Discuss Max's death here - Thread #1.

[rosemary]

Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

 

[rosemary]

I do not expect that she was an 'expert.' But I would expect that she kept an eye on a young boy and listened for danger. Being in the bathroom for 20 minutes,while also hearing him 'playing' in the upstairs hallway just requires common sense, not expertise, that one would stick your head out of the door and ask him to stop running or scooting or playing soccer upstairs. It is just common sense,imo. Her family's attorney claims it was a planking accident. It does not require an expert to prevent a 6 yr old from planking on a second floor stairway.

If the water had been running in the bathroom, Rebecca would have not have been able to properly hear Max playing upstairs. I seriously doubt a mansion that big (it had three floors) would have been able to carry sound the way a smaller house would have. Plus if the floor was carpeted, that would have also served to mute the sound of running footsteps or a scooter. One of my family friends also has a three storey house, it's pretty big but nowhere near the size of the the Shacknai Colorado mansion. Even then, it's still hard to hear any sounds coming from the third level if you were downstairs on the first floor, unless it was extremely loud. And this was with wooden flooring rather than carpeting.

20 minutes might seem like a long time to leave a child by himself, but Max was 6 years old! I know of plenty of parents, including my own, who feel that a 6 year old child is old enough not to require constant supervision all the time. And I think that if Max had actually needed that much supervision, Jonah should have hired a professional nanny or babysitter to look after him, instead of relying on his gf to do so.

 

[CDS22]

How do you know for sure that the LE hadn't investigated or at least inquired about what happened to Max? Plus, if the LE had already declared Max's fall to be an accident without even bothering to investigate it, why would Rebecca have killed herself then? And if she truly was responsible for what had happened and killed herself because of her guilty conscience, why didn't she write an apology or confession admitting that she was the one who had caused Max to fall from the stairs? I know that this is thread is about Max, but it's hard not to talk about Rebecca as well since the two deaths are linked together.

Even if the scene of the accident had been cleaned days before anyone had decided to look into Max's demise, that still doesn't mean that the LE wouldn't have been able to glean information as to what exactly had happened when he fell.They could have interviewed Rebecca's sister, and if her statement had contradicted Rebecca's, they would have or should have taken note of that and investigated it further. And I believe the LE have also examined the area from where Max had fallen from, there were a few photos back in one of the older threads which showed the police using a blue light to examine the walls and the staircase of the house. Plus, they would still have known what the original scene of the accident had looked like based on the initial police report on Max's fall. The ME was the one who had determined that Max's injuries and subsequent death were consistent with those of an accidental fall, this is the same ME who had also declared that Rebecca's injuries and death were consistent with a suicidal hanging rather than a homicidal one.

The LE have more information to go by with RZ's death than they do MS's death, because they investigated her death more. They took RZ's word for what happened to MS and let her clean up the scene almost immediately.

I've been reading about deaths that were at first assumed to be falls. Later on, they've been found to be homicides. Am I saying MS's death was a homicide? No. But I am saying that things aren't always what they appear, and that the explanation we've been given for MS's fall does not make sense. Perhaps the police have more information they're not releasing, but with what they've told us, it just doesn't add up.

 

[CDS22]

Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

I am RS's size and weigh less than she did. I can easily pick up a 6 year old child, so yes, I think it's possible for a petite woman to do something like that. However, just because something is in the realm of possibility doesn't mean it happened.

I'd rather concentrate on the logistics of how MS was found on the floor, surrounded by 2 balls, a scooter, and a chandelier at his shoulder, than I would on possible scenarios than might or might not have happened. In other words, I'd like to stick with what we know. That's just my two cents.

 

[CDS22]

Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

Speaking of size and what is and isn't possible, I don't believe it's possible for a 45 lb. boy to bring down a chandelier. I have four chandeliers in my house, and when I was worried about the large one possibly falling and injuring someone, the man who put it in for us proved to me that it was secure by getting up on a ladder and swinging from it. That's what makes this entire thing so strange to me - the chandelier and the scooter.

 

[CDS22]

If the water had been running in the bathroom, Rebecca would have not have been able to properly hear Max playing upstairs. I seriously doubt a mansion that big (it had three floors) would have been able to carry sound the way a smaller house would have. Plus if the floor was carpeted, that would have also served to mute the sound of running footsteps or a scooter. One of my family friends also has a three storey house, it's pretty big but nowhere near the size of the the Shacknai Colorado mansion. Even then, it's still hard to hear any sounds coming from the third level if you were downstairs on the first floor, unless it was extremely loud. And this was with wooden flooring rather than carpeting.

20 minutes might seem like a long time to leave a child by himself, but Max was 6 years old! I know of plenty of parents, including my own, who feel that a 6 year old child is old enough not to require constant supervision all the time. And I think that if Max had actually needed that much supervision, Jonah should have hired a professional nanny or babysitter to look after him, instead of relying on his gf to do so.

If she was in the bathroom that she says she was, and if MS was where the LE think he was when he fell, she should have been able to hear something before the big crash. For example, if he fell from the railing onto the bannister, that sound alone would reverberate throughout the house.

Another thing that is odd is RZ said she called for XZ to come to help her and call 911 while RZ gave MS CPR. However, she also says XZ was in the shower. So if XZ couldn't hear a 4 year old swinging from a chandelier and crashing from railing to bannister to wall to floor, how could she hear RZ call her name? Just doesn't add up.

 

[CDS22]

Btw, is it possible that a woman the size and weight of Rebecca could have had the strength to have lifted Max up and thrown him with such force from the railings that he collided with the chandelier and brought it down with him? If she had been able to do that, I think there would have or should have been signs of scratches, DNA, or fingerprints from both Rebecca and Max on the hand railings because I don't believe that a 6 year old boy would have allowed himself to be lifted off the stairs without putting up a struggle and a fight.

We do know that XZ was injured enough for RZ to call her sister the nurse and ask what to do about the injuries. We also know that RZ told the dog guy that XZ was injured as MS was in the fall. I'm not disputing that the injuries could have been caused by cleaning up broken glass, but it sure would have been nice to know for sure, particularly since XZ was whisked off to another state before she could be questioned further.

I also wonder if RZ's head bumps could have been caused prior to her hanging, meaning on the Monday that MS fell.

Since the Zahau family's lawyer has thrown out planking as the cause of MS's injuries, without RZ or XZ mentioning planking to the police, it makes me wonder if XZ admitted to planking. I could see a teenager or adult perhaps bringing down a chandelier and falling on a small boy who was on the floor playing. Falls are odd things. Sometimes if someone has a landing (like another person) they can get out of it nearly unscathed. There was a case not too long ago of someone jumping out the window in an apparent suicide. They landed on the person below. The person who was landed on died from injuries. The suicidal person remained unscathed. Just a thought.

IMO

 

[stilettos]

What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

 

[CDS22]

Just to give you an idea of a case involving a fall that was ruled murder:

http://www.peterson-staircase.com/coincidence.html

Now I'm not saying MS's fall was murder. I'm of the opinion that no one set out to kill MS that day. However, I am also of the opinion that the fall wasn't MS's fault and that we were not told the full story of what happened by RZ and/or XZ.

IMO

 

[CDS22]

And another case:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/3-Year-Olds-Fall-Death-Ruled-Homicide-125553898.html

 

[rosemary]

The LE have more information to go by with RZ's death than they do MS's death, because they investigated her death more. They took RZ's word for what happened to MS and let her clean up the scene almost immediately.

I've been reading about deaths that were at first assumed to be falls. Later on, they've been found to be homicides. Am I saying MS's death was a homicide? No. But I am saying that things aren't always what they appear, and that the explanation we've been given for MS's fall does not make sense. Perhaps the police have more information they're not releasing, but with what they've told us, it just doesn't add up.

How do you know that they just took her word for it without asking her questions about the incident? That would have been very incompetent of them. If the LE did a poor job investigating Max's accident, then one should also suspect that they also weren't up to task in handling Rebecca's death. But at least in Max's case, we got a re-enactment of his fall, even though some have considered it to be inaccurate. We didn't even get any of that in Rebecca's case.

I think if there was actually any evidence of a struggle or a fight between Rebecca and Max, it would be found in the spot where Max had fallen from. If the railings in the staircase were made of wood, it wouldn't have been easy to destroy or erase any signs of fingerprints or DNA on it.

 

[CDS22]

What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

This is the first I've heard of that. Can you tell me more?

I posted a link from one of the Zahau sisters stating that RZ didn't know what to do about XZ's injuries, and also that RZ told the dog guy her "daughter" was also injured in the same accident. The sister also said that RZ was concerned about XZ's injuries and wanted the sister who was a nurse to treat the wounds. The wounds were described as being on her hands. So if we have an injured leg and injured hands from someone who was allegedly in the shower during MS's fall that no one seemed to witness, well, that's just weird.

 

[CDS22]

How do you know that they just took her word for it without asking her questions about the incident? That would have been very incompetent of them. If the LE did a poor job investigating Max's accident, then one should also suspect that they also weren't up to task in handling Rebecca's death. But at least in Max's case, we got a re-enactment of his fall, even though some have considered it to be inaccurate. We didn't even get any of that in Rebecca's case.

I think if there was actually any evidence of a struggle or a fight between Rebecca and Max, it would be found in the spot where Max had fallen from. If the railings in the staircase were made of wood, it wouldn't have been easy to destroy or erase any signs of fingerprints or DNA on it.

Four independent teams investigated RZ's death. MS didn't have the same benefit.

As far as the re-enactment of RZ's suicide, they police did offer a live re-enactment of the binding. Obviously they didn't have an officer hang herself, but they did show how it could be done.

MS had injuries on his back as well as his head. Typically head injuries that also have trunk injuries are treated as abuse, not as an injury. I posted the link to that earlier in this thread.

We don't know if there were signs of a struggle that were cleaned up or staged because we don't know precisely when MS was injured, only when XZ called 911 and when help arrived. What we do know is the most puzzling of all - the fact that a scooter was on MS's shin when he was on his back. Doesn't make sense at all.

 

[CDS22]

This man's death was ruled a homicide:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2006-01-01/news/18337263_1_ruben-valentin-stairs-death

He was able to talk, so that's how police knew what happened to him. We know now from MS's AR that he was not able to talk by the time he was treated by the authorities. That makes RZ's claim of MS's last word being "Ocean" all the more unbelievable.

IMO

 

[CDS22]

What is strange is that XZ went to the Urgent Care facility for her injuries and was scheduled to go back for suture check/removal...yet was sent home on a plane before that. I do not think cleaning up glass would injure her leg in that manner. JMO

Found it:

Also listed on Zahau's cell phone logs was an incoming call at 7:09 p.m. on July 12 from Coronado Bay Urgent Care in Imperial Beach.

Rebecca's 13-year-old sister had received stitches in her leg at the urgent care center on Monday, July 11 after cutting herself on glass. The center was calling to confirm a follow-up appointment for Wednesday.

That appointment was canceled because Zahau had already dropped off the teenager at the airport in the afternoon of July 12 for her return flight to Missouri.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

 

[rosemary]

I am RS's size and weigh less than she did. I can easily pick up a 6 year old child, so yes, I think it's possible for a petite woman to do something like that. However, just because something is in the realm of possibility doesn't mean it happened.

I'd rather concentrate on the logistics of how MS was found on the floor, surrounded by 2 balls, a scooter, and a chandelier at his shoulder, than I would on possible scenarios than might or might not have happened. In other words, I'd like to stick with what we know. That's just my two cents.

Fair enough, but like I said, if Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, the main scene of the crime would have been the spot where he had fallen from. It wouldn't have been the spot where he was found lying on.

And if a woman the size of Rebecca (who also walked with a limp according to some reports) could have lifted up a boy the size of Max, would she have been able to restrain him enough so he wouldn't put up a fight? And would she have had the strength to throw a boy his size down from the stairs, with the hand rails as an added obstacle, with enough velocity to make him crash into the chandelier and bring it down with him?

 

[CDS22]

And interesting that RZ didn't want to talk about the accident with Dina's twin sister:

Family members said Rebecca had picked up Romano at a San Diego airport on Monday afternoon, several hours after Max Shacknai's fall down the stairs.

"I just wanted to talk to her about the accident," Romano said. "And so I sent her a text message that said, ‘Hey are you around? I'd like to come by,' and I never heard from her. She never responded to me."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

If it's just an accident and RZ didn't feel guilt, as alleged by her sister, then why not talk about it?

 

[CDS22]

Fair enough, but like I said, if Rebecca had anything to do with Max's fall, the main scene of the crime would have been the spot where he had fallen from. It wouldn't have been the spot where he was found lying on.

And if a woman the size of Rebecca (who also walked with a limp according to some reports) could have lifted up a boy the size of Max, would she have been able to restrain him enough so he wouldn't put up a fight? And would she have had the strength to throw a boy his size down from the stairs, with the hand rails as an added obstacle, with enough velocity to make him crash into the chandelier and bring it down with him?

It's not enough to investigate only where the body was found, but the point from where the person allegedly fell. That's why so many are questioning the report, because we can't understand how MS got the momentum to do everything he was alleged to have done.

RZ was supposed to have been training for a marathon or something, according to her sister, and her gym instructor or trainer called her athletic. She used the stair master and worked out a lot. She was hardly a weakling, so could she have picked up a small child? Sure. However, we've had no proof offered that she did so, nor has anyone else suggested it.

Like I've said, I don't think a 45 lb. boy could bring a chandelier down even if he was swinging from it. I also don't think a child could do the gymnastics necessary to get all the injuries he had.

IMO

 

[rosemary]

Speaking of size and what is and isn't possible, I don't believe it's possible for a 45 lb. boy to bring down a chandelier. I have four chandeliers in my house, and when I was worried about the large one possibly falling and injuring someone, the man who put it in for us proved to me that it was secure by getting up on a ladder and swinging from it. That's what makes this entire thing so strange to me - the chandelier and the scooter.

If one of the most expensive chandeliers in the world could be brought down by a single throw of a shoe, do you honestly think a 45 lb. boy wouldn't be able to after colliding hard on it?

The Middle East’s Most Expensive Chandelier Destroyed by Croc-Throwing Teenager
A Kuwaiti teenager is in some hot water after flying into a shoe-throwing rage and destroying a chandelier worth over $1.8 million.

The teen was shopping at the 360 Mall when, for reasons unclear to investigators (futility of modern life?), he removed his shoe and launched it at the giant orange and red light fixture suspended from the shopping center's cathedral ceiling. Once the shoe hit the chandelier, it detached and fell to the ground, shattering. Upon questioning, the thrower admitted to launching the glass-destroying slipper but said he didn't think the force of the throw would be enough to bring down such a large item. Authorities are considering dropping all charges against him.

 

[SunnieRN]

This is the first I've heard of that. Can you tell me more?

I posted a link from one of the Zahau sisters stating that RZ didn't know what to do about XZ's injuries, and also that RZ told the dog guy her "daughter" was also injured in the same accident. The sister also said that RZ was concerned about XZ's injuries and wanted the sister who was a nurse to treat the wounds. The wounds were described as being on her hands. So if we have an injured leg and injured hands from someone who was allegedly in the shower during MS's fall that no one seemed to witness, well, that's just weird.

What I find strange is that early reports said GS was treated for cuts on her hands. Then they said that XZ was treated for cuts on her legs.

Four independent teams investigated RZ's death. MS didn't have the same benefit.

As far as the re-enactment of RZ's suicide, they police did offer a live re-enactment of the binding. Obviously they didn't have an officer hang herself, but they did show how it could be done.

MS had injuries on his back as well as his head. Typically head injuries that also have trunk injuries are treated as abuse, not as an injury. I posted the link to that earlier in this thread.

We don't know if there were signs of a struggle that were cleaned up or staged because we don't know precisely when MS was injured, only when XZ called 911 and when help arrived. What we do know is the most puzzling of all - the fact that a scooter was on MS's shin when he was on his back. Doesn't make sense at all.

I still can not understand how Max fell onto the chandelier, rolled to his back to hit the bannister, than rolled again to do a face plant and get his injuries in the nrck region and face.

As for signs of a struggle. Max's accident was looked at twice with the same conclusion. Accident.

And interesting that RZ didn't want to talk about the accident with Dina's twin sister:



http://www.cbs8.com/story/15485069/records-reveal-final-cell-phone-calls-to-rebecca-zahau

If it's just an accident and RZ didn't feel guilt, as alleged by her sister, then why not talk about it?

It doesn't say that she didn't want to talk to DS sister NR. It said a text came to the phone at that time, not that it was read. That was quite awhile after Rebecca and her sister were finished talking and texting. I would think that between Max's accident, shuttling people around, bringing JS clothes and food, emotional stress worrying about Max, JS and her sister, that she was most likely exhausted and that is why she didn't respond to the text or answer JS call, for that matter.