole, for instance. A needle mark should have been caught, especially since we're talking about a large needle to administer all that medication. But, TI is claiming incompetence by the original ME and unless there were a lot of pictures taken, it's too late to check for needle marks by the second opinion doc.

 

[Morgan's Father]

OK, so I got fixated on Ami and Nor earlier, and did a bit of research...

http://www.clinchem.org/content/19/4/361.full.pdf
The significant part would be:
"Amitriptyline and Nortriptyline
Adults receiving 25 to 75 mg of nortriptyline orally three times a day for four to seven days had drug concentrations of 30 to 160 gig/liter of plasma (28). In autopsy cases involving these drugs the concentrations in the blood were between 0 and 11 mg of
amitriptyline, and between 8 and 26 mg of nortriptyline per liter. The liver contained more than 50 mg of drug per kilogram (29)"

I'm fairly sure this is a comparison between the two drugs, and not the drug Ami and it's metabolite Nor.

But here, I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/707629
"Following amitriptyline or imipramine overdose by 30 patients, total plasma concentrations ranged from 29 to 1732 ng/ml but did not correlate well with physical findings or most electrocardiographic changes. Only those patients with a QRS interval greater than 0.1 second had significantly elevated plasma levels. However, a plasma level ratio of the parent drug (amitriptyline, imipramine) to its respective N-desmethyl metabolite (nortriptyline, desmethylimipramine) greater than or equal to 2.0 was associated with an acute overdose. This ratio was more useful than total plasma levels in differentiating an overdose from a therapeutic dose with associated toxicity and an elevated steady-state plasma level."

So, since I never took statistics, does that mean that the ratio of ami (drug) : nor (metabolite) means it needs to be 2:0 or greater, or ??? I hope someone can figure this out...it may be important in establishing if she was taking ami unknown to Toni her Mom.

And here, on page 2 in the chart, it shows that the levels of Ami:nortrip would be something along the lines of 2:1. (the far right, second down is the iliac sample, which is the generally used 'peripheral' blood used in testing during autopsy).

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/5/401.full.pdf

This indicates "acute poisoning", meaning that the fatal dose was taken at one time, rather than cumulatively over time.

Which means, to me at least, Morgan died of ami toxication, in an acute sense.

Which then means, again to repeat myself from earlier posts, this was not a voluntary action. The pill number would be too freakin' high. Compounded from pills and put into water would have left local anesthetic issues, but that's if you could get past the taste (which is incredibly horrible...), and if you could suppress the vomiting reflex (which would have kicked in with the taste of the meds).

IMVHO, to get those kinds of numbers (which FAR exceed what I've seen in research), and to be consistent with the evidence of no pills or fragments in her stomach, and that the Nortrip present is the metabolite and not an additional rx (as I proposed as a possibility earlier...) which would indicate the liver did it's job...taking into account that this amount of medication at bioavailability levels of 2900 would be impossible to swallow or to keep down once swallowed, ...

IMVHO...Morgan was injected.


Best-
Herding Cats

Hi just what we've been told so far, Amitrityline metabolizes into nortriptyline, If you are taking the drug regularly then expect to see the levels of the two close to even. If it is a large one time then the nortriptyline will be much less than the level of the Amitriptyline as the body is shutting down and ceasing to metabolize. In the first tox reports the forensic pathologist blamed postmortem redistribution for the high numbers and prepared a page explaining that it was an insignificant amount for Toni and I to take to Doctors we visited for their opinion. Before long we had complete agreement from experts asked to weigh in that this was a massive dose. AIT labs did the original Tox and told Toni it was not the largest but certainly one of the largest numbers they had ever seen. This was from blood. the second test of her gastric contents also detected Amitriptyline but also flexeril and two other date rape compounds that were detected but a final number was not registered as the sample was exhausted. The test was done without our knowledge so its disheartening that now it has been used up with only half of the answers. A Forensic Toxicologist is being lined up to interpret what we have so far and he will be the best opinion.

 

[Confusion]

The skill set seems very refined; not what I would expect from kids/young adults who sit around smoking weed all day.

Some drug addicts can actually function rather well. Have you seen what some of those guys can do on skateboards? I also knew cheerleaders when I was in highschool who used a lot of drugs but still did some pretty impressive cheers. Or maybe I'm just easily impressed, I never even learned how to do a cartwheel. :blushing:

 

[Herding Cats]

Cat would there be an injection mark when they did the external autopsy?

Depends on how closely they looked. There are a lot of places that someone can put an injection and it not be glaringly InYourFace kind of visible marks.

Mayra brings up the concept of a wide open IV, which (in her thought) would also account for the pulmonary edema. My primary issue with that would be if they used a gauge of needle large enough to bolus a half or full liter infused with ami, there would likely be a pretty clear IV site, especially if using an 18 or 16 gauge needle.

I am more inclined to think that (if I'm even right in the first place) a needle filled with liquid ami, or worse, compounded ami from pills (which would be able to be got on the street), in a high enough concentration that it wouldn't need a huge needle, and wouldn't leave a clear enough marking, especially if the needle was jammed in deeply enough to obscure any subcutaneous bolus.

As an RN, I am very careful when giving shots, as they can hurt, and if done deeply, can affect the bone.

Another thought I had was that if Morgan fought hard enough to rip a few nails off, and the coroner didn't notice *that*, then he likely wouldn't have noticed a smaller gauge needle mark, or, shoot, even an expertly placed IV wouldn't leave a large mark.

And to be honest, I believe that the pulmonary edema might've been caused by a fatal arrythmia in the left side of her heart, which could have been easily caused by an overdose of ami. Cardiac arrythmias are noted sequelae of ami od, so I'm thinking that's what caused the edema.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[concernedmother]

One thing I've wondered and now is a good time to ask. Was her autopsy done by a coroner or was it done by a ME? Maybe Mr I would answer that? Because of her age and no serious medical condition that should be considered a suspicious death and not a job for a coroner.I know we have a coroner in our county but if its suspicious they call in a ME.