Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

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  • #161
  • #162
If only it was in the hospital's power to keep Jahi alive.
 
  • #163
I think I know why the family wants the evaluation by Dr. Paul Byrne:

"Dr. Byrne has authored articles against euthanasia, abortion, and "brain death" in medical journals, law literature and lay press."

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne
 
  • #164
I think I know why the family wants the evaluation by Dr. Paul Byrne:

"Dr. Byrne has authored articles against euthanasia, abortion, and "brain death" in medical journals, law literature and lay press."

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne

Including

Beyond Brain Death: The Case Against Brain Based Criteria for Human Death

Front Cover
M. Potts, P.A. Byrne, Richard G. Nilges, R.G. Nilges
Springer, Nov 30, 2001 - Law - 276 pages
0 Reviews
Beyond Brain Death offers a provocative challenge to one of the most widely accepted conclusions of contemporary bioethics: the position that brain death marks the death of the human person. Eleven chapters by physicians, philosophers, and theologians present the case against brain-based criteria for human death. Each author believes that this position calls into question the moral acceptability of the transplantation of unpaired vital organs from brain-dead patients who have continuing function of the circulatory system. One strength of the book is its international approach to the question: contributors are from the United States, the United Kingdom, Liechtenstein, and Japan. This book will appeal to a wide audience, including physicians and other health care professionals, philosophers, theologians, medical sociologists, and social workers.
« Less

http://books.google.com/books/about/Beyond_Brain_Death.html?id=GZ7mOs3Rpi0C&redir_esc=y




http://www.christorchaos.com/Dr.PaulByrneonBrainDeath.html

His position seems to be that brain death is not true death because some of the vital functions are still working and the ventilation and heartbeat keep the body from decomposing.
 
  • #165
I've personally worked with-in therapy- stroke patients who demonstrated signs of brain recovery 5 years after the onset of their severe strokes- so never say never! Terri Schiavo's husband took her off life support prematurely, she still had a fighting chance.

Well I don't know if I would say that taking a person off life support after 15 years is "premature." But Terri Schiavo wasn't brain dead, like this little girl. Brain damage and brain stem death are two different things. Do you believe a person can recover when their brain has totally flat lined and there is no function in the actual brain stem itself?

I think Terri's case is different (and her husband should have let her parents care for her). However, I think the hospital may have messed up here and why can't the family be allowed to take her home on life support? Or put her in a hospice? It's always about cost but it's unlikely this little girl will last too long. I get why the family feel the way they do. She is warm and her heart does beat so to them, she is alive. Frankly, I have a hard time with the concept that she's not, myself.
 
  • #166
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/20454363/mum-pleads-to-keep-brain-dead-daughter-alive/

Hospitals do a barrage of sophisticated tests to determine brain death, said Dr. Cristobal Barrios, an associate professor and a trauma and critical care surgeon at the University of California, Irvine. He is not involved in Jahi's care and spoke about general hospital protocols.

The tests include touching a patient's cornea to elicit a blink, moving a breathing tube to stimulate a gag reflex, tickling the back of the throat to bring on a cough, and applying pressure or pain.

If the patient fails to respond to all of those tests, doctors remove the breathing tube for a few minutes. If there is any brain activity, the patient should begin breathing within a few minutes, he said.

In some cases, doctors will also draw a blood sample, add radioactive tags and re-inject it into the body to track where it flows. If the blood doesn't flow to the brain, Barrios said, there is no brain activity.

Generally, two teams of specialists must run the tests and determine independently that the patient is brain dead, he said. At UC Irvine, those evaluations must take place 12 hours apart if the patient is a child.
 
  • #167
My 18-year-old daughter had a tonsillectomy on December 16 and I've been freaking out the whole time. She's on day 8 post op now and is recovering well, but I'll be glad to get past day 10.
 
  • #168
Well I don't know if I would say that taking a person off life support after 15 years is "premature." But Terri Schiavo wasn't brain dead, like this little girl. Brain damage and brain stem death are two different things. Do you believe a person can recover when their brain has totally flat lined and there is no function in the actual brain stem itself?

I think Terri's case is different (and her husband should have let her parents care for her). However, I think the hospital may have messed up here and why can't the family be allowed to take her home on life support? Or put her in a hospice? It's always about cost but it's unlikely this little girl will last too long. I get why the family feel the way they do. She is warm and her heart does beat so to them, she is alive. Frankly, I have a hard time with the concept that she's not, myself.

It's my understanding that hospice facilities provide care for those that are terminally ill and in most cases doctors have given them 6 months or less to live. Hospice provides care to keep the patient comfortable and manage their pain. I don't believe they use life support measures. There are certain criteria that has to be met to be considered for hospice care.

As far as the family taking her home, she will still require care and it may be difficult in her circumstances to find medical professionals to provide that care.

If the outcome of all of this is to keep her on life support, I do feel the best place for her would be at home with family.

eta: without seeing the medical records, which according to the articles, the family will not allow to be released, I can't question whether the hospital did anything wrong or not.
 
  • #169
I'm curious about the "suctioning" of the blood the family members were doing. Is it possible they thought they were being helpful and started doing this prior to the bleeding event leading to the cardiac arrest? Thus contributing to heavy bleeding?

Very, very, sad event. I believe the mother is just hoping against all hope that this will all go away and that her daughter will wake up smiling. I am quite sure she was informed the bleeding was a possible complication. I was terrified when my son had a tonsillectomy because of this possible complication. (Instead he had a total asthma attack in recovery and then broke out in hives all over his body.)

A young eight year old girl in my son's elementary school did die from this exact complication. She had already been discharged from the hospital. Unfortunately, it does happen.
 
  • #170
Well I don't know if I would say that taking a person off life support after 15 years is "premature." But Terri Schiavo wasn't brain dead, like this little girl. Brain damage and brain stem death are two different things. Do you believe a person can recover when their brain has totally flat lined and there is no function in the actual brain stem itself?

I think Terri's case is different (and her husband should have let her parents care for her). However, I think the hospital may have messed up here and why can't the family be allowed to take her home on life support? Or put her in a hospice? It's always about cost but it's unlikely this little girl will last too long. I get why the family feel the way they do. She is warm and her heart does beat so to them, she is alive. Frankly, I have a hard time with the concept that she's not, myself.

I agree that Terri's family should have been given custody of her. After all, her husband had already moved on and had 2 kids with another woman by the time he decided to unplug Terri.

I read up on the care required for a brain dead person and it was stated that sometimes it takes two fulltime nurses because these patients require intervention for everything such as blood pressure and other critical issues. They can crash very quickly.

I don't know that any other hospital or nursing home or even hospice would take her as a patient because of the level of care required and the fact that no insurance or coverage will cover her expenses because she is "dead". Plus they also don't admit "dead" patients into their facilities.

This was a bit astounding to me but I feel that it must have been put into place to help people accept that this is a futile case and the families have to accept this and not continue to cling to false hope and use up vital resources on a patient that has no chance of recovering and will only deteriorate.

Given the prospect, expense and likely outcome, why would an institution be willing to take Jahi as a patient, the liabilities far outweigh any possible benefit for anyone but Jahi's family and as we see, they simply do not accept the realities of this situation.
 
  • #171
  • #172
I'm curious about the "suctioning" of the blood the family members were doing. Is it possible they thought they were being helpful and started doing this prior to the bleeding event leading to the cardiac arrest? Thus contributing to heavy bleeding?

Very, very, sad event. I believe the mother is just hoping against all hope that this will all go away and that her daughter will wake up smiling. I am quite sure she was informed the bleeding was a possible complication. I was terrified when my son had a tonsillectomy because of this possible complication. (Instead he had a total asthma attack in recovery and then broke out in hives all over his body.)

A young eight year old girl in my son's elementary school did die from this exact complication. She had already been discharged from the hospital. Unfortunately, it does happen.

Thanks so much for your added information. It was eye-opening to say the least.

I am not only curious about the suctioning, but about the lack of care from hospital employees while this child was bleeding out. It seems very odd that no one was on the floor within calling distance so soon after surgery was performed. It also seems strange that family members--or the patient herself--would be expected to suction her own blood. Odder still that not one member of the hospital staff would see these unauthorized people performing medical procedures and not monitor what they were doing while calling security. Even though it may be that one or more family members work at other hospitals, I don't think that hospital staff would have known anyone had any real expertise. Something just isn't sitting right with me about this aspect.

In your experience, aren't nurses and other staff supposed to check on post surgery patients' medical status every few minutes both before and after the anaesthetic wears off?

Before reading your post, BFF, I would have had few qualms about my own child, or grandchild, having such an operation. After considering what you've said, I would be very wary of the procedure.
 
  • #173
'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

This is not even two years old.

jmo

Here is another:

Man makes “miraculous” recovery from brain death after accident

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ous_recovery_from_brain_death_after_accident/



The first story seems a bit odd to me, I'm not sure if everything has been accurately reported. The article says he was in a medically induced coma and then a doctor examined him and found brain waves and it was then that they decided to attempt to bring him out of his coma.
This makes no sense to me. Medically induced coma means that he was given anesthetic agents to keep him unconscious, and all the guidelines for diagnosing brain death that I have seen state that the patient can't be under the influence of anesthetic drugs or other CNS depressants at the time of testing. If they hadn't even tried to bring him out of the anesthesia before Dr. Piper determined he was not brain dead how could they have diagnosed brain death? And if they thought that he was brain dead, what would they have needed to anesthetize him for?
 
  • #174
'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

This is not even two years old.

jmo

Here is another:

Man makes “miraculous” recovery from brain death after accident

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ous_recovery_from_brain_death_after_accident/

Here is a article written by a neurologist addressing one of the people in your links.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brain-dead/

Although I see these stories on the internet, I have not found one where the medical records are revealed, which would be necessary to in order to provide an educated opinion on the facts in these cases.
 
  • #175
From the outset, I have read numerous conflicting reports in MSM. The family is quoted as saying in one article that the bleeding occurred for a half hour and then another reports it as being hours. In nursing documentation, there is rarely a "spin" put on anything. Facts, observations and data are usually what is recorded.

As far as taking Jahi home, to hospice or a nursing home, I don't know what type of facilities there are in CA that can accommodate pediatric ventilated, brain dead patients. If she only requires a vent and no other medications, it might be possible if their insurance would pay for skilled nursing care.

The biggest hindrance to understanding this case, is the lack of concrete facts, largely because the family has prevented the hospital and doctors from responding to their allegations. I have read every article that has been linked here and still don't have a very clear understanding of what happened.

There is a doctor from Stanford that examined Jahi today and his opinion will be given to the judge tomorrow. The article said he was a pediatric oncologist? Not a neurologist? Or am I reading this wrong?
 
  • #176
Winkfield told CNN Monday that she's seen recent improvements in her daughter's condition. A hospital monitor suggests her daughter is trying to breathe on her own, she said.
"They told me without your brain, you can't take your own breath," Winkfield said. "Well, she's trying, so that means something's working."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/23/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/
 
  • #177
I feel sorry and bad for this family and I get it I really do they don't want to let her go but there has not been any brain activity since this happened even the trying to breath if that's really the case its muscle memory it would only last for a very short time I really think they could be saving who knows a few young peoples lives as a organ doner and that's what I think should happen but man its so hard I really feel for this family..
 
  • #178
Doctor chosen to do the latest brain-death examination
http://neurology.stanford.edu/childneurology/ourteam.html

Dr. Paul Graham Fisher is Professor of Neurology, Pediatrics, and by courtesy, Neurosurgery and Human Biology; Division Chief of Child Neurology; the Beirne Family Professor of Pediatric Neuro-Oncology; The Bing Director of the Program in Human Biology; and Director of the Center for Brain and Behavior at Stanford University and Lucile Salter Packard Children’s Hospital. Dr. Fisher received his B.A. at Stanford and M.D. at the University of California, San Francisco, before completing residencies in pediatrics and neurology at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and then a fellowship in neuro-oncology at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia and Johns Hopkins. He also obtained a master’s degree in epidemiology at Johns Hopkins University.
 
  • #179
I really hate that this is happening at Christmastime. It just makes it all so much more painful, IMO. Continuing to pray for peace for Jahi's family so that they may let her go.
 
  • #180
'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html
This is not even two years old.
jmo ....
SBM

mikkismom
Also from your link.
"In a statement, University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust said: "The injury to Steven's brain was extremely critical and several CT scans of the head showed almost irreversible damage.
"It is extremely rare that a patient with having suffered such extensive trauma to the brain should survive.
"However, critical care and other specialist teams continued to support his systems through his critical period and we were delighted to see Steven recover and make progress against all the odds." BBM UBM

The hosp's stmt says nothing about 'brain dead.'
The headline about 4 doctors saying he was brain dead seems to have come from the tabloid, known to use dramatic license, esp in headlines. Consider the source.

And another part of the article stated that a doctor detected faint brain waves, so again, not brain dead, so not comparable to Jahi.

JM2cts and I may be wrong
Repeating most of this from my post a few days ago about this 'Recovery.' :seeya:
 
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