CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[MayraMM]

Interesting point about the 911 call.

About harassment, I'm not sure if their blog posts would suffice. Here's the definition of harassment under Colorado law:

http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/harassment.html



They had motion detectors and cameras. Unless the thing was 25 feet long, how could a stalker come anywhere near the window without being detected and captured on film?



My responses in purple above.



No one is sleuthing the parents, that I have seen. Sleuthing would be to investigate and track the parents - track where they are living, their criminal record, and/or other aspects of their background. Disagreeing with their position or questioning aspects of what they say, is not sleuthing, IMO.

It is true that some are skeptical about what is being conveyed in the blog by Ms. Ingram. However, that is not against the rules, from what I understand. Only the format of the blog cannot be criticized. It is also not bashing, from what I understand, to question the reality of what a deceased child said she experienced or the now recorded recollections of her desperately grieving mother. Disagreeing with the mother's position or finding it difficult to believe or questioning the logic of it, etc., is not bashing.

Sometimes I will see people try to use the rules of a board to shut down contrary positions. I hope that's not what is happening here. This is a tragic but fascinating case and I think opposing views are excellent as long as they are respectful and follow the rules, which admittedly, can be confusing at times. I certainly know I have made mistakes. I just don't see what you are seeing here.

But, I am not a mod so I can only give my opinion as to what I see happening.

Perception can vary. Which is the whole point for some of us on this thread.

I could kiss you! Thank you!

 

[gitana1]

BTW, I really do want to know what's up with the nail thing. I've asked a couple of times. Because the police say there was no sign of a struggle and it seems that some posters are inferring Morgan's nails were broken? Which would be significant because that would be signs of a struggle.

On another subject, something else that has begin to bother me is the description of the stalking itself. There is something missing from it which seems to be part and parcel of almost every stalking, and that is contact. Stalkers don't just harass anonymously. They send letters or make calls, or they send objects or leave things behind like specific objects, to send a specific message, and/or they threaten or assault, etc.

At this point, I do not believe Morgan's death constitutes an assault, so, the pattern seems off to me.

However, I found this and I think that if Morgan really was being stalked, it would be more likely to be a group type stalking, based on what I read here:

Group stalking, also called "gang stalking" uses the same methods to destroy the perception of a person's normal social and work environment in a hope to wear down this person, or drive him/her crazy. Gaslighting is a process that can take several months or even a year to condition a person's perception of his/her life environment. Once this condition is achieved by repetition of the same type of harassment, the person being gaslighted would lose the normal reaction to the trigger event even though such a "trigger event" might be completely unrelated to him/her. Now he/she is said to be programmed to react abnormally for a certain trigger that would discredit him/her as mentally unstable, or even crazy. Thus, many victims of this organized crime are blamed for mentally ill. The truth is they got disoriented by psychological abuse.

http://drahevil.blogspot.com/2007/07/group-stalking-tactic-gaslighting.html

More at link.

 

[Confusion]

Cornbread:

No, it is so highly unusual for a 2nd grader to read at a college level yet you quipped "absolutely possible". :banghead:

There are 2 children that have done that recently and they are geniuses that show up on Wiki searches and get a ton of worlwide notariety. Please check it out, both children are from India.

IMO, M's mom made a simple, honest laymans mistake. She probably read the results of the formal reading tests commonly done at the second grade level which lists some categories of results like this: "16-17 (Tier or Level 1)". Mom may have been looking at those results incorrectly as *ages* and made an honest mistake of thinking she had the next Albert Einstein. Don't we all think our children are super-bright and can optimistically misinterpret findings? It's no crime but I am more prone to facts and statistics.

I stand by my comment that if any parent thinks their 2nd grader is reading at college level, please review the testing score grid and if you're still certain, enroll them in MENSA. Any teachers want to chime in here?

I don't think it's totally impossible. My son was reading at a 6th grade level when he started kindergarten, could do addition and subtraction and knew the basics of multiplication and division (although he wasn't able to do it with more than 1 digit numbers). I'm not sure how advanced he would have been if I had ever pushed him to learn things, but I just helped him learn what he asked me to teach him. Years later he was tested, and I was told he had an IQ of 169. He took the test for MENSA and was invited to join, but he said he didn't want to pay a bunch of money just to talk to a group of "brainiacs." I'm sure there are others out there who are at least as intelligent.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I don't think it's totally impossible. My son was reading at a 6th grade level when he started kindergarten, could do addition and subtraction and knew the basics of multiplication and division (although he wasn't able to do it with more than 1 digit numbers). I'm not sure how advanced he would have been if I had ever pushed him to learn things, but I just helped him learn what he asked me to teach him. Years later he was tested, and I was told he had an IQ of 169. He took the test for MENSA and was invited to join, but he said he didn't want to pay a bunch of money just to talk to a group of "brainiacs." I'm sure there are others out there who are at least as intelligent.

So Confusion, we are down to an interpretation battle of Cornbread's "absolutely possible" (which could be interpreted to mean almost highly likely) VERSUS your "totally impossible" (which sounds a bit more like the exception to the rule)? There are EXCEPTIONS to the norm on IQ and comprehension but the average runs 100 +/- 2 standard dev's at 95%. Your son's IQ as stipulated by you runs into a single digit percentage of the entire population where population means everyone that has ever taken the IQ test and placed upon a bell-curve. In other words, he is an anomoly. And we're to think that M was smarter than your son when you look at the proportions of grade levels to scores? So I still stand that I find it nearly impossible for M's mom to be correct in saying she read at college level in the second grade. Statistics are my thing.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Just hit the quote bar on the post you want to quote. Then, once you have the quote/post box up, erase the part of the quote you DON'T want, making sure not to erase the brackets or anything in brackets (like the poster's name, the post id number and the words "quote"). Finally, hit post!



I think that is very possible.



You make a point but have you ever thought that they may not have the funds for a lawsuit? They could be collecting funds/saving their money.

Also, they may have spoken to a lawyer and said that what has been written so far is not enough.

The lawsuit would be a defamation suit. But you need to be able to prove economic damages. If these people can't show that they have suffered economically due to damage to their reputations resulting from the mom's blog, a lawyer may not want to take their case without tons of money.

Yes, I absolutely thought of money as being a possibility of why no lawsuit pursued, but imo for it to be the factor with holding them from pursuing the lawsuit I personally do not find very likely(and maybe thats just me..and thats ok as well)..but I can say that with this "case" having very much picked up steam I know that there are absolutely Attys who self servingly offer their services in such an event..hoping/praying for it to pay off in any type local notoriety(that a local atty once involved would really begin to play up the media)..along with hoping the the good ol' mom intending on publishing a book and making into documentary..praying that to come to fruition and the local atty play his and his clients cards right and he may just get a little bit of that local notierity along with possibly a few funds on the back end if successfully winning his client the defamation law suit..

Not only that did I ponder on but IMO I know many mothers would likely to be of a similar frame of mind as me in seeing the mother, themselves and/or their innocent childs name being flooded in cyber world of criminal activities thats damage to your childs rep that would likely be lifelong..in seeing that happening to my child whatever retainer fee necessary to retain the atty to strike back asap would be found and would be paid(besides we're not talking some $10,000 retainee not even in the ball park)..

The money issue imo is not a large enough obstacle that would prevent atty from being retained and shutting down the defamation asap..

I wont drone on but I do know that in terms of there being sufficient evidence according to the legal standards to establish there is in fact defamation against an individual...being able to prove evidence of the actual funds and amounts lost as a direct result of the defamation is not a necessity to establish defamation in the legal sense of the word..im certain itd be a great benefit to have that evidence but its not a necessity to establish that there is defamation of an individual ..the only necessity is defamation that is required in order to file a lawsuit..

Jmo.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

@Gitana- what are your thoughts on this?

In Colorado, state law makes criminal libel a felony carrying up to 18 months in prison and a fine up to $100,000 for the first offense. In general, web libel is posting false information about someone that defames them, commonly accusations of criminal acts marital infidelity, dishonesty or that you have a nasty disease..

http://www.dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/news_states_criminal_libel_web_internet.htm

 

[hambirg]

I agree. If this was a stalking, and if it went down as described, including the tripping of the lights, the window tapping, the figure at the door, and all we have yet to find out, then I just don't see a group of kids doing it. They may be hunters, but they're also kids. I would imaging a lot of giggling and mocking, scrambling sounds, twigs breaking, the whole deal.

If this did happen as reported, it had to have been someone sophisticated in technique, someone trained in stealth, and someone equipped with the materials needed to pull it off, and most importantly, someone with the free time to devote so much time and effort night after night.

Mom posted a picture of a deer outside M's window the night she died. The cameras caught the deer, but not the killer? I'm inclined to think a large number of the incidents were from deer and other animals.

Someone who possibly had experience in burglarizing houses and was caught with stolen goods? Someone like that could be quite stealthy I think.

A little OT but I think the argument that kids couldn't do this is kind of silly. A few years back there were quite a few burglaries in our neighborhood. When they caught them it was two 15yr old boys who lived in the neighborhood. They found a notebook where they kept notes of people's coming and goings, so they knew people's routines of when they would be home, etc. How they were caught is some neighbors who are gone for most of the day on Sundays with church activities, caught them. One day their daughter had a birthday party to go to and so the Dad stayed behind to take her. They ran some errands and he dropped her off at the party and then went back home. As he pulled up he thought he saw someone going into his backyard. When he went in the house he got his gun and started checking rooms. He caught one of the boys crawling through an open bathroom window. When LE searched the boys' home, from what I heard, the garage was full of stolen goods. Over 20 robberies they were able to pin on them. Who knows, there were probably more. So I think kids are capable of doing something like this. Well, I know they are.

 

[hambirg]

So Confusion, we are down to an interpretation battle of Cornbread's "absolutely possible" (which could be interpreted to mean almost highly likely) VERSUS your "totally impossible" (which sounds a bit more like the exception to the rule)? There are EXCEPTIONS to the norm on IQ and comprehension but the average runs 100 +/- 2 standard dev's at 95%. Your son's IQ as stipulated by you runs into a single digit percentage of the entire population where population means everyone that has ever taken the IQ test and placed upon a bell-curve. In other words, he is an anomoly. And we're to think that M was smarter than your son when you look at the proportions of grade levels to scores? So I still stand that I find it nearly impossible for M's mom to be correct in saying she read at college level in the second grade. Statistics are my thing.

Well, first off, we don't have any idea what kind of testing was done, how it was administered or scored. There are some pretty awful tests out there that claim to assess reading level. We do know Morgan was home schooled for some period of time. It could have easily been some "test" from some horrid curriculum, kwim? I do believe her Mom believes it to be true, but I take it with a grain of salt. My oldest tested off the chart on the Accelerated Reader test in 3rd grade. Some parents would take that the way Morgan's mom did, I suppose. Since I'm a teacher, I didn't read too much into because I know that test is mostly a multiple choice, vocabulary test. It didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. . .she is a bright kid, but I wasn't under any illusion that she could successfully read Shakespeare.

MOO

 

[Lera213]

When I die, I hope someone hacks my account (no doubt my daughter, since she does it already) and keeps posting for me!

I would hope if I die, that the mod's here remove any idiotic post of mine. :floorlaugh:

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Someone asked about the nails,i think it was something to with her nails being broken,but from my understanding Morgans nails were ok when she passed away but were broken after being at coroners?.To be honest i havent a clue why the nails are so important,maybe it just to show Morgan was mishandled from coroner?,sorry i get mixed up with coroner and all the others involved..

As for the stables,did the Ingrams not have a horse stabled there?,if thats the case and if any drugs did come from the stables then its entirely possible any member of the Ingrams obtained it,or anyone accomplished at thieving..

Id also like to hear more about Morgans brother,im asking because of something about the Ben Needham(wee english boy that disappeared in greece i think?) case that bothered me...

 

[21merc7]

Someone asked about the nails,i think it was something to with her nails being broken,but from my understanding Morgans nails were ok when she passed away but were broken after being at coroners?.To be honest i havent a clue why the nails are so important,maybe it just to show Morgan was mishandled from coroner?,sorry i get mixed up with coroner and all the others involved..

As for the stables,did the Ingrams not have a horse stabled there?,if thats the case and if any drugs did come from the stables then its entirely possible any member of the Ingrams obtained it,or anyone accomplished at thieving..

Id also like to hear more about Morgans brother,im asking because of something about the Ben Needham(wee english boy that disappeared in greece i think?) case that bothered me...

BBM

I'm not sure medications for the horses at a stable are locked up or well counted at the end of everyday. So if they came from there, could be no one would notice. We did hear that there were volunteers right? Well, any number of people could grab a syringe or bottle.

If these kids are taking muscle relaxers they could even be getting prescriptions from school. I googled the ami drug and flexeril together then added for horses. I got a lot of things about flexeril for a "charley horse". With the way most colleges seem to dispense medication these days, if you keep up with news on this sort of thing, it would not surprise me.

I was pondering the 911 3 way call idea. That seems odd to me. You certainly don't want 3 voices talking to the already overloaded 911 operator! However, I do think the idea was to keep M from completely freaking out and not being able to drive properly, therefore having an accident. I also wondered about any codling or control issues in M's life, and yes, I have to say that. It could lead a 20 year old to being tired of the constant control and wish for freedom, yet having no way of gaining it, more so if she felt she was being stalked and in life threatening fear mode all of the time.

 

[closerlook]

A few points...

It's absolutely within reach to say she tested at a college level. I tested at an 11th grade reading level in first grade. More common than you think.

Also, we are assuming that the last wildlife camera photo of the camera being knocked was due to the stalker trying to get it. How do we know that photo was not taken when the parents retrieved the camera from the roof? No concrete evidence that was the stalker's doing.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

A few points...
Also, we are assuming that the last wildlife camera photo of the camera being knocked was due to the stalker trying to get it. How do we know that photo was not taken when the parents retrieved the camera from the roof? No concrete evidence that was the stalker's doing.

closerlook,i think if you look at the times on the gamecam pics they were all within a couple of minutes of each other.The mother said she didnt think to get the gamecam down to look at pics until later on when her and her husband had gone to bed..

 

[puppyraiser]

Could the apparent stalker(s) have used a type of listening device that picks up phone signals and that's why they seemed to know when she was home or on her way home?
A cheap baby monitor can pick up cordless phone signals and there are devices out there, easily obtained, that can pick up cell phone conversations.

 

[keeponsearching]

Over the few days I see people wondering why the stalkers didn't do this, or didn't do that. Seems like somehow there is normal way to stalk. I do not see every stalking case being the same thing.

It looks like the stalker enjoyed what he did. Probably got a huge rush with the cops coming .

 

[keeponsearching]

Could the apparent stalker(s) have used a type of listening device that picks up phone signals and that's why they seemed to know when she was home or on her way home?
A cheap baby monitor can pick up cordless phone signals and there are devices out there, easily obtained, that can pick up cell phone conversations.

I bet, he could hear each time the mom got a text by M, when he would hit the window. Probably a way for him to find out which room M was in too.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I don't think it's totally impossible. My son was reading at a 6th grade level when he started kindergarten, could do addition and subtraction and knew the basics of multiplication and division (although he wasn't able to do it with more than 1 digit numbers). I'm not sure how advanced he would have been if I had ever pushed him to learn things, but I just helped him learn what he asked me to teach him. Years later he was tested, and I was told he had an IQ of 169. He took the test for MENSA and was invited to join, but he said he didn't want to pay a bunch of money just to talk to a group of "brainiacs." I'm sure there are others out there who are at least as intelligent.

I think there is a huge difference between reading at college level as a school aged child (as I did) and writing at a college level. Writing is a learned skill, whereas reading can be picked up very quickly based on innate ability once the initial rules have been taught. I picked up writing quickly too, but was not given the tools to do this at a sophisticated level until the first year in high school...but I grew up in 70s/80s when writing wasn't in vogue.

 

[Salem]

Hello Everybody - sorry for the interruption of the Morgan Ingram case, but it was necessary.


First, please realize this is a UNIQUE type of case at WS. There is little MSM or LE information to go on. This case is built entirely around a blog with information that cannot be confirmed at this point in time, and won't be confirmed unless/until LE reopens Morgan's case and takes a second look at it. That appears to be the PURPOSE of the blog. Please take the blog for what it is worth, believe it or not, but don't argue over it or bash it, please.

I have removed 95-99% of the posts talking about the "kids." Even if this information is coming from the blog - we must follow WS's rules about minors. At WS, minor's are not to be sleuthed, named, linked to, or pictured UNLESS the minor is the victim or LE has publicly announced the minor is the perp.

The ages of the kids being discussed on the blog are unknown at this point in time. In addition, accusations absolutely can't be brought here, not even initials unless LE weighs in on a possible POI. At this point, there is NO indication there are ANY suspects in the eyes of LE. If that changes - please link it up and alert a mod.

Because I have removed approximately 2 pages of posts, much information has been lost. I did not snip posts, because it is much easier to restore a post, then it is to restore a modsnip, if needed.

There is plenty to sleuth, discuss and speculate about, without questioning/bashing the parents, such as:

- How Morgan could have ingested the date rape drug? Had she been out that night? If so, doesn't it work faster than allowing her time to go home, go to bed and then later be found dead in the home?
- How a stalker (or perhaps a persistent peeping tom) broke into the house undetected and somehow slipped this drug into Morgan's system?
- Was there a stalker at all? If so, how did they obtain access to Morgan and somehow get her to ingest Flexiril.
- Was it suicide, an accidental overdose, or a homicide?
- What was Morgan's state of mind? Did the CO poisoning affect her ability to reason, etc.
- MSM articles that have been written and are linked right here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184237"]The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram: timeline, picture,media thread: - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

So there is still lots of work to be done, even though there are boundaries on the discussion.

What is OFF LIMITS:
- Mom's state of mind, reason for blogging, etc., etc.
- Possible suspects, POIs (without some kind of back up link).
- Any discussion involving minors.

The ground rules still apply. Please read them carefully and abide by them. If you have any questions, please pm a Mod and get clarification BEFORE posting.

Thanks for your patience!

Salem

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Could the apparent stalker(s) have used a type of listening device that picks up phone signals and that's why they seemed to know when she was home or on her way home?
A cheap baby monitor can pick up cordless phone signals and there are devices out there, easily obtained, that can pick up cell phone conversations.

I could believe that,standard radio scanners can pick up cordless homephones and listening devices including bugs can be picked up very cheaply prob about $50 now,it also wouldnt be hard to bug several rooms at once.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

There also used to be an programme type thing for $60 approx that allowed you to receive a copy of all txts messages sent to a specific phone.