Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[rosemary]

If someone was alive to question, that might have changed. Also, RZ did not know what the outcome would be.

IMO

If Rebecca had been under suspicion for negligence or something worse, the police would have investigated the matter further by questioning Rebecca's sister. She is still alive you know. Btw, how would you know that the whole outcome would have changed if Rebecca is still alive? Remember, the LE only decided to take another look at Max's fall after Rebecca was found dead, and they still found the whole incident to be an accident.

 

[sdcali]

I began rewatching the PC today. LE pointed out that there was chandelier glass on the first floor landing near the stairs descending to the foyer. I am puzzled as to how it got there. The only answer I have is if Maxie fell onto the chandelier and swung with it toward that side of the lower staircase as the chandelier chain broke and both fell agains that part of the bannister. It was also mentioned that broken glass was found in that corner of the alcove below.

I think that is where they came up with the conclusion that he fell off the stairway from direction that they do and with enough velocity that he swung the chandelier to that point before it broke loose and fell.

I am still having trouble with that and wish that LE had taken photos of the hall looking toward the chandelier over that part of the bannister that they believe he went over. I can understand that if were able to fall onto the chandelier that it could swing and carry him over to the other side, but I still struggle with that scenario.

What do I think happened? I have no scenario of my own, yet.

 

[Sharyne]

I was the OP who suggested that the chandelier fell to the ground, injuring Max. I am unable to see how he fell/jumped on the chandelier, so it occurred to me that perhaps the chandelier fell to the floor, knocking him down.

As to why it would fall, well chandeliers do, occasionally. Google 'chandelier falls' and you will find a number of cases, particularly in public buildings where they would definitely be publicized.

Of course, not a single one of us on this board knows for sure how the chandelier came down. It's just my opinion that it could have become loose and fallen. And no, it wouldn't have had to have fallen completely on him-but if a 100 lb +(estimated) light fixture fell, it could have knocked him down and to one side.

When I first read about Max having fallen from the stairs, the comments below the article that first night mentioned a chandelier was part of the scene - by supposed neighbors talking about it.

 

[rosemary]

My main concern is why would RN tell the ME one thing, that Max was last seen in the kitchen, and then tell her sisters other details, like he was last known to be playing in the hallway? If you're explanation is correct, then she should have shared that with the authorities, and not just said " he was in the kitchen last I knew.'

And if she did hear him playing in the upstairs hallway then imo, she should have left the bathroom, and gone and checked on him, and asked him not to run in the upstairs stairway area. imoo

In many ways a 6 yr old needs more supervision than a toddler. And I never said she was a vicious criminal, just that she was not a very good babysitter,imo. She should not have been in the bathroom for up to 20 minutes while she could hear Max running around in the upstairs hallway, unsupervised. That is not 'trashing' her, just stating my opinion. And the reason it is important is because I see it as a valid motivation for either her murder or her suicide.

Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so. And if he had been as good a father as some people here have claimed, why didn't he child proof his house to prevent or minimize the risks of accidents? In a house that big, it would have been hard to closely supervise a boy as active and boisterous as Max. Fatal accidents do happen, even to children with attentive parents. In fact, it's the number one cause of mortality for children aged 5 to 14 years of age.

5-14 years of age
Number of deaths: 6,147
Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.3
Leading causes of death
Accidents (unintentional injuries)
Cancer
Sources: Deaths: Final Data for 2007, tables 10, 11 [PDF - 555 KB] and Deaths: Leading Causes for 2007, table 1 [PDF - 3.7 MB]

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/children.htm

 

[SophieRose]

That would be great if they get the SW & affidavits released. They may answer many of our questions.

Yes they may. There was one search warrant by Coronado LE, one by the San Diego Sheriff, and many many for phone records.

 

[CDS22]

Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so. And if he had been as good a father as some people here have claimed, why didn't he child proof his house to prevent or minimize the risks of accidents? In a house that big, it would have been hard to closely supervise a boy as active and boisterous as Max. Fatal accidents do happen, even to children with attentive parents. In fact, it's the number one cause of mortality for children aged 5 to 14 years of age.



http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/children.htm

Fatal accidents do happen, but falling down the stairs and receiving whiplash at the age of 6? How common is that?

Also, what do you think JS should have done to minimize the risks of a fatal fall? Remove the stairs?

 

[CDS22]

Rebecca was Jonah's gf, she may not have been a good babysitter but it is not her job to look after her bf's kids. Even if she had agreed to take care of Jonah's children, she is not entirely responsible for their safety and well being. Being the dad, Jonah should have hired a nanny or babysitter or someone who knows how to look after kids rather than relying on his lover to do so.

So you think hired staff could do a better job of watching children than someone who professes to love the child so much that she refers to him as her son?

 

[SunnieRN]

Someone might have failed to call him until the were on the way to the hospital, in which case it would make no sense to go home first. I almost wish that he did, though, so someone who cares about Max could have seen how he was laying, where the chandelier pieces were, etc.

Are you saying that Rebecca did not call JS, prior to her being taken to the hospital and police station, or something else? I'm sorry if I missed something that explains this up thread.

The report says she told the police she gave Max a "few rescue breaths". "A few" doesn't sound too enthusiastic, does it?

If you could supply a link that states 'a few', I would appreciate it, as I am wondering if she was doing all compressions either before or after the rescue breaths. TIA

 

[curiousjo]

CPR guidelines have changed - the layperson is tought to do chest comprssions ONLY, and to not perform rescue breaths.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/203720.php

"A statewide program was set up in Arizona aimed at improving the survival rates for people with cardiac arrest outside a hospital setting.

....As compression only CPR, known medically as COCPR is easier to teach and then perform by lay people compared to conventional CPR with mouth-to-mouth breathing, a multifaceted effort was launched to encourage COCPR.

...The investigators discovered, after further examination, that those receiving COCPR had a 60% higher chance of surviving compared to individuals receiving conventional CPR".

 

[CDS22]

Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

 

[jjenny]

Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

Only he didn't fell "down the stairs." He fell into the stair well.

 

[ehough22]

To be honest I don't understand the accusations that Rebecca wasn't performing CPR or somehow failed in her duty to Max based on how she did or didn't perform it. She did perform it (according to the AR) but when the EMTs arrived she was not. If I had performed CPR unsuccessfully for however many minutes and then the EMTs arrived, I would stop too. It was their job and I would get the heck out of the way in the hopes that they could do it. I would only continue until they physically moved me out of the way if I was successful, which she wasn't. We simply don't know what happened, granted, but it is not odd, suspicious, or malicious of someone to stop CPR when the professionals arrive, IMO.

I also think, once again, we need to take Rebecca's sisters' claims with a grain of salt. Even though I agree with them I don't put a lot of weight on their statements. They weren't there. Any claims that Rebecca heard Max upstairs are simply hearsay. Statistically, statements made right after the fact and by parties directly involved are going to be more accurate than those made by a third party a month or two after an incident. I'm not saying there wasn't something hinky going on that day or that things went exactly as Rebecca says they did. I just don't think we can really take these statements as fact or as evidence of anything.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

Statistics of child deaths from fall down stairs:

http://adc.bmj.com/content/86/suppl_1/A53.full.pdf

The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

But he didn't fall down the stairs, he went over the railing..

 

[CDS22]

To be honest I don't understand the accusations that Rebecca wasn't performing CPR or somehow failed in her duty to Max based on how she did or didn't perform it. She did perform it (according to the AR) but when the EMTs arrived she was not. If I had performed CPR unsuccessfully for however many minutes and then the EMTs arrived, I would stop too. It was their job and I would get the heck out of the way in the hopes that they could do it. I would only continue until they physically moved me out of the way if I was successful, which she wasn't. We simply don't know what happened, granted, but it is not odd, suspicious, or malicious of someone to stop CPR when the professionals arrive, IMO.

I also think, once again, we need to take Rebecca's sisters' claims with a grain of salt. Even though I agree with them I don't put a lot of weight on their statements. They weren't there. Any claims that Rebecca heard Max upstairs are simply hearsay. Statistically, statements made right after the fact and by parties directly involved are going to be more accurate than those made by third party a month or two after an incident. I'm not saying there wasn't something hinky going on that day or that things went exactly as Rebecca says they did. I just don't think we can really take these statements as fact or as evidence of anything.

I don't think anyone is accusing RZ of anything, but rather examining the AR, which states that she told them she gave a few rescue breaths, but wasn't actually witnessed doing it. Since it wasn't witnessed, and since there are other discrepancies (calling Max her son, calling her sister her daughter, saying she was in and out of the hospital all day when she really wasn't), makes people wonder what really happened. There are only three people who were in the house when Max fell, and two of them are dead. I guess that's why so many people are digging for answers.

IMO

 

[CDS22]

But he didn't fall down the stairs, he went over the railing..

There are no official statistics about 6 year old children who somehow fly through the air, wind up with a chandelier near them and a scooter over a shin, while sustaining fatal whiplash and injuries across the shoulder and back. At least not that I could find.

 

[ehough22]

I don't think anyone is accusing RZ of anything, but rather examining the AR, which states that she told them she gave a few rescue breaths, but wasn't actually witnessed doing it. Since it wasn't witnessed, and since there are other discrepancies (calling Max her son, calling her sister her daughter, saying she was in and out of the hospital all day when she really wasn't), makes people wonder what really happened. There are only three people who were in the house when Max fell, and two of them are dead. I guess that's why so many people are digging for answers.

IMO

I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the few rescue breaths. It says she gave a few and then told XZ to call 911. We don't know whether she resumed the breathing but it could have been worded that way to explain the timing and situation of the initial call. Elsewhere it says she did start CPR which I assume they are differentiating from rescue breaths.

Regardless my point was that while I understand the necessity and urge to go over every detail with a fine toothed comb, I simply don't think Rebecca stopping CPR once EMT arrived is anything noteworthy. I think it's understandable.

 

[justice be served]

My first post on WS was regarding hearsay that Rebecca wasn't thought to be very good with Max. Being new, I learned quickly about the great rules of WS including those on hearsay. That reported hearsay may or may not be true and not being good with a little guy certainly shouldn't be construed that she killed him.

What I do know about this Max thread is much of its tone is vitriolic and vengeful toward Rebecca which certainly in my mind is persecuting Rebecca after her death. IMO Max's death doesn't add up however..........

Perhaps a new thread should be initiated by those who want to persecute Rebecca and call it "Is An 'Eye-for-an-Eye' Warranted?".

IMO two wrongs don't make a right and this should be an unsaid value. If Rebecca was somehow responsible in any way for Max's death, she has already paid the ultimate price whether by suicide or murder. And no I don't want to see my suggested thread get started.

 

[CDS22]

I don't think that's necessarily true regarding the few rescue breaths. It says she gave a few and then told XZ to call 911. We don't know whether she resumed the breathing but it could have been worded that way to explain the timing and situation of the initial call. Elsewhere it says she did start CPR which I assume they are differentiating from rescue breaths.

Regardless my point was that while I understand the necessity and urge to go over every detail with a fine toothed comb, I simply don't think Rebecca stopping CPR once EMT arrived is anything noteworthy. I think it's understandable.

The "few rescue breaths" are on page 2 of the AR, which is linked in the first post of this thread.

Also, it does not say RZ STOPPED giving CPR when they arrived. It says she was NOT giving CPR when they arrived.

 

[CDS22]

My first post on WS was regarding hearsay that Rebecca wasn't thought to be very good with Max. Being new, I learned quickly about the great rules of WS including those on hearsay. That reported hearsay may or may not be true and not being good with a little guy certainly shouldn't be construed that she killed him.

What I do know about this Max thread is much of its tone is vitriolic and vengeful toward Rebecca which certainly in my mind is persecuting Rebecca after her death. IMO Max's death doesn't add up however..........

Perhaps a new thread should be initiated by those who want to persecute Rebecca and call it "Is An 'Eye-for-an-Eye' Warranted?".

IMO two wrongs don't make a right and this should be an unsaid value. If Rebecca was somehow responsible in any way for Max's death, she has already paid the ultimate price whether by suicide or murder. And no I don't want to see my suggested thread get started.

I haven't seen anyone suggest RZ killed anyone, including MS. I believe many of us are simply trying to figure out the logistics of a child's death.

IMO

 

[ehough22]

The "few rescue breaths" are on page 2 of the AR, which is linked in the first post of this thread.

Also, it does not say RZ STOPPED giving CPR when they arrived. It says she was NOT giving CPR when they arrived.

....precisely. I see the few rescue breaths. I'm saying that doesn't mean she only did those few breaths.

And semantics, really. I am very uncomfortable with the insinuation that because a person was not performing CPR when the professionals arrived it means she was lying about performing it to begin with. As I've said, I think there's a logical reason for her to not be performing it once they arrived. I simply wanted to point out that there are less than malicious reasons for that.