Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[ibyoungr]

Yes! I think even with all we have discovered about Casey, that people seemingly still want (or wanted) to think she acted at the tail end of a fight and the premeditation took minutes and not weeks or months; not that duration of premeditation would mitigate her sentence legally, but some people may have thought the fight pushed Casey into something she may not have otherwise done. However, in my mind, it is entirely possible she acted in VERY cold blood--ice cold. I have no problem going with the theory that she could have been muddling over Caylee's (or even Cindy and George's) demise for quite a long time (see searches for neckbreaking, dangerous household chemicals, chloroform, etc.).

After all, the chloroform didn't spontaneously appear in her trunk. Someone either bought the chloroform online or purchased the ingredients from the grocery store and then followed the "recipe".

bolded by me... it did not have to be at the tail end of a fight.. it just have been the culmination of everything totaled up together. We have all seen Casey's short circuit on video (Aug 13th)

I tend to think she could have still acted out in a rage.. but not because there was:
2 big blowouts one on the 7th and another one on the 15th . Do not believe they had to be physical.

Casey had a lot going on June 16th.
Only had about 3 hours of sleep.
Mom wants her out of the house.
She wants to be out of the house.
Gravy train is ending.
Need to look for job.
No money.
No place to move to.
Talks to Amy on the phone for 36 min.
Amy keeps calling about the getting a place together.
Where are they going to get a place? How do I slip out of this lie?
Caylee is a handful - two year old tantrums and potty training
Wanna party.
Tony calls...
wants to be with him.
Talks to Jesse...
Talks to Dad...
Caylee woke up...
She is wet...
Change her pants..
Can't find a sitter tonite.. mom will not do it anymore.
Hatred for her mom...
Caylee is fussing...
Lies are starting to catch up...
Caylee is fussing....
Teach my mom a lesson....
Take Caylee out of this world...to hurt her mother.. it is all her mother's fault she made me do this....

 

[ibyoungr]

mercy, mercy .... sounds entirely plausible, heck even more probable than the 6/15 fight date i was married to.

the A's wear me out. no kidding. they emotionally & intellectually kick my arse. how does anyone have the energy to live with all these lies, hate, drama, etc...?!? it exhausts me out just trying to keep up and make sense of it.

the only good thing is it makes me feel like my family is entirely 'functional'. LOLOL

I sometimes think Cindy was GLAD Casey was "trying to make it on her own" and was gone. She was probably enjoying the break except for missing Caylee.

 

[costalpilot]

I.......... Clark herself lost the case. It's her fault OJ walked. Now, back to the topic at hand.. regarding Furman, I.........

disagree

jury nullification

they didn't care


imo

 

[LCoastMom]

Something else to consider. George said Caylee usually slept in fairly late in the morning, which makes me think she doesn't generally go to sleep at 8ish like one would expect from a tot her age.

KC is either a night owl or requires very little sleep during this time, from what we see of her texting habits and also the times she would be on the computer with M Hawkins who was in Calif. I can't imagine KC would be too thrilled to be getting up at 7am with Caylee, knowing how late KC was up at nite.

So if KC had gotten Caylee into the habit of not going to sleep until 10 pmish or later, it would explain Cindy's need to have KC home at a reasonable hour since Cindy is the one getting up early in the morning for work. What difference would it make to Cindy if KC were home with Caylee, if Caylee was asleep? On the other hand if Caylee is still good to go til 10 pm and Cindy gets up for work at 6, it would make a huge difference to her. One more piece of evidence for Cindy's claim of KC being a bad mom.

I thought Lee said the last time he saw Caylee was his moms BDay, but he didn't see KC that time?

 

[Friday]

People argue differently at different times. Sometimes I see folks who are mad who call, call, call, ad infinitum...and other times the same person doesn't call and takes the "silent treatment" approach...

When it comes to Cindy and Casey, I think they fought a lot, and I think they played little mind games with each other (for starters - don't even get me started on the strangling business.)

Following up on the storm's-a-brewing theory ... I have a feeling that when Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora that morning, Casey had agreed that she'd be home by such-and-such a time, ergo when CIndy arrived home and found no Casey, she called and left a message. Her not calling and calling over and over doesn't really mean anything to me - she's likely gotten used to Casey's habits and could've known that to continue calling wouldn't do any good...or maybe she was now so angry about the $$ issues that she's now beyond what time Casey arrived home and is so angry she's just waiting for Casey to arrive home...

Maybe when Casey called Cindy at 5 p.m. w/o checking her voice mail (*Casey probably assumed Cindy's voice message was only a call to get her butt hoime, which she'd ignored,) but then Casey got a big surprise when she found out that CIndy had moved WAAAY beyond Casey not being home and the focus of the anger was the $$. The 3 minute convo was long enough for Cindy to have started in on Casey...and Cindy may have felt she'd put the fear of God into Casey - she may have hung up on Casey for all we know...

Then Casey calls around 7 p.m. to say she's now on her way, and Cindy says we'll talk when you get here...

Casey arrives home and who knows why they don't get into it upon arrival. I'm assuming they weren't fighting while Casey's busy texting...but I have to say, Casey's ability to disengage when her mother was frantically calling 911 has me wondering if, at times, Casey didn't just sit there while Cindy ranted at her, nod her head, or look away, and text away...[/bold]

Oh, good, I didn't need to write and post this same message with identical thoughts. LOL.

Re text in red: I think Caylee's bedtime would be closer to 7:30-8:00, particularly after such a strenuous day culminating with swimming. I think KC knew that and deliberately stayed away until after 7:00 so she'd have nothing else to do for Caylee when she got home except tuck Caylee into bed in KC's bedroom.

Cindy was probably spoiling for a fight by the time KC got home, but KC coldly warned her mother she would have to wait until Caylee was asleep, then KC took Caylee into the bedroom, and locked the door to keep Cindy out. Once in the bedroom alone with Caylee, instead of reading Caylee a bedtime story or anything else, KC simply put Caylee into the bed and began texting Tony and Amy.

Not wanting to keep Caylee from falling asleep, Cindy went about tidying up or whatever why waiting for her anticipated showdown with KC. By 9:26, Cindy knew Caylee would surely be fast asleep already, and perhaps she opened the door to see for herself or knocked on it. Either way, she ordered KC to come out. And the fight began. IMHO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

wow! You made my brain jerk to that direction.The whole post. Wouldn't it be bad if---omg----if CA killed the baby in the fight---maybe did it together. She kicks KC out of the house---later hids baby in firewell of trunk---KC riddin around not knowing what that smell was.

In the mean time---she starts to party---thinkin that CA has the baby----party--party---car smellin worse---throws trash in there to make it smell better---half cleans it and sprays it. Then when she can't stand it any longer she parks it and just walks off.

Oh my! I did take your brain! I had to check to be sure I hadn't read/posted here before. Today I began to consider this about CA and have been posting on the 911 thread. I hadn't realized a theory such as this had been touched on already. It may have merit imo.

The truth may be calling.

 

[Devon]

Something else to concider. George said Caylee usually slept in fairly late in the morning, which makes me think she doesn't generally go to sleep at 8ish like one would expect from a tot her age.

KC is either a night owl or requires very little sleep during this time, from what we see of her texting habits and also the times she would be on the computer with M Hawkins who was in Calif. I can't imagine KC would be too thrilled to be getting up at 7am with Caylee, knowing how late KC was up at nite.

So if KC had gotten Caylee into the habit of not going to sleep until 10 pmish or later, it would explain Cindy's need to have KC home at a reasonable hour since Cindy is the one getting up early in the morning for work. What difference would it make to Cindy if KC were home with Caylee, if Caylee was asleep? On the other hand if Caylee is still good to go til 10 pm and Cindy gets up for work at 6, it would make a huge difference to her. One more piece of evidence for Cindy's claim of KC being a bad mom.

I thought Lee said the last time he saw Caylee was his moms BDay, but he didn't see KC that time?

IIRC, in one of CA's interviews with LE, she tells how KC would often start to get Caylee ready for bed but that she (CA) would get KC to let Caylee stay up later so that she could have more of her company. I think this is probably true, and just one of the likely many ways in which CA would attempt to overrule KC - probably increasing Caylee's favour towards her in the process.....indulge.....spoil.....control....

 

[LCoastMom]

bolded by me... it did not have to be at the tail end of a fight.. it just have been the culmination of everything totaled up together. We have all seen Casey's short circuit on video (Aug 13th)

I tend to think she could have still acted out in a rage.. but not because there was:
2 big blowouts one on the 7th and another one on the 15th . Do not believe they had to be physical.

Casey had a lot going on June 16th.
Only had about 3 hours of sleep.
Mom wants her out of the house.
She wants to be out of the house.
Gravy train is ending.
Need to look for job.
No money.
No place to move to.
Talks to Amy on the phone for 36 min.
Amy keeps calling about the getting a place together.
Where are they going to get a place? How do I slip out of this lie?
Caylee is a handful - two year old tantrums and potty training
Wanna party.
Tony calls...
wants to be with him.
Talks to Jesse...
Talks to Dad...
Caylee woke up...
She is wet...
Change her pants..
Can't find a sitter tonite.. mom will not do it anymore.
Hatred for her mom...
Caylee is fussing...
Lies are starting to catch up...
Caylee is fussing....
Teach my mom a lesson....
Take Caylee out of this world...to hurt her mother.. it is all her mother's fault she made me do this....

After each of your points I see HATRED OF MOM! This is all mom's fault, all of KC's troubles can be traced back to mom, in her mind! So Casey implements what she has thought about for months...

This is chilling. I've had such a hard time seeing the end come together, but I can see this. It isn't the rage we saw in the jail vid. This is so much worse, this is the culmination of something KC has thought about since at least March. Coming from someone who doesn't make plans. This is cold, calculated hatred.

 

[Lanie]

According to phone pings, Casey was at the A's house every night Mon-Thurs, until the next day till usually around 11ish when she'd leave to go to Al's apartment. The only exception is Friday she goes to Fusion and then to Al's till 3:52 am, then she goes back to the A's house. I really don't see anywhere that Casey "moved out" on the 9th.

That's why I used quotes around the 'moved out'. I just would have sworn somewhere right at the very beginning Cindy said Casey moved out on June 9th, and then she backtracked and denied saying it. Maybe it was some kind of rumor thing I read as fact, because I haven't been able to find a source for it, but I do know this is something I have had in my head from the very first, so I do know I read it somewhere, and my memory is Cindy said it, and then a short time later, Cindy was denying it, and I was thinking, 'Whatever, I remember you saying it.'
IMO, Casey could have said she was moving out, but then couldn't find a place to stay and had to go home. Didn't she spend the night at Ricardo's on June 8th or 9th?
Lanie

 

[LCoastMom]

That's what makes me wonder how in the world CA can deny they had a fight. I was also trying to remember if the neighbors reported they heard the fight and what time it occurred. I know I read it somewhere, but can't recall.

respectfully snipped

The fights the neighbor commented on would have been during the day, the neighbor was doing yard work IIRC, KC and CA brought their fight outside.

Cindy can deny, deny, deny anything that doesn't fit into her reality. If she says it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Don't bother asking why she said different earlier, she will change the subject or refer you to her atty, who seems to have taken a liking to the KOOL AID they all drink.

Welcome to Cindyville. It's sort of like Fantasy Land at Disney; what you think you saw, isn't what Cindy wanted you to see, so you never saw anything! Really, just ask Cindy.

 

[ibyoungr]

Oh, good, I didn't need to write and post this same message with identical thoughts. LOL.

Re text in red: I think Caylee's bedtime would be closer to 7:30-8:00, particularly after such a strenuous day culminating with swimming. I think KC knew that and deliberately stayed away until after 7:00 so she'd have nothing else to do for Caylee when she got home except tuck Caylee into bed in KC's bedroom.

Cindy was probably spoiling for a fight by the time KC got home, but KC coldly warned her mother she would have to wait until Caylee was asleep, then KC took Caylee into the bedroom, and locked the door to keep Cindy out. Once in the bedroom alone with Caylee, instead of reading Caylee a bedtime story or anything else, KC simply put Caylee into the bed and began texting Tony and Amy.

Not wanting to keep Caylee from falling asleep, Cindy went about tidying up or whatever why waiting for her anticipated showdown with KC. By 9:26, Cindy knew Caylee would surely be fast asleep already, and perhaps she opened the door to see for herself or knocked on it. Either way, she ordered KC to come out. And the fight began. IMHO

Ok, ok I confess... :blush:
My daughter is 1 week older than Caylee. Since she is not in school and her home daycare is next to my house... My daughter's winter bedtime is 8:30 to 9 PM.

Here is the confession....
She stays up till 9:30 most summer nights if not till sometimes 10 pm on Fri or Sat. We have a wonderful neighborhood where the parents sit outside and visit and the kids play. Friday night we were out till 9:30.. 3 parents and about 10 kids playing tag, ball and keep away, jump rope and teasing each other. :blush: Sometimes she does go to bed during the week at 9 pm.. so maybe I am not all bad.

She is usually always up and ready to go at 7:30 during the week and 8:30 on the weekends.

 

[ibyoungr]

respectfully snipped

The fights the neighbor commented on would have been during the day, the neighbor was doing yard work IIRC, KC and CA brought their fight outside.

Cindy can deny, deny, deny anything that doesn't fit into her reality. If she says it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Don't bother asking why she said different earlier, she will change the subject or refer you to her atty, who seems to have taken a liking to the KOOL AID they all drink.

Welcome to Cindyville. It's sort of like Fantasy Land at Disney; what you think you saw, isn't what Cindy wanted you to see, so you never saw anything! Really, just ask Cindy.

Casey probably seen this her entire life.
It drives us crazy and makes us hate Cindy... why would it make Casey hate and despise her mother?
She learned to lie like her mother and then got in trouble for it. How mad does it make a child to see a parent doing something they were told not to do?

 

[ibyoungr]

After each of your points I see HATRED OF MOM! This is all mom's fault, all of KC's troubles can be traced back to mom, in her mind! So Casey implements what she has thought about for months...

This is chilling. I've had such a hard time seeing the end come together, but I can see this. It isn't the rage we saw in the jail vid. This is so much worse, this is the culmination of something KC has thought about since at least March. Coming from someone who doesn't make plans. This is cold, calculated hatred.

The hatred Casey has for her mother is so chilling that I do think she was planning on killing her. She thinks that she was sparing Caylee from her mother. Maybe she killed Caylee first and was finalizing the plans to kill mom and dad and did not get her chance. Took the insurance money and ran.

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

One thing I don't think anyone has pointed out, is that in the deposition, on Pg 133, Mr. Morgan had just referred to June 17 and asked Cindy, "Isn't that right after the Casey had a fight with her family --and left the home?" Cindy denied that and if she didn't have a fight on that day, even if she did a week or two before that, as often happens in families with older children in the house, then she wasn't lying. He didn't ask her if she EVER had a fight or argument with Casey. He was asking about that particular time frame. There is clearly a question as to if this fight actually took place on June 15 so I don't think we can treat it as fact. She probably said, "No, no, let it go. Let him look like an on the thing. Go ahead" because she knew that she already had it on the record, through Furman that there was no fight then. I hadn't seen the Geta/Furman, video, maybe Morgan hadn't either but she surely knew about it.

 

[Phumi]

One thing I don't think anyone has pointed out, is that in the deposition, on Pg 133, Mr. Morgan had just referred to June 17 and asked Cindy, "Isn't that right after the Casey had a fight with her family --and left the home?" Cindy denied that and if she didn't have a fight on that day, even if she did a week or two before that, as often happens in families with older children in the house, then she wasn't lying. He didn't ask her if she EVER had a fight or argument with Casey. He was asking about that particular time frame. There is clearly a question as to if this fight actually took place on June 15 so I don't think we can treat it as fact. She probably said, "No, no, let it go. Let him look like an on the thing. Go ahead" because she knew that she already had it on the record, through Furman that there was no fight then. I hadn't seen the Geta/Furman, video, maybe Morgan hadn't either but she surely knew about it.

AE, you might want to check out a few pages back. Several other posters were discussing this very thing.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Oh, good, I didn't need to write and post this same message with identical thoughts. LOL.

Re text in red: I think Caylee's bedtime would be closer to 7:30-8:00, particularly after such a strenuous day culminating with swimming. I think KC knew that and deliberately stayed away until after 7:00 so she'd have nothing else to do for Caylee when she got home except tuck Caylee into bed in KC's bedroom.

Cindy was probably spoiling for a fight by the time KC got home, but KC coldly warned her mother she would have to wait until Caylee was asleep, then KC took Caylee into the bedroom, and locked the door to keep Cindy out. Once in the bedroom alone with Caylee, instead of reading Caylee a bedtime story or anything else, KC simply put Caylee into the bed and began texting Tony and Amy.

Not wanting to keep Caylee from falling asleep, Cindy went about tidying up or whatever why waiting for her anticipated showdown with KC. By 9:26, Cindy knew Caylee would surely be fast asleep already, and perhaps she opened the door to see for herself or knocked on it. Either way, she ordered KC to come out. And the fight began. IMHO

OMG------I hope she open the door and catch KC in the middle of her deadly deed.

 

[Pink Panther]

I think that these two "women" were having spats and arguements and fights on an ongoing basis. I do believe that the first BIG BLOW OUT (with threats and possible "custody issues" being raised) occured on June 8th with KC not returning with Caylee to sleep on June 9th. I'm not sure about the details that week (of June 8th) but I think that KC and Caylee were away more than they were home. It seems to me that KC probably had something she wanted to do on the 15th and that she dropped Caylee off with CA for the day...

IMO CA is a chit-faced narcissistic liar and she's doing everything in her power to cover up the incredible dysfunction that her family has been living for years. Rick and Shirley seem to be the only ones in this fiasco who are genuinely able to understand and face the truth. George. Well George to me...is not even worthy of mention.

MOO. MOO. MOO.

If LE doesn't go after this motley crew once the trial is over I will completely and utterly disgusted. (I felt the same way about Howard Stern and that ding-bat psychologist "pseudo" friend of ANS's and am happy to see where they are now...)

 

[MAMABEAR]

Oh my! I did take your brain! I had to check to be sure I hadn't read/posted here before. Today I began to consider this about CA and have been posting on the 911 thread. I hadn't realized a theory such as this had been touched on already. It may have merit imo.

The truth may be calling.

SCARY HUH! Strange how sometimes 2-3-4 peeps hit on the same idea and the same time. Now Friday has me thinkin maybe CA walked in on KC while she was doin it. Hey we weren't there. They did for a fact start covering up at some point-------when the h3ll was it.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Wow, I just caught up. Eyes are crossed and so are doggies legs.

I feel like things are beginning to fall into place. I don't know who hands-on killed Caylee :furious: but I do feel like the family has been writing the script from the beginning. Their comments actually make sense when you apply them back to them. :crazy:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

It was something like...............haven't been home in a week..lots of DRAAAAAAAAAAAMA. Tell you about it later.......

I can't remember who she was texting.

Since nobody addressed this, I will. KC sent that text to Troy B.

IIRC the "rents" comment was a poster's term within a thread while we were discussing why KC would have left the house and where she might have gone.