Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[steff13]

What exactly would be the scenario for suffocation? As has been said, he didn't have any wounds on his hands. If someone was suffocating him, wouldn't he have defensive wounds? DNA under his fingernails?

 

[SunnieRN]

Search warrants released!


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15520745/...us-cell-phone-new-witnesses-accounts-reported

 

[CDS22]

What exactly would be the scenario for suffocation? As has been said, he didn't have any wounds on his hands. If someone was suffocating him, wouldn't he have defensive wounds? DNA under his fingernails?

Not if he were hit on the head first or somehow taken by surprise. However, he did have lots of contusions on his legs and face. The smaller the child the harder it is to prove suffocation via an autopsy (and the easier it is to suffocate them). RZ was more than twice MS's weight.

JMO

 

[Yoda]

Wow. In the search warrant it mentioned two soccer balls, but on the inventory there was only one, did I read too fast and miss it or was the ball not found. Sorry, I'm just in shock at the suffocation part and the first inconsistency I could find was the soccer ball. It may and prob is nothing.

 

[MyBelle]

The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

LE made it clear at the press conference that the info about who was in the home came from RZ. I thought it was curious that they pointed that out and wondered if they ever talked to XZ. It seems she was quickly whisked out of town. If the doctor treating Max believed he had been suffocated, he was required to alert police and CPS.

I do wonder if the ME was aware that the doctor had that suspicion and will continue to hold the opinion that LE will re-open their investigation into Max's death.

JMO

 

[CDS22]

Wow. In the search warrant it mentioned two soccer balls, but on the inventory there was only one, did I read too fast and miss it or was the ball not found. Sorry, I'm just in shock at the suffocation part and the first inconsistency I could find was the soccer ball. It may and prob is nothing.

I'm wondering if some of the stuff they seized that we assumed to be for RZ's case, turned out to be for MS's (black gloves, etc.)

 

[CDS22]

LE made it clear at the press conference that the info about who was in the home came from RZ. I thought it was curious that they pointed that out and wondered if they ever talked to XZ. It seems she was quickly whisked out of town. If the doctor treating Max believed he had been suffocated, he was required to alert police and CPS.

I do wonder if the ME was aware that the doctor had that suspicion and will continue to hold the opinion that LE will re-open their investigation into Max's death.

JMO

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

 

[SunnieRN]

Suffocation doesn't always show up in autopsies. Sometimes they have to know what the scenario was to get a suffocation ruling.

The AR does show a mark on MS's neck as well as multiple contusions and a neck twisted enough to unplug his spinal cord. Even RZ's hanging death didn't cause her to have an unplugged spinal cord.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

CD, before this goes any further, a doctor is required by law to report any form or type of child abuse. This is true if this injury results in a minor injury or if it results in a childs death

This doctor is MANDATED to report this. Immediately, to CPS. The wording was 'at first' he believed it to be....

Unless you are calling this doctor out, on refusing to comply with the law and therefore subjecting himself to jail time and loss of his license, I would say for certain, he does NOT believe that to be true at this point and time.

 

[MyBelle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the doctor's statement contribute to the search warrant for MS?

Absolutely. I've thought from the beginning that Max's injuries would have triggered a doctor's concern enough to alert LE.

 

[Yoda]

I found it hard to believe the LE description of how MS was injured- like most posters here, and i felt it was an unfortunate accident inadvertently caused by someone in the home. Because of the several day delay in investigating his death, the scene IMO was severely compromised. Now to find that a doctor initially thought MS might have been suffocated, and I have NO medical knowledge, so I am assuming this means closing off his airways or him being somewhere that there was insufficient air, ie refrigerator, I feel the best way to find out what happened will be from remaining witnesses. I use plural because anyone staying, visiting the house within a few days before the accident should be interviewed to determine the mood, what games were being played, ie hide and seek, planking,. Maybe LE has done this and that is why they determined it an accident, but without that knowledge, as a follower of these tragic events, IMO MS's death needs further review.
I am new to this so if any veteran posters can tell me, does LE usually release most of the info after the findings? And if they don't, is this just an instance of LE BADLY summarizing the events? Because every time they release something I have even more questions/concerns. Tia

 

[CDS22]

Absolutely. I've thought from the beginning that Max's injuries would have triggered a doctor's concern enough to alert LE.

Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

 

[MyBelle]

His unplugged spinal cord was definitely due to a twist, but highly unlikely a twist induced by human hands. According to the medical professional I consulted, the twist to unplug a spinal cord demands tremendous amount of force that he doubted it could possibly be done by a human. And if it was, it got to be by a super strong man, not a woman.

The abrasions on his nose could be caused by the fallen chandelier. Fallen objects often cause abrasions and contusions.

The unused hands and the back injury are the only two things I don't see plausible explanations and can be suspicious IMO. I hope more information will come out as you said.

Shattered glass usually cause cuts, not abrasions. And I don't believe it is impossible that the same human hands that suffocated the child also propelled him over the second floor railing to fall to his death.

JMO

 

[CDS22]

I found it hard to believe the LE description of how MS was injured- like most posters here, and i felt it was an unfortunate accident inadvertently caused by someone in the home. Because of the several day delay in investigating his death, the scene IMO was severely compromised. Now to find that a doctor initially thought MS might have been suffocated, and I have NO medical knowledge, so I am assuming this means closing off his airways or him being somewhere that there was insufficient air, ie refrigerator, I feel the best way to find out what happened will be from remaining witnesses. I use plural because anyone staying, visiting the house within a few days before the accident should be interviewed to determine the mood, what games were being played, ie hide and seek, planking,. Maybe LE has done this and that is why they determined it an accident, but without that knowledge, as a follower of these tragic events, IMO MS's death needs further review.

The only other potential witness is RZ's little sister, XZ. She had injuries bad enough to require stitches (allegedly from cleaning up the broken chandelier). She was taken on a shopping trip by RZ then sent home 2 weeks before she was due home. I sure hope the police question her again. I would hate to think (opinion alert) that the child was bribed with a shopping trip to keep silent about what really happened.

JMO

 

[stilettos]

Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

Do you have a link supporting the statement that the Doctor alerted authorities?

 

[CDS22]

Do you have a link supporting the statement that the Doctor alerted authorities?

The police used the doctor's statement to obtain the search warrants:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you for your response.

So the doctor alerted the authorities and they got the search warrants. This is going to be very interesting to see what unfolds.

The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.

 

[stilettos]

The police used the doctor's statement to obtain the search warrants:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

Thank you for the link. The key words in that report are "At first". I get that he thought that at first....if he still feels that way, he should step forward and call for further investigation.

 

[Yoda]

CDS22. I realize the only other person was XZ, but if it was intentional then anyone there the week before could speak to the mood- tense, angry, etc. If it wasn't intentional and more like MS hiding in the refrigerator, or someone jokingly locking him in a dock box and not realizing the outcome, then the earlier visitors could say time was spent playing hide and seek, good natured tormenting each other as brothers and sisters do. Imo

 

[SophieRose]

Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.
All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

And yet he was able to say "Ocean."

 

[CDS22]

The way it is unfolding is certainly confirming for me that RZ's death was a suicide. It's no coincidence that a second floor balcony factors into both deaths, imo.

I agree with you. I also think that the pressure might have been building what with Max's family (father, uncle, aunt) asking questions of her, and presumably the medical authorities, too. I also think she might have planned her suicide from the moment MS was taken to the hospital and not necessarily the night she got the phone call. JMO