***Day 3 -Committal Hearing*** 11th,12,13th March 2013

[FruitTingles]

John Taylor @_JohnTaylor_

Defence has begun cross examination of Prof Wells #badenclay

 

[captb]

Hi CaptB, and welcome.

Yes, the charging could have been from any power source, including his car - or even his computer. Or anyone's computer anywhere.... Food for thought there.


And while I don't want to presume to know as much as you would re the tech aspects etc, just a comment on the location tracking - the iPhone is very accurate in locating ITSELF (eg Google or Apple Maps or a zillion other apps) but location of the phone from elsewhere is much less accurate, including the cell tower links. In fact, when the iPhone is turned on, or an app started that needs location services, it seems that the iPhone starts by logging multiple towers in the vicinity from an almanac database, depending on where it is, much like any other GPS satnav device does for the satellites that should be "visible".

And of course, while the telcos can determine WHICH tower it connects to, they can't tell whereabouts in that area of coverage the phone actually is unless the phone is broadcasting its own location. Which is how those apps work such as the "Find My Friends" app or the "Find My iPhone" app. That is the phone broadcasting its own location, which is quite accurate. So if GBC's phone didn't have any of those apps running, then the telcos wouldn't be able to track him apart from which tower he connected to.

The way it works usually is that a phone is continually 'talking' to multiple cell towers - each cell tower has an idea of 'how close' the phone is to it by measuring response times from itself to each of the towers that its internal radio can 'see'. These can be logged by the Telco and have been used to locate people in emergencies... by triangulation.

When you actually make a call, there is a log event that logs that call to a particular cell tower, sure, but all of the other cell registration events will show up in all towers that the cellular device could contact. This has been used to triangulate in to devices by emergency services.

You can use this data to even identify when a device wasn't on - or in 'flight mode' - as it is no longer registering itself with the cellular network. Some crims turn their phone off to stop showing up at all. This is also a red flag of sorts...

All that said... Telco's don't make it easy to get this info. And we have quite a few different providers. Each has different log retention policies. I'm pretty sure that they actually charge law enforcement to access them!! (call it cost recovery).

I can't talk about the full tech reports on the phones, but suffice to say that the prosecution have a lot more info up their sleeve which has not been questioned by the defence - yet

So your assumption that one side or the other haven't got onto the matter of location may be a bit premature...

And again - welcome to a fellow tech-head! :rocker:

Thanks! Yes. They will have a heap more. And we've only heard bits about computer based evidence that was seized. And the nice thing is, that once they have taken good forensic images of the phones and computers they can reanalyse them if new info comes to light. For example the facetime call log.
They could identify easily if the iPhone 3gs was jailbroken (not hard to do at all and surely GBC knew people who could help) and if the Facetime hack for 3GS was installed.

 

[FruitTingles]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou

This expert also believes the wounds on Baden-Clay's face and neck were caused by fingernails - not a razor. #badenclay

 

[marlywings]

New witness (very impressive cv) says Allison's nails were long ie protruding above her fingers. Someone will quote this better than me hopefully.

VERY impressive cv indeed!!

Dr. David Lawrence Wells

http://www.zoominfo.com/#!search/profile/person?personId=464821959&targetid=profile

 

[BJsleuth]

I dont think the idea of the suicide theory came to Gerard until later. If he had wanted to go that way he would have said straight up that he was worried about her mental state. At no time did he say that, he said she seemed fine and there were no fights etc.

I think he was trying to make out she was abducted at first then lawyered up and shut up.

I don't know. It would be a bit too "neat" if he'd said that he was concerned about her state of mind at the outset. He's been so inconsistent with his stories that who knows?

 

[FruitTingles]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou


Prof Wells said he believes Allison's nails could have caused the injuries. #badenclay

 

[FruitTingles]

John Taylor @_JohnTaylor_

The witness is Professor David Wells from Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine #badenclay

 

[FruitTingles]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou


Prof Wells also said the marks had to be at least several hours old by the morning of April 20 when the photographs were taken. #badenclay

 

[Radster]

I dont think the idea of the suicide theory came to Gerard until later. If he had wanted to go that way he would have said straight up that he was worried about her mental state. At no time did he say that, he said she seemed fine and there were no fights etc.

I think he was trying to make out she was abducted at first then lawyered up and shut up.

Bayside, I have been in the same headspace as you this past hour or so, wondering, in the face of the forensic evidence now given, at what point GBC decided which explanation he was going to run with that would seem plausible if/when the body was found. These are the options I see:

1. He sincerely thought the body would never be found (and so placed it under the pylons and therefore visible to no-one bar an unlikely kayaker) and therefore deliberately kept things ambiguous ... ie. "Well, she WAS out walking late at night so someone MIGHT have grabbed her but then, look, she was also quite depressed and had been for sometime. It's just such a mystery and I'm as clueless as the rest of you." If this was the case, he would have been s**ting himself when the body was found.

2. He thought the body WOULD be found and that is why he dropped it from a bridge, albeit a small one but there aren't many taller ones in the area, so that the inference might be that she jumped. He might have hoped her (already dead) body would sustain injuries upon impact that would muddy the waters of the real cause of death (possibly strangulation).

3. He gave her an overdose of tablets (maybe crushed it into her dinner which he kindly left in the fridge for her for reheating after she got back from the hairdresser) and therefore knew that if the body was found, the autopsy would most likely conclude suicide. This explanation allows for the possibility that given an overdose (25 tablets or so) would take several hours to take effect, there could still have occurred a screaming/scratching match about anything from the cost of her haircut to the fact ABC would be confronted with the sight of TM the following day. He knew ABC would eventually zonk out and then he would dispose of the body, full of Zoloft.

Any other theories, peeps?

 

[missfisher]

It's been rumoured locally ever since the body was found that one or more hands were missing from the body (apologies to lunch eaters). If true, I wonder if it would still be possible to determine fingernail shape (sorry) and the damage they might cause?

 

[CaseClosed]

A quick comment before I have to get back to work. It is my impression that the defence is NOT really trying very hard to discredit the evidence and/or witnesses thus far. Anybody feels the same way? IMO.

 

[Thinking]

And you may also recall that it was discussed here at great length a few weeks ago :blushing:

All that stuff about first-pass principle through the liver, samples being taken from the liver, post-mortem redistribution, etc etc.. All sounds somewhat familiar?

Yes doc he seemed to be quoting you word for word - I'm impressed thanks again for all your expert knowledge, this is a good example of how spot on you are!

 

[Bayside]

Bayside, I have been in the same headspace as you this past hour or so, wondering, in the face of the forensic evidence now given, at what point GBC decided which explanation he was going to run with that would seem plausible if/when the body was found. These are the options I see:

1. He sincerely thought the body would never be found (and so placed it under the pylons and therefore visible to no-one bar an unlikely kayaker) and therefore deliberately kept things ambiguous ... ie. "Well, she WAS out walking late at night so someone MIGHT have grabbed her but then, look, she was also quite depressed and had been for sometime. It's just such a mystery and I'm as clueless as the rest of you." If this was the case, he would have been s**ting himself when the body was found.

2. He thought the body WOULD be found and that is why he dropped it from a bridge, albeit a small one but there aren't many taller ones in the area, so that the inference might be that she jumped. He might have hoped her (already dead) body would sustain injuries upon impact that would muddy the waters of the real cause of death (possibly strangulation).

3. He gave her an overdose of tablets (maybe crushed it into her dinner which he kindly left in the fridge for her for reheating after she got back from the hairdresser) and therefore knew that if the body was found, the autopsy would most likely conclude suicide. This explanation allows for the possibility that given an overdose (25 tablets or so) would take several hours to take effect, there could still have occurred a screaming/scratching match about anything from the cost of her haircut to the fact ABC would be confronted with the sight of TM the following day. He knew ABC would eventually zonk out and then he would dispose of the body, full of Zoloft.

Any other theories, peeps?

I think you have covered all the bases there haha and I agree with you on all of those.....well done.

 

[Judicious]

A quick comment before I have to get back to work. It is my impression that the defence is NOT really trying very hard to discredit the evidence and/or witnesses thus far. Anybody feels the same way? IMO.

I thought the same thing CC...think they know they can't win the case but their clients would want them to continue because he has convinced himself he is innocent......

All my opinion only

 

[marlywings]

12.05pm: Associate Professor David Wells, head of forensic medicine at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine, is next to take the stand.

Prof Wells said he believed the injuries to Baden-Clay's face and neck were caused by fingernails - not a razor.

"The injuries that I'm seeing in this image, a number of broadly parallel abrasions ... do not represent incised wounds ... (that) one would, associate with a sharp object," he said.

He said it was more consistent with fingernail scratches.

"An injury that has been produced by a relatively blunt or irregular edge making contact with the skin," he said.

Prof Wells said he looked at photographs of Allison's fingernails and is of the opinion they were long enough to cause injuries of a "gouging nature".

"(They) could certainly produce an injury similar to those displayed on the screen at the moment," he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...eam-in-the-night/story-e6freoof-1226596271477

 

[MaxwellSmart]

Bayside, I have been in the same headspace as you this past hour or so, wondering, in the face of the forensic evidence now given, at what point GBC decided which explanation he was going to run with that would seem plausible if/when the body was found. These are the options I see:
.......snipped....

3. He gave her an overdose of tablets (maybe crushed it into her dinner which he kindly left in the fridge for her for reheating after she got back from the hairdresser) and therefore knew that if the body was found, the autopsy would most likely conclude suicide. This explanation allows for the possibility that given an overdose (25 tablets or so) would take several hours to take effect, there could still have occurred a screaming/scratching match about anything from the cost of her haircut to the fact ABC would be confronted with the sight of TM the following day. He knew ABC would eventually zonk out and then he would dispose of the body, full of Zoloft.

Any other theories, peeps?

Don't have an opinion on the first 2 but crushed up Zoloft would be SOOOOOO bitter it would render meal inedible, plus I doubt that he would have cooked much and the mere presence of a prepared meal would have set off alarm bells for Allison. ?. MOO!

 

[Tishy]

A quick comment before I have to get back to work. It is my impression that the defence is NOT really trying very hard to discredit the evidence and/or witnesses thus far. Anybody feels the same way? IMO.

The phrases 'lost cause' and 'digging deeper hole' come to mind....

 

[BJsleuth]

I don't know. It would be a bit too "neat" if he'd said that he was concerned about her state of mind at the outset. He's been so inconsistent with his stories that who knows?

What i'm trying (poorly) to say here is that if he's trying to distance himself from any hand in her death and the Zoloft and all was part of it, that he's not going to offer the suggestion that she did it herself immediately because it will look too obvious. Does that make sense?

 

[missfisher]

Bayside, I have been in the same headspace as you this past hour or so, wondering, in the face of the forensic evidence now given, at what point GBC decided which explanation he was going to run with that would seem plausible if/when the body was found. These are the options I see:

1. He sincerely thought the body would never be found (and so placed it under the pylons and therefore visible to no-one bar an unlikely kayaker) and therefore deliberately kept things ambiguous ... ie. "Well, she WAS out walking late at night so someone MIGHT have grabbed her but then, look, she was also quite depressed and had been for sometime. It's just such a mystery and I'm as clueless as the rest of you." If this was the case, he would have been s**ting himself when the body was found.

2. He thought the body WOULD be found and that is why he dropped it from a bridge, albeit a small one but there aren't many taller ones in the area, so that the inference might be that she jumped. He might have hoped her (already dead) body would sustain injuries upon impact that would muddy the waters of the real cause of death (possibly strangulation).

3. He gave her an overdose of tablets (maybe crushed it into her dinner which he kindly left in the fridge for her for reheating after she got back from the hairdresser) and therefore knew that if the body was found, the autopsy would most likely conclude suicide. This explanation allows for the possibility that given an overdose (25 tablets or so) would take several hours to take effect, there could still have occurred a screaming/scratching match about anything from the cost of her haircut to the fact ABC would be confronted with the sight of TM the following day. He knew ABC would eventually zonk out and then he would dispose of the body, full of Zoloft.

Any other theories, peeps?

I imagine Zoloft would have a bitter or strong taste, like lots of other medications. Not sure what food could possibly mask 25 crushed tablets - either taste or appearance-wise.

 

[Zim]

Don't have an opinion on the first 2 but crushed up Zoloft would be SOOOOOO bitter it would render meal inedible, plus I doubt that he would have cooked much and the mere presence of a prepared meal would have set off alarm bells for Allison. ?. MOO!

Oh MS you are funny !:lol: