Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[CDS22]

Newly obtained search warrants reveal that a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated.

A county sheriff’s investigation later confirmed that Max died after falling down the stairs in the infamous Spreckles mansion where Rebecca Zahau was found dead days later.

However, Dr. Brad Peterson, a doctor at Rady’s Children’s hospital was quoted in a search warrant saying that Max might have suffocated before the fall. The visible injuries were not consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by the boy, Peterson said.

Source: Shacknai Boy May Have Suffocated: Doctor | NBC San Diego

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Shacknai-Boy-May-Have-Suffocated-Doctor-130367943.html

 

[SophieRose]

In CA living together also has legal financial consequences.

Out of curiosity, what are they?

 

[CDS22]

Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

 

[stilettos]

Out of curiosity, what are they?

It is complicated...http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm71/7182/7182.asp

 

[Betty P]

Source: Shacknai Boy May Have Suffocated: Doctor | NBC San Diego

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Shacknai-Boy-May-Have-Suffocated-Doctor-130367943.html

Interesting. Sounds more and more like there needs to be an independent investigation, peer reviewed and open to the public.

This news coming today also sounds as though more warrants are going to be released. Pre-emptive PR. IMO

 

[Salem]

Do NOT BICKER! Help each other out - don't go getting all defensive and ugly.

When you are asked to support your statement (not an opinion) or clarify - please do so, WITHOUT GETTING SNARKY.

Treat each other respectfully.

This is the last warning about bickering.

This post lands at random.

Salem

 

[CDS22]

Interesting. Sounds more and more like there needs to be an independent investigation, peer reviewed and open to the public.

This news coming today also sounds as though more warrants are going to be released. Pre-emptive PR. IMO

Kind of makes you wonder what else will come out.

 

[katydid23]

Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

But then how would his spinal cord become unplugged? I don't see how that could happen in a staging scene.

My potential theory is that something happened to make him fall over the balcony, like roughhousing, play fighting, or even an angry 13 yr old chasing him because he was being an annoying 6 yr old. My son used to take things from his 12 yr old cousin and run off, laughing, and she would get angry and chase him down to get her stuff back. So I have wondered if maybe there was a chase and or a tussle upstairs, that led to his fall.

That would explain why the Z family attorney came out with the accusations that the older sibs were there during the accident. I think someone who was there told the attorney that. But it was not true, so the attorney has backed off from that. But it seemed to me that someone was trying to blame this on the older siblings and planking. Maybe someone who wanted the focus away from them?

 

[CDS22]

But then how would his spinal cord become unplugged? I don't see how that could happen in a staging scene.

My potential theory is that something happened to make him fall over the balcony, like roughhousing, play fighting, or even an angry 13 yr old chasing him because he was being an annoying 6 yr old. My son used to take things from his 12 yr old cousin and run off, laughing, and she would get angry and chase him down to get her stuff back. So I have wondered if maybe there was a chase and or a tussle upstairs, that led to his fall.

That would explain why the Z family attorney came out with the accusations that the older sibs were there during the accident. I think someone who was there told the attorney that. But it was not true, so the attorney has backed off from that. But it seemed to me that someone was trying to blame this on the older siblings and planking. Maybe someone who wanted the focus away from them?

The doctor thinks he was suffocated, then went over the railing.

 

[justbetweenus]

Kind of makes you wonder what else will come out.

Has there been anything said that the sister had wet hair when police arrived? I would imagine it would be if she was in the shower.

 

[stilettos]

The doctor thinks he was suffocated, then went over the railing.

All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

 

[CDS22]

All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

 

[CDS22]

Has there been anything said that the sister had wet hair when police arrived? I would imagine it would be if she was in the shower.

That's a good point. She did have injuries (cuts on her hands and one on her leg deep enough to need stitches). She was supposed to be staying with RZ and JS for 2 weeks, but instead was flown back home the next day after a shopping trip with RZ.

 

[stilettos]

The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

Yes I know...it also does not say that MS died from suffocation.:waitasec:

 

[KarenM]

Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs, http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

 

[CDS22]

Yes I know...it also does not say that MS died from suffocation.:waitasec:

Suffocation doesn't always show up in autopsies. Sometimes they have to know what the scenario was to get a suffocation ruling.

The AR does show a mark on MS's neck as well as multiple contusions and a neck twisted enough to unplug his spinal cord. Even RZ's hanging death didn't cause her to have an unplugged spinal cord.

 

[CDS22]

Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

Or, could MS's spinal cord have become unplugged from the force in which his neck was twisted? (abrasions on his neck noted in the AR) Then the fall was staged (hence the abrasions on his back from the dragging), and the bizarre placing of the scooter, soccer balls, and chandelier.

Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.

He did have marks around his nose (abrasions) which are consistent with suffocation.

All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

 

[SunnieRN]

Abrasions on the back have nothing to do with a fall on the head. Experts state specifically that children who allegedly die or are injured in falls typically do not have any injuries on their trunks. In other words, there should be no dragging marks on a spinal cord if the fatal injuries were caused by whiplash.

"dragging marks'?

Okay, so now we've got a doctor from Rady's stating he thinks Max was suffocated, and that Max's visible injuries were not consistent with his internal injuries. And we have a little boy with scrape marks (abrasions) down his spine, as though he were dragged down the steps. So could someone have suffocated Max, then dragged him downstairs to stage an accidental "fall" scene? Could someone have known Max suffered oxygen deprivation and would in no way recover to say what happened, long before he even got examined by doctors? Just some speculation on my part.

That is some speculation, considering that the ME, whom you say 'got it right' with Rebecca, stated NO such thing concerning Max and his injuries.

All the more reason to ascertain exactly which minor children were in the home when. To interview each of them again...and find out how or if it relates to RZ's death. It sounds as though there are serious grounds to reopen both investigations. It would be paramount to prove who was with MS during the time in question..and all avenues are needing investigation...including family members.

This needs to be looked at again and thoroughly. This is especially true to to LE's statements which have been proven unreliable to this point in the case:

Jonah never left Max that night

Adam passed a lie detector case

The 12:30 phone call/voice message made Rebecca so despondent, she committed suicide.

etc. etc, etc.

The AR states that only RZ and XZ were in the home with MS at the time of the child's injury.

Please see above. Thank you.

 

[stilettos]

Here is my speculation on the suffocation theory.

The article says "a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated". The phrase "at first" implies the suspicion was later dropped.

So why did the doctor initially think MS was suffocated? (My speculation follows) When MS was first admitted to the hospital, no one would have known or even guessed he had an unplugged spinal cord. An unplugged spinal cord is very unusual and can't be identified until thorough examination is completed. If the doctor did not know about the unplugged spinal cord, he could not have thought of the chain reaction as follows:
unplugged spinal cord -> cardiac arrest -> deprivation of oxygen in the brain (swelling brain). This chain reaction is a sure thing confirmed by many medical professionals who examined the AR later.

ER doctors see tons of fall injuries. They are not normally accompanied by cardiac arrest and swelling brain. That’s why there is a note that inconsistency existed between the visible fall injury symptoms - fracture on the forehead etc. - and the sign of oxygen deprivation in the brain.

So what would be a much more common cause of cardiac arrest and swelling brain (which indicated oxygen deprivation)? The most common cause is suffocation. It was more likely and reasonable for the doctor to think the child was suffocated than to think that his spinal cord was unplugged, which is extremely rare.

Doctors in ER or any other divisions of the hospital are not forensic pathologists. They don’t have the expertise in determining cause of death. That's why the cause of death has to be determined by the forensic doctor. Strangulation (where the victim's neck has been compressed) and suffocation (where the victim's nose and mouth have been covered by objects such as pillows or duct tapes) are detectable upon autopsy (http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/asphyxiation-signs, http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html). And the bottom line is that the forensic pathologist did not find anything in the autopsy to support such a theory.

Since the Shacknais are resourceful, I think they probably have hired professionals to double or even triple check the pathological findings of their beloved son.

Thank you. I did not know the doctor was being mis-quoted....."At first" is part of the quote that was left out. Interesting.

 

[KarenM]

Or, could MS's spinal cord have become unplugged from the force in which his neck was twisted? (abrasions on his neck noted in the AR) Then the fall was staged (hence the abrasions on his back from the dragging), and the bizarre placing of the scooter, soccer balls, and chandelier.

Remember, he didn't have cuts on his hands from grabbing the chandelier, and the marks on his back were not consistent with a fall. He also didn't have marks on his hands from trying to stop the fall, so that suggests he was already unconscious prior to falling down the stairs.

He did have marks around his nose (abrasions) which are consistent with suffocation.

All of this is only my opinion and pure speculation on my part, but I do think that new information will be forthcoming.

His unplugged spinal cord was definitely due to a twist, but highly unlikely a twist induced by human hands. According to the medical professional I consulted, the twist to unplug a spinal cord demands tremendous amount of force that he doubted it could possibly be done by a human. And if it was, it got to be by a super strong man, not a woman.

The abrasions on his nose could be caused by the fallen chandelier. Fallen objects often cause abrasions and contusions.

The unused hands and the back injury are the only two things I don't see plausible explanations and can be suspicious IMO. I hope more information will come out as you said.