Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

From what I recall quoted in this thread, very light marks that were observed after he was moved with a suspected back injury. The matching abrasions were likely caused by a neck brace placed by the EMS.

I have never heard of neck braces causing marks like that, nor do they state that the marks were found only after he was moved with a suspected back injury.

 

[steff13]

He had marks on his neck. Sounds kind of odd for a "fall", doesn't it?

I still never saw in the AR where he had marks on his neck, other than one just above his right clavicle, which had no corresponding internal injury.

I still maintain that the abrasion on the "lateral left ala," was referring to his nose not his neck.

Which means there were no "marks on his neck," there was one light mark just above his clavicle on the right.

 

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

I have never heard of neck braces causing marks like that, nor do they state that the marks were found only after he was moved with a suspected back injury.

I know of at least one case (in high school, one of the groups I volunteered with toured a nearby medical centre to educate about impaired driving. In one of the wards we stopped and talked with a teenaged girl who pointed out the marks on her neck from the brace while discussing her injury) and since the only record of that particular injury I've heard is in the AR, it cannot be determined when it occured. While moving him, as a result of whatever occured, or a compeltely separate incident before his fall.

Steff's observations above also seem relevent. I don't have the heart to read the autopsy report, so I am going on what has been quoted here.

 

[CDS22]

I know of at least one case (in high school, one of the groups I volunteered with toured a nearby medical centre to educate about impaired driving. In one of the wards we stopped and talked with a teenaged girl who pointed out the marks on her neck from the brace while discussing her injury) and since the only record of that particular injury I've heard is in the AR, it cannot be determined when it occured. While moving him, as a result of whatever occured, or a compeltely separate incident before his fall.

Steff's observations above also seem relevent. I don't have the heart to read the autopsy report, so I am going on what has been quoted here.

He had multiple contusions on his legs, scrapes on his face, marks on the sides of his neck, and a back injury. Oddly enough, there were no marks on his hands from allegedly grabbing a chandelier as he flew through the air.

 

[steff13]

He had multiple contusions on his legs, scrapes on his face, marks on the sides of his neck, and a back injury. Oddly enough, there were no marks on his hands from allegedly grabbing a chandelier as he flew through the air.

Where in the AR does it state he had marks on the sides of his neck? I'm not being difficult, I really don't see it. Please cite the specific language.


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[CDS22]

Where in the AR does it state he had marks on the sides of his neck? I'm not being difficult, I really don't see it. Please cite the specific language.


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I gave you the page number many posts ago (pages 5-6). <modsnip>

 

[steff13]

I gave you the page number many posts ago (pages 5-6). I can't make you see something you can't see. I don't know why the language is hard for you to understand. I can't cut-and-paste the segment because it's in PDF format.

I am talking about the language on pages 5-6. There isn't anything there about the side of his neck. I can't see something that isn't there.

 

[IWannaKnow]

From Max AR, page 6:

On the anterior right neck, just above the clavicle, there is an obliquely oriented, 1 x 1/4 inch, faint, red contusion/ecchymosis.

Ecchymosis:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecchymosis
Escape of the blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels.

This is a bruise on the front right side of his neck, just above his clavicle, or collar bone. Why should that be so surprising a finding, given that he died from head trauma? SDSO stated that he fell face first onto the floor after contact with both the chandelier and the opposite railing. Damage to the neck structures should be no surprise.

 

[SunnieRN]

From Max AR, page 6:


Ecchymosis:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ecchymosis
Escape of the blood into the tissues from ruptured blood vessels.

This is a bruise on the front right side of his neck, just above his clavicle, or collar bone. Why should that be so surprising a finding, given that he died from head trauma? SDSO stated that he fell face first onto the floor after contact with both the chandelier and the opposite railing. Damage to the neck structures should be no surprise.

Which is a possibility with a c spine collar.

 

[steff13]

I'm not talking about his nose. I'm talking about his neck.

The child died from a twist of the neck so sharp that it uplugged his spinal cord. He also has abrasions on his neck. Put those two together and they don't support the evidence of a fall.

And I am asking you to cite the specific language in the AR that describes the abrasions to his neck.

 

[CDS22]

Now page 4 on this link:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai, max_report.pdf

depicts the abrasions on little Max's spine. Those are conducive with someone being DRAGGED across a rough surface like a carpet, IMO.

 

[stilettos]

Now page 4 on this link:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai, max_report.pdf

depicts the abrasions on little Max's spine. Those are conducive with someone being DRAGGED across a rough surface like a carpet, IMO.

That does not answer the question posed. Where in the autopsy report does it specify the abrasions to the neck that you refer to? Not the ones to the nose....the neck.

 

[IWannaKnow]

I'm not talking about his nose. I'm talking about his neck.

The child died from a twist of the neck so sharp that it uplugged his spinal cord. He also has abrasions on his neck. Put those two together and they don't support the evidence of a fall.

I cannot understand this logic. How do you think those bruises got there? "uplugged" his spinal cord.....but you don't think he would have trauma to his neck? Please explain your reasoning, because I truly want to understand how you think he could suffer that injury without neck injuries and what you think same neck injuries DO indicate.

 

[IWannaKnow]

That does not answer the question posed. Where in the autopsy report does it specify the abrasions to the neck that you refer to? Not the ones to the nose....the neck.

I posted it upthread stilettos. It is a bruise above his clavicle.

 

[stilettos]

I posted it upthread stilettos. It is a bruise above his clavicle.

O...I thought th epost was referring to other abrasions not the one above the clavicle...which could or could not be referred to as the neck.

 

[CDS22]

I cannot understand this logic. How do you think those bruises got there? "uplugged" his spinal cord.....but you don't think he would have trauma to his neck? Please explain your reasoning, because I truly want to understand how you think he could suffer that injury without neck injuries and what you think same neck injuries DO indicate.

Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.

 

[steff13]

O...I thought th epost was referring to other abrasions not the one above the clavicle...which could or could not be referred to as the neck.

I would refer to above the clavicle as the neck, but it was being asserted that there were abrasions on the sides of the neck. I don't see any indication of that. The specific word that was being used by the other poster was "lateral." The injury above the clavicle is referred to as "anterior," not "lateral."

 

[CDS22]

Another amazing point from the AR: "There is no scalp laceration". Pretty remarkable for someone who allegedly fell through a chandelier to not have one single cut on the scalp.

IMO

 

[CDS22]

Now this is interesting:

A third warrant, signed July 22, shows that Coronado police seized several items from the mansion, including an ornate chandelier found in the trash, a black T-shirt, electrical wire, a silver Razor scooter and a soccer ball. All of the items had been found and photographed in the stairwell of the home, shortly after Max was injured.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/22/state-ag-wont-review-deaths-spreckels-mansion/

I wish those had been taken as soon as Max's accident was reported.

 

[KarenM]

According to Max's AR, he died of severe spinal cord hyperextension. So severe that his spinal cord was unplugged from his brain stem. Some people may say he died of oxygen deprivation in the brain. But the oxygen deprivation was caused by the cardio arrest which was the consequence of the unplugged spinal cord.

Max was not strangled to death. Strangulation is very easily detected in autopsy. And there is no evidence supporting that based on his AR.

I consulted a medical professional who treated a lot of patients with fall injuries and asked him about possible causes of an unplugged spinal cord. He said the forces had to be tremendous to cause such a rare injury. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). Even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cord. RZ was an example. She was hanged on the neck and dropped an estimated 9 feet. The pressure on her neck must have been tremendous but her autopsy did not show an unplugged spinal cord. The specialist said that it was much easier to break someone's neck than unplugging someone's spinal cord from the brain stem.

I then asked him how likely it would be for a human to twist someone's neck and unplug that person's spinal cord. He said he doubted it was even humanly possible. But if it was possible (since nothing was 100% in this world), the perpetrator had to be extremely strong, maybe someone who resembles Conan, definitely not someone who is 5'3" and 100LB like RZ.

Since Dina has a team of specialists working for her to investigate Max's death, more than likely she has heard similar opinions.

Did RZ abuse Max? I don't know. But if she did, July 11 could not be the first time she did it. Why weren't there any signs of abuse before? Max was six and spent time with his biological mother frequently without RZ being present. Wouldn't he tell if he was abused? Why didn't doctors at ER notice any child abuse symptom and inform the child protective service? They are trained in recognizing signs of child abuse.

Did RZ have a motivation to kill Max? In my opinion, no. She would not inherit a single cent if Max died. She would probably be kicked out of JS's life entirely if not having to spend all her life behind bars.

Could it be that Rebecca had done something bad to Max and in a panic decided to throw him off the railing and kill him to cover up? Extremely unlikely. Throwing a kid down from second floor stairs will not be able to kill a child 99% of the time. Max more than likely would survive and tell his parents what happened. RZ cannot expect herself to hit the murder lottery and have Max&#8217;s spinal cord unplugged. If she happened to injure Max any other way (let's say the injury left mark on Max's back, just for the sake of it), that injury was not cause of death based on the AR.

Did RZ manipulate the scene where Max was found to avoid being seen as a negligent care giver? Possible but no one can be certain. The scooter did not fit in the scene easily. But we cannot say for sure as there was no video.

Max was the only person who knew what happened. But he died. RZ might or might not know depending whether she indeed was in the bathroom when the incident happened. But she is dead anyway. Xena may or may not know, also depending on whether she indeed was taking a shower when the incident happened. The police should administer an interview on Xena in my opinion. And if the Zahau family is willing, I think a lie detecting test on Xena doesn't sound very inappropriate to give the Shacknais some closure in this matter.