Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[AddieBoo]

A grand jury true bills isn't a trial verdict. It mainly establishes that the prosecution provided enough evidence to bring it to trial. The evidence wasn't shown to or countered by the defense. And probable cause is the lowest legal standard. A grand jury gives true bills 95% of the time, so it's an extremely easy threshold to reach. And yet in this case they didn't for fourteen out of eighteen counts.



By that logic the grand jury also rejected the theory that either Patsy or John killed her. Moreso for the Ramseys, since there was never a count for the unknown intruder that the grand jury deliberated on. Yet they didn't sign true bills for any Ramsey as a murderer.

Hmmmmm.. wonder why that was?

“There was never count for the unknown intruder that the Grand Jury deliberated on “

Ok. How are you stating information from documents that are legally sealed?

Y’all keep thinking there were only 4 counts the GJ signed off on…,
But I would maintain a wait and see. No one knows what the remaining pages hold. That may be a conclusion in any other judiciary - but Boulder Colorado is not usual.
Not usual in any way with this case.

You may want to reconfigure your consideration of those indictments. Consider the GJ couldn’t conclude who murdered JB so the GJ named both in child abuse leading to murder and accessory.

One thing the GJ seems to be saying is both John and Patsy knew/know the killer, helped the killer commit the crime in accessory and that the murder was planned with the intent to kill. (First degree murder)

 

[AddieBoo]

I would really like JR to answer the question that IF HE WANTED HIS CHILD back alive.....why didn't he make even the slightest attempt to follow the instructions on the ransom letter????

Got that right!! Amen!
Would love love love to see John Ramsey take the stand with some SOB prosecutor acolyte from Alan Dershowitz officer….

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I would really like JR to answer the question that IF HE WANTED HIS CHILD back alive.....why didn't he make even the slightest attempt to follow the instructions on the ransom letter????

An intriguing an excellent question @ShadyLady ….. maybe someone knew that they need not do so IMO. MOO

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Hmmmmm.. wonder why that was?

“There was never count for the unknown intruder that the Grand Jury deliberated on “

There were nine counts for each patent. The grand jury wasn't empanelled to seek indictments against some unidentified person.

Ok. How are you stating information from documents that are legally sealed?

There would not be prepared charges against unknown actors.

Y’all keep thinking there were only 4 counts the GJ signed off on…,

Because that is literally what the judge who unsealed them said.

But I would maintain a wait and see. No one knows what the remaining pages hold. That may be a conclusion in any other judiciary - but Boulder Colorado is not usual.
Not usual in any way with this case.

The remaining pages, if ever released, will simply contain charges against the Ramseys that the grand jury didn't feel there were probable cause for.

You may want to reconfigure your consideration of those indictments. Consider the GJ couldn’t conclude who murdered JB so the GJ named both in child abuse leading to murder and accessory.

That is likely true, weaker charges so they can get them for something. This is what legal experts also think happened. But for Hunter, Kane and the others it was clear they didn't have evidence to prevail at trial - something even the grand jurors agreed on.

One thing the GJ seems to be saying is both John and Patsy knew/know the killer, helped the killer commit the crime in accessory and that the murder was planned with the intent to kill. (First degree murder)

It's not what the grand jury "seems to be saying". It's what they felt the prosecution had provided enough evidence for to rise to the level of probable cause.

 

[AddieBoo]

A grand jury true bills isn't a trial verdict. It mainly establishes that the prosecution provided enough evidence to bring it to trial. The evidence wasn't shown to or countered by the defense. And probable cause is the lowest legal standard. A grand jury gives true bills 95% of the time, so it's an extremely easy threshold to reach. And yet in this case they didn't for fourteen out of eighteen counts.



By that logic the grand jury also rejected the theory that either Patsy or John killed her. Moreso for the Ramseys, since there was never a count for the unknown intruder that the grand jury deliberated on. Yet they didn't sign true bills for any Ramsey as a murderer.

Again, the public does not have information about the contents of those remaining pages.

The Grand Jury implied the Ramsey’s knew the murderer. Helped that person by keeping JB in a dangerous environment and assisting in cover up. These indictments were associated with a first degree murder. Planned murder with intent to kill.

You can dilly dally till the cows come home. But these four indictments are extremely serious and do not exonerate the Ramsey’s for the murder of their daughter in any way.
The GJ is saying the Ramsey’s had full knowledge of the events leading up to the murder of JonBenet and even though, it is assumed, loved their daughter dearly, they helped the person (s) responsible to evade justice and did nothing to protect her from a gruesome, tortureous death,
And that is the legacy John Ramsey is left with.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Again, the public does not have information about the contents of those remaining pages.

The Grand Jury implied the Ramsey’s knew the murderer. Helped that person by keeping JB in a dangerous environment and assisting in cover up. These indictments were associated with a first degree murder. Planned murder with intent to kill.

You can dilly dally till the cows come home. But these four indictments are extremely serious and do not exonerate the Ramsey’s for the murder of their daughter in any way.
The GJ is saying the Ramsey’s had full knowledge of the events leading up to the murder of JonBenet and even though, it is assumed, loved their daughter dearly, they helped the person (s) responsible to evade justice and did nothing to protect her from a gruesome, tortureous death,
And that is the legacy John Ramsey is left with.

Agree with you entirely @AddieBoo … and oh how I wish that further evidence collection, testimony, depositions, etc., were allowed to proceed to investigate the case further. And to proceed against the charges that should have been laid by then DA Alex hunters office. Those based on the initial GJ indictments.

It would be very interesting to see what additional information was developed in that process. A process that might have led to other charges and answers to the long unanswered questions in this sordid case.

Four people entered the residence that late evening and early morning. And by the next morning only three remained. The answers also lie there IMO. MOO

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Again, the public does not have information about the contents of those remaining pages.

We know they are charges against the Ramseys that the grand jury didn't agree on. What charges, we don't know. Though if murder wasn't one of them, I'd be surprised.

The Grand Jury implied the Ramsey’s knew the murderer. Helped that person by keeping JB in a dangerous environment and assisting in cover up. These indictments were associated with a first degree murder. Planned murder with intent to kill.

You can dilly dally till the cows come home. But these four indictments are extremely serious and do not exonerate the Ramsey’s for the murder of their daughter in any way.

Of course they don't exonerate the Ramseys. I keep trying to explain that they're grand jury true bills. They have nothing to do with trial verdicts, guilt or innocence. It's why saying the grand jury "rejected the intruder theory" is nonsensical.

The GJ is saying the Ramsey’s had full knowledge of the events leading up to the murder of JonBenet and even though, it is assumed, loved their daughter dearly, they helped the person (s) responsible to evade justice and did nothing to protect her from a gruesome, tortureous death,

Again, you don't seem to understand that the grand jury is not saying this. They're saying that this rose to the level of probable cause.

And that is the legacy John Ramsey is left with.

A couple of true bills that were so lacking on evidence the prosecutors didn't take them to trial. Seems bearable.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

“Intent to kill” Premeditation. That’s a wallop from the GJ! They heard everything…..
Whatever those indictments mean they were attached to first degree murder. I could be flippant saying that wording/charges are the most difficult to prosecute…? but the jury majority agreed. I had been inclined to believe (or want to believe) it was an accident ….blah blah blah… but to me, this being the most severe charge, indicate something far more ….(fill in the blank here)
WTF.

I think many people started out wanting to believe it was an accident.
Questions as to why a true accident would need to be covered up have always plagued me. The True Bills
took accident off the table for me and then the why why why questions take over.
I do put weight on the GJ decision.
No. It's not a prosecutorial out come but as we sit here and type our theories( often influenced by jobs and life experiences) the GJ was presented with months of information to base their decision on. They were far more equipped with information to base their theory on than most of us here I would say.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

There were nine counts for each patent. The grand jury wasn't empanelled to seek indictments against some unidentified person.



There would not be prepared charges against unknown actors.



Because that is literally what the judge who unsealed them said.



The remaining pages, if ever released, will simply contain charges against the Ramseys that the grand jury didn't feel there were probable cause for.



That is likely true, weaker charges so they can get them for something. This is what legal experts also think happened. But for Hunter, Kane and the others it was clear they didn't have evidence to prevail at trial - something even the grand jurors agreed on.



It's not what the grand jury "seems to be saying". It's what they felt the prosecution had provided enough evidence for to rise to the level of probable cause.

Of course they didn't.
They did not find the intruder even existed despite Lou Smiths testimony.
Unless you are an insider, you have no idea what the remaining charges were any more than anyone else.
The records are sealed, no one can speak with authority on the matter.

 

[AddieBoo]

An intriguing an excellent question @ShadyLady ….. maybe someone knew that they need not do so IMO. MOO

Agree with you entirely @AddieBoo … and oh how I wish that further evidence collection, testimony, depositions, etc., were allowed to proceed to investigate the case further. And to proceed against the charges that should have been laid by then DA Alex hunters office. Those based on the initial GJ indictments.

It would be very interesting to see what additional information was developed in that process. A process that might have led to other charges and answers to the long unanswered questions in this sordid case.

Four people entered the residence that late evening and early morning. And by the next morning only three remained. The answers also lie there IMO. MOO

Agree.
This case should have proceeded and been tried, but with a new DA.
And the AG should have investigated what the heck was going on. But no….

What would it take to get this investigation back on track and actively in the justice system. The state of limitations doesn’t expire for a reason.

 

[fcavanaugh]

I’ve been following this case from the beginning and have always been in the RDI camp only not so much the theory that BDI, and please forgive me if the following has already been brought up as I haven’t been on JB’s threads for awhile, but does anyone think the following theory is viable:

JR did everything and convinced PR that BR did it, forced PR to write the ‘ransom note’/dictated what to write to her, as he convinced her they had to cover for their remaining child, told her that he (JR) was going to remove JB’s body from the house and bury her somewhere and explain to cops that he left the house to deliver the ransom money but the perps/small foreign faction never showed with an ‘alive’ JB. That initially PR agreed to go along with JR’s plan to ‘save their remaining child’ but then after the hours passed with more time to think, PR panicked/freaked out about JB’s body being left out in the wilderness (not having a proper burial) and decided to call the cops while JR was upstairs showering or whatever that morning and then immediately called the friends over because she was afraid of what JR would do to her when he found out she ignored their very own note’s instructions and called the cops as didn’t want to be alone with him before the cops showed up?

IMHOO

ETA- moved this post to a different JBR thread after realizing this probably isn’t the correct thread for it. Will leave it here as just noticed it was quoted by someone, ugh apologies.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Of course they didn't.
They did not find the intruder even existed despite Lou Smiths testimony.

The grand jury wasn't empanelled to charge an intruder. If Smit's testimony (one day out of thirteen months) did anything, perhaps it ensured most of the counts against the Ramseys couldn't go through.

Unless you are an insider, you have no idea what the remaining charges were any more than anyone else.
The records are sealed, no one can speak with authority on the matter.

Like I said, no one knows what the unsigned charges were. But they were all charges against the Ramseys.

 

[ShadyLady]

I’ve been following this case from the beginning and have always been in the RDI camp only not so much the theory that BDI, and please forgive me if the following has already been brought up as I haven’t been on JB’s threads for awhile, but does anyone think the following theory is viable:

JR did everything and convinced PR that BR did it, forced PR to write the ‘ransom note’/dictated what to write to her, as he convinced her they had to cover for their remaining child, told her that he (JR) was going to remove JB’s body from the house and bury her somewhere and explain to cops that he left the house to deliver the ransom money but the perps/small foreign faction never showed with an ‘alive’ JB. That initially PR agreed to go along with JR’s plan to ‘save their remaining child’ but then after the hours passed with more time to think, PR panicked/freaked out about JB’s body being left out in the wilderness (not having a proper burial) and decided to call the cops while JR was upstairs showering or whatever that morning and then immediately called the friends over because she was afraid of what JR would do to her when he found out she ignored their very own note’s instructions and called the cops as didn’t want to be alone with him before the cops showed up?

IMHOO

Very interesting....killer was in that house. For sure. And per LE, they observed no support between the two. Very odd. IMO

JR always looks like he is smirking to me. His mail was more important than the ransom letter.

 

[AddieBoo]

We know they are charges against the Ramseys that the grand jury didn't agree on. What charges, we don't know. Though if murder wasn't one of them, I'd be surprised.



Of course they don't exonerate the Ramseys. I keep trying to explain that they're grand jury true bills. They have nothing to do with trial verdicts, guilt or innocence. It's why saying the grand jury "rejected the intruder theory" is nonsensical.



Again, you don't seem to understand that the grand jury is not saying this. They're saying that this rose to the level of probable cause.



A couple of true bills that were so lacking on evidence the prosecutors didn't take them to trial. Seems bearable.

The four indictments, forced to be made public, are what we got so far.
The Grand Jury agreed on those four counts which put the spotlight of responsibility on the Ramsey’s.
Not on an intruder. The Ramsey’s.
They concluded that they both were responsible for the death of their child . And probable cause or not, the message is that these jurors sat for 13 months with full subpoena power and hearing both sides, prosecution and defense, probable cause or not did not exonerate the Ramsey’s for their daughters murder.

How do you know these true bills were lacking in evidence? It’s not “prosecutors” it is one prosecutor.
Alex Hunter. He had developed a personal relationship with the Ramsey’s that defies any and all professional standards. If anything the AG should have conducted a full investigation about how Alex Hunter et al. conducted this case. He simply had no interest, for whatever reason, to find justice for JonBenet Ramsey.

The indictments remain as a public record from a jury who deliberated 13 months who did not exonerate the Ramsey’s and in fact handed down four very serious, unfathomable, charges that they agreed had enough evidence for probable cause.

It will not stand that just because this case has been out litigated - so far - and was swimming against an enormous tide of political pressure- the case disappears… the Ramsey’s don’t have their day in court and face a judge and jury just because the powers that be have made sure this case never comes to trial. That the horrendous death of this little girl will not find justice because of some unknown political reason.

But those jurors voted, And they are public record that, so far, is just entering, questioned and debated on the social arena. And the court of public opinion is not persuaded to the innocence of the Ramsey’s. And public opinion can move mountains.
MOO

 

[AddieBoo]

The grand jury wasn't empanelled to charge an intruder. If Smit's testimony (one day out of thirteen months) did anything, perhaps it ensured most of the counts against the Ramseys couldn't go through.



Like I said, no one knows what the unsigned charges were. But they were all charges against the Ramseys.

Schmidt wasn’t the only Ramsey defense witness called. Handwriting experts…,

 

[AddieBoo]

I’ve been following this case from the beginning and have always been in the RDI camp only not so much the theory that BDI, and please forgive me if the following has already been brought up as I haven’t been on JB’s threads for awhile, but does anyone think the following theory is viable:

JR did everything and convinced PR that BR did it, forced PR to write the ‘ransom note’/dictated what to write to her, as he convinced her they had to cover for their remaining child, told her that he (JR) was going to remove JB’s body from the house and bury her somewhere and explain to cops that he left the house to deliver the ransom money but the perps/small foreign faction never showed with an ‘alive’ JB. That initially PR agreed to go along with JR’s plan to ‘save their remaining child’ but then after the hours passed with more time to think, PR panicked/freaked out about JB’s body being left out in the wilderness (not having a proper burial) and decided to call the cops while JR was upstairs showering or whatever that morning and then immediately called the friends over because she was afraid of what JR would do to her when he found out she ignored their very own note’s instructions and called the cops as didn’t want to be alone with him before the cops showed up?

IMHOO

ETA- moved this post to a different JBR thread after realizing this probably isn’t the correct thread. Leaving it here as noticed it was quoted by someone, ugh apologies.

I wouldn’t put anything past John Ramsey. He left JAR suitcase and its contents in the basement under the “getaway” window….

 

[AddieBoo]

I think many people started out wanting to believe it was an accident.
Questions as to why a true accident would need to be covered up have always plagued me. The True Bills
took accident off the table for me and then the why why why questions take over.
I do put weight on the GJ decision.
No. It's not a prosecutorial out come but as we sit here and type our theories( often influenced by jobs and life experiences) the GJ was presented with months of information to base their decision on. They were far more equipped with information to base their theory on than most of us here I would say.

Me too .
I was coming off Wecht’s book. The GJ true bills gave me whip lash. Especially the “murder in the first degree” association.
What the heck did the GJ hear? I do put weight on their decision as an outcome from intense deliberation from jurors who heard both sides.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The four indictments, forced to be made public, are what we got so far.
The Grand Jury agreed on those four counts which put the spotlight of responsibility on the Ramsey’s.
Not on an intruder. The Ramsey’s.
They concluded that they both were responsible for the death of their child . And probable cause or not, the message is that these jurors sat for 13 months with full subpoena power and hearing both sides, prosecution and defense, probable cause or not did not exonerate the Ramsey’s for their daughters murder.

How do you know these true bills were lacking in evidence? It’s not “prosecutors” it is one prosecutor.
Alex Hunter. He had developed a personal relationship with the Ramsey’s that defies any and all professional standards. If anything the AG should have conducted a full investigation about how Alex Hunter et al. conducted this case. He simply had no interest, for whatever reason, to find justice for JonBenet Ramsey.

The indictments remain as a public record from a jury who deliberated 13 months who did not exonerate the Ramsey’s and in fact handed down four very serious, unfathomable, charges that they agreed had enough evidence for probable cause.

It will not stand that just because this case has been out litigated - so far - and was swimming against an enormous tide of political pressure- the case disappears… the Ramsey’s don’t have their day in court and face a judge and jury just because the powers that be have made sure this case never comes to trial. That the horrendous death of this little girl will not find justice because of some unknown political reason.

But those jurors voted, And they are public record that, so far, is just entering, questioned and debated on the social arena. And the court of public opinion is not persuaded to the innocence of the Ramsey’s. And public opinion can move mountains.
MOO

Excellent post based in fact.
I think you observation on the social arena is exactly what is driving this train. It's only a matter of time before someone speaks out. I'm surprised no one has. Occasionally, on different forums you will here stories that may or may not be true. If I had guilty knowledge or was guilty, I'd be plenty worried. Folks like us only offer up theories but without a doubt people know stuff!

 

[ShadyLady]

Me too .
I was coming off Wecht’s book. The GJ true bills gave me whip lash. Especially the “murder in the first degree” association.
What the heck did the GJ hear? I do put weight on their decision as an outcome from intense deliberation from jurors who heard both sides.

I did not read that book...what were true bills?

 

[AddieBoo]

I did not read that book...what were true bills?

The indictments the Grand Jury signed off on.