Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Slebby]

In my opinion, there has been a leap from “bad bathroom wiping habits” to fecal incontinence. Other than the report of a “grapefruit sized” poop in her bed, was there other instances? When I hear “incontinence” I am picturing an inability to hold it, which is different from “not wiping well”.
I am also going to go out on a limb and say I also don’t believe JBR died because she asked other people to wipe her tushy.

Imo

 

[Tower]

I just watched an interview on Youtube with a Grand Juror on the case. It tells a lot. He stated out clearly that they did not buy the intruder theory presented by Lou, and believed the 3 handwriting experts who believed the ransom note was most probably written by Patsy. They left no room for the idea that someone else outside of the house did this crime.

They had the opportunity to visit the house. They had a chance to see and hear about evidence that we never have. They based their conclusions on the evidence and facts.

So I believe the jurors on this case - it was an inside job.

It is illegal for the GJ to discuss this case. Who is interviewing jurors? I can’t find anything on YouTube showing a grand juror being interviewed, but they could be lying, as this case is so sensational that anyone could be making these claims. I’m surprised CO courts would not seek to prosecute a grand juror who sat for an interview, especially on such a high-profile case.

 

[4Wren6]

Patsy developing her beauty queen resume doesn't preclude her being "smart", or even dumb for that matter. Its a sideline interest. Plenty of dumb women have managed to get college degrees too. As a university prof & founder of our school's first "Returning Student" organization, i saw women with ACT scores below 15 that graduated. Its up to their employers to vet them carefully after they fulfill their degree requirements. There were plenty of "smart" women of Patsy's time that noticed that well-to-do successful men quite often valued beauty queen wives above "smart" wives, especially in the southern culture of that time. I can't seem to find mention of Patsy's professional work history at any of the bio sites, nor how she and JR met & their courting history. Can anyone point the way with that?

On Fleet White: I've seen some here fiercely claim FW simply could not have committed any level of sexual abuse at all because he was an all around good man who had a good wife and raised good children. In my earliest career as a social worker, I can tell you that our worst abusers were at both opposite extremes of the "success" spectrum with meth head alcoholics at one end and pillar of the community at the other. Religious leaders were quite common as were civic leaders. Our top purveyer of under-age prostitution turned out to be the guy on the front page of the paper handing over a huge donation check to the local hospital. The next most prolific one was the owner of the most successful insurance company in town who kept a "playroom" upstairs at his office building. As a young career person being responsible for an emergency shelter for adolescent girls, I could tell you stories that would change your innocent view that people who do good things couldn't possibly be "turned funny" sexually.

Even if I knew Fleet White personally, even if we ALL knew FW personally, none of us knows what he might do in any particular private opportunity. I'm not accusing him of a single thing & I credit him highly for being successful in business, having a good marriage, raising good children. But I've never been in the bathroom with him either when he's wiping a 6 year old precocious beauty queen's butt. Nor with JBR's own father. Nor with her brother, or brother's friends. Or Patsy either for that matter. I served as court ordered supervisor for visitations for a mother convicted of *sexually* abusing her 2 toddler children, one male, one female. Deviancy has no boundaries, especially as to a "success" spectrum in any category: income, educational, or professional. These are generally VERY well hidden private crimes. My best friend was sexually abused by her own college professor father which I never ever knew or suspected until she was an independent grown woman. Gosh, that nice successful man who raised 2 successful kids even "very generously" invited me to live with them while finishing my first college degree (while his own daughter was out of state at school). I sure saw that differently after I learned he was a secretive pedophile!!

SOMEONE sexually abused JBR, chronically the reports say. The Grand Jury believed there was enough EVIDENCE to charge the Ramseys. That's all we know, no more, no less. No one is above suspension, and for that I am truly sorry for the innocents who live under a cloud of suspicion. Hoping this crime will be solved one day soon and exonerate all those who well deserve it.

I’ve often wonder if it’s possible BR had been a victim of SA himself and perhaps turned around and abused his sister.

I know people don’t like to think about children abusing other children, but unfortunately it happens. Statistically this is true, but I also k ow because it happened to me first hand.

Usually the abusive child, is being abused by someone else, and turns back the abuse on someone weaker as a means to cope with what is happening to them.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Well, Patsy herself did not *choose* a STEM oriented career for herself, did she? She chose a major that is primarily speaking and writing. I'm struggling to understand why you've convinced yourself Patsy was STEM material and why that's important for you.

I've not seen what Patsy did professionally to support herself after she finished her major in journalism. Do you know? That might cast some light on her abilities beyond turning class work in on time, passing tests, and paying fees. Why Atlanta after college? Did a job take her there? I'd truly love to know more of Patsy beyond just the limited view of her parenting, social life, and housekeeping. I do understand there's much more to Patsy than that, I just can't find it. I'd love to get a feel for her from those who knew her best and a history of her professional work and independent life before JR and during their courtship. Please share what you know.

According to patsy’s 1997 interview with Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo, Patsy won miss west Virginia in 1977, she won a $2000 scholarship and went on to graduate from university in West Virginia, moved to Atlanta and stated working for McCann Erickson advertising agency in 1979. She married John Ramsey in 1980. She later worked for Hayes computers.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Th

This is cursive writing not printing.
Of course they look different
They are different styles of writing.
You would expect different letter formation. .My print writing and cursive writing are very very different.

There’s not a lot available on the internet. I took the time to find something for you, if you’re not happy with it, look it up yourself!

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I'd like to add to my concerns and questions about JBR's fecal incontinence at the age of 6. Having adults wipe their butts is something toddlers come out of infancy as feeling "normal" for their routine caregivers. As they move through the developmental stages of toilet training and maturing, they eventually learn to wipe themselves, flush, pull their own pants up, wash their hands. By the age of anywhere from 3-4 mostdevelop a natural modesty and independence that leads them to want to do these things themselves. That stage is followed by a general embarrassment at anyone else being that intimately involved in their bathrooming and private parts, certainly by the age of 6.

JbR apparently lacked that natural modesty and embarrassment. In fact, she would *ask* to have her private parts attended to. She seemed to accept fecal incontinence as normal. I'm wondering if she ever was embarrassed at having to have her panties changed while playing at friends' houses and having fecally soiled panties returned to her mother and beingngiven panties that belinged to her friends. None of that is normal, at least at the age of 6.

I think I'll leave it right there for now. As a social worker, this would have been noted, highlighted, and handed over to professional counselors, doctors, and those who would have interviewed her, possibly through play therapy. Did the grand jury see those notes? If Patsy's own father sexually abused her and then Patsy let him care for JBR while she was in cancer treatment, would that be considered willfull endangerment?

My youngest used to ask me to wipe his bum till he was about 6 or 7. He’s on the autism spectrum. He used to ask his older siblings for help too. I wouldn’t let a friend do it though. Some kids are just like that, they don’t like wiping their own bums.

 

[4Wren6]

I'd like to add to my concerns and questions about JBR's fecal incontinence at the age of 6. Having adults wipe their butts is something toddlers come out of infancy as feeling "normal" for their routine caregivers. As they move through the developmental stages of toilet training and maturing, they eventually learn to wipe themselves, flush, pull their own pants up, wash their hands. By the age of anywhere from 3-4 mostdevelop a natural modesty and independence that leads them to want to do these things themselves. That stage is followed by a general embarrassment at anyone else being that intimately involved in their bathrooming and private parts, certainly by the age of 6.

JbR apparently lacked that natural modesty and embarrassment. In fact, she would *ask* to have her private parts attended to. She seemed to accept fecal incontinence as normal. I'm wondering if she ever was embarrassed at having to have her panties changed while playing at friends' houses and having fecally soiled panties returned to her mother and beingngiven panties that belinged to her friends. None of that is normal, at least at the age of 6.

I think I'll leave it right there for now. As a social worker, this would have been noted, highlighted, and handed over to professional counselors, doctors, and those who would have interviewed her, possibly through play therapy. Did the grand jury see those notes? If Patsy's own father sexually abused her and then Patsy let him care for JBR while she was in cancer treatment, would that be considered willfull endangerment?

As the mom of a 6 yr old. She can use the potty perfectly fine on her own, but she does still ask for help wiping when she poops.
I’ve worked with a lot of kids over the years this is still pretty normal of 6. Just want to clarify that part.

The soiling her underwear though, at that age is certainly what’s not normal.

Hard to say for sure but often when kids feel like they have little control over their life, they will choose to cling at an abnormal control of one of two things, what goes on and what comes out.

In addition, kids who are abused can soil themselves to be less desirable to an abuser.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Th

There’s not a lot available on the internet. I took the time to find something for you, if you’re not happy with it, look it up yourself!

I wasn't asking to see it is my belief that she wrote the note based on what I have seen. I'm just pointing out apples vs Oranges so I'm good thank you.

 

[Slebby]

It is illegal for the GJ to discuss this case. Who is interviewing jurors? I can’t find anything on YouTube showing a grand juror being interviewed, but they could be lying, as this case is so sensational that anyone could be making these claims. I’m surprised CO courts would not seek to prosecute a grand juror who sat for an interview, especially on such a high-profile case.

I just googled “JonBenét Ramsey grand jury member YouTube” and presto! Several versions of basically the same interview, 20/20, from 2016.

(Edit to add: at least I think the same clip from 20/20 appeared across different clips I skimmed, didn’t have time to vet them and I’m not speaking to their truth or quality, just that they exist!)

 

[Deleted member 187229]

As the mom of a 6 yr old. She can use the potty perfectly fine on her own, but she does still ask for help wiping when she poops.
I’ve worked with a lot of kids over the years this is still pretty normal of 6. Just want to clarify that part.

The soiling her underwear though, at that age is certainly what’s not normal.

Hard to say for sure but often when kids feel like they have little control over their life, they will choose to cling at an abnormal control of one of two things, what goes on and what comes out.

In addition, kids who are abused can soil themselves to be less desirable to an abuser.

I’ll tell you what’s not normal, and I don’t care if this upsets anyone. Fleet white wiping jonbenet on the toilet. That’s highly inappropriate. I know it was the 90’s and a different time but I think most men would feel uncomfortable wiping a 6 year old girl who isn’t their own daughter. The Ramsey’s were too trusting and nonchalant. I don’t believe they killed JonBenet but they sure did put her in dangerous situations with the pageants, community parades and letting friends wipe her on the toilet. What the heck were they thinking!

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

As the mom of a 6 yr old. She can use the potty perfectly fine on her own, but she does still ask for help wiping when she poops.
I’ve worked with a lot of kids over the years this is still pretty normal of 6. Just want to clarify that part.

The soiling her underwear though, at that age is certainly what’s not normal.

Hard to say for sure but often when kids feel like they have little control over their life, they will choose to cling at an abnormal control of one of two things, what goes on and what comes out.

In addition, kids who are abused can soil themselves to be less desirable to an abuser.

I'm going to chime in here and add sensory issues can cause children to hold their stool and then it's painful to pass and causes a vicious cycle.
Also in regards to wiping, they can be afraid of getting poop on their hands and be resistant. Which is that surprising as they are usually told that poop is dirty!
Children with ADHD may have higher instances of enuresis due to lack of attention to the signals and dysregulated sleep.
I agree that there can be underlying issues but not always due to abuse.

 

[Tower]

They came to the conclusion it was murder in the 1st degree. I can't believe they had zero basis for this decision. Why not manslaughter or 2nd degree murder? I'm sure the had instruction and the guidance if the court as to how to charge based on their findings.
I like you think the ambiguity could be to shield BR but I don't discount they couldn't pinpoint who did what act but had a very strong indication it was one of the 3 and this decision was not made on tabloid influence.

I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe the death could be first degree murder if caused by a 9-year-old. I explained my rationale upthread, but he could not form intent, so they would not have documented it as first degree murder. They would not issue a true bill of indictment for accessories to an accidental death by a child.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe the death could be first degree murder if caused by a 9-year-old. I explained my rationale upthread, but he could not form intent, so they would not have documented it as first degree murder. They would not issue a true bill of indictment for accessories to an accidental death by a child.

My point was more to someone in the home but let's suppose you are correct. I'm going on purely theoretical as pertaining to the law. Let's say BR did something purposeful to JBR as she was restrained. It was done with intent but he could not be charged due to his age. How would the parents be charged for concocting a fraudulent crime? What we expect those True Bills to look like without exposing him?
If they did mislead, lie, create fake crime and incriminate innocent people that is a crime. No matter how you tried BR would be exposed.
I'm at a loss as to how they would come up with a True Bill

 

[OneLove]

I am not a lawyer, but I do not believe the death could be first degree murder if caused by a 9-year-old. I explained my rationale upthread, but he could not form intent, so they would not have documented it as first degree murder. They would not issue a true bill of indictment for accessories to an accidental death by a child.

Thank you for that clarification. --At the time of the grand jury's decision, was it already known and generally accepted as fact that the strangulation was likely staging or at least happened after death and her death occurred from the prior blow to the head? I'm uninformed on the timeline.

 

[Tower]

You would think that samples of PR's handwriting would have been taken from writings prior to JBR's death.

I agree. It is completely unscientific, in my opinion, to ask anyone to write something when they are under investigation for a crime. If you are innocent, you would be stressed out and afraid. If you are guilty, you’d obviously mask your handwriting. Either way, it’s totally unscientific. I can’t believe any police department would bother. In 1996/1997, there had to be examples of people’s writing prior to the crime. It would be more complicated now with less handwriting in our daily routines.

 

[Charlot123]

This is with the first line. I'm sorry, you did not use the words trophy wife.
When I read your post the message to me is that,
Patsy's only known track to a successful life was pageants, and so that's what she signed her daughter up for. If it was now, Patsy would sign up JonBenet for something pragmatic like STEM classes.
Is that correct?

My main message is that even in the 1970s, Patsy was a STEM class kind of girl and a pageant girl. And once school formally started for JonBenet she would have been pushing more with academics as well.

Maybe we're both getting to the same point.

I think we are.

I think that the typical versions: pineapple, BDI, the Rs covered it up, are possible, but not new. Some assumptions have never been proven (JBR being SA), others may be totally misunderstood (kids suffering from incontinence).

I think that the fact that Patsy was very sick since JBR was 3 years old might have taken away her energy. Nonetheless, the RS did notice BR’s problems and I think that perhaps, JBR’s incontinence had nothing to do with PR being bad mom. Some genetics. I remember B in his interview said something like “what kid didn’t occasionally wet the bed till seven?” Something like it. This is not true, but incontinence till 7 is usually not merely poor training. Either it was genetic in the Rs family, or indicated that BR and JBR were more similar than it met an eye.

But, the Rs version is old and “a total stranger did it” is not very believable. BR accidentally doing it would explain the rest, of course. His parents doing it and one covering the other? Makes no sense.

Someone else working in the house? Given the house’s layout, not impossible.

 

[OneLove]

I'm going to chime in here and add sensory issues can cause children to hold their stool and then it's painful to pass and causes a vicious cycle.
Also in regards to wiping, they can be afraid of getting poop on their hands and be resistant. Which is that surprising as they are usually told that poop is dirty!
Children with ADHD may have higher instances of enuresis due to lack of attention to the signals and dysregulated sleep.
I agree that there can be underlying issues but not always due to abuse.

Absolutely this! But it is not customary, as in the majority of the population this age. JBR was not known to have any of these issues either. Not sure about Burke's bathrooming habits and I believe he was in the care of a counselor or other emotional/mental health care worker wasnt he? I haven't followed this case in years and years so my memory on some details is fuzzy. In any case, there are always kids who lag behind in maturity and alot depends on their environment, training, and expectations. It seems Patsy had very low to no expectations concerning cleanliness habits around the house in general and "someone else" (the housekeeper usually) did the routine cleaning up of daily messes. So she may have had the same shrugged it off attitude about the fecal issue though I'd bet other people who knew thought it a bit out of the norm.

In any event, someone had access to JBR that day to leave saliva in her genitals and either JBR didn't mind enough to complain or that happened in the dead of night near to her death. Were there known to be any older children at the party that day? If not the killer that hit her on the head, what's your best guess as to how that got there?

 

[Tower]

My point was more to someone in the home but let's suppose you are correct. I'm going on purely theoretical as pertaining to the law. Let's say BR did something purposeful to JBR as she was restrained. It was done with intent but he could not be charged due to his age. How would the parents be charged for concocting a fraudulent crime? What we expect those True Bills to look like without exposing him?
If they did mislead, lie, create fake crime and incriminate innocent people that is a crime. No matter how you tried BR would be exposed.
I'm at a loss as to how they would come up with a True Bill

It cannot be “done with intent” because a 9-year-old does not have the intellectual capacity to understand that hitting someone can cause them to die and never wake again. It’s legally impossible.

If BR accidentally did something resulting in death, that is accidental death, not murder. JR and PR cannot be charged as accessories to that crime because no crime occurred.

The true bill would say desecration of a corpse, falsely reporting a crime and lying to the police or similar. It could say the adults were guilty of murder if the garrote actually killed her.

They cannot have the goal of protecting or not exposing BR or anyone else. I’m not sure why anyone believes our judicial system would make up a charge of first degree murder to hide BR’s identity. If he accidentally killed her, it is not the purpose of the GJ process to protect him.

They had the goal of issuing a legally accurate true bill of indictment. I believe the only possible way JR & PR could be charged as accessories to first degree murder is if an adult planned her murder (first degree). It legally rules out PR angrily bashing JBR in a fit of rage also (second or third degree).

 

[OneLove]

According to patsy’s 1997 interview with Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo, Patsy won miss west Virginia in 1977, she won a $2000 scholarship and went on to graduate from university in West Virginia, moved to Atlanta and stated working for McCann Erickson advertising agency in 1979. She married John Ramsey in 1980. She later worked for Hayes computers.

Thank you for this. So she worked something close to a year maybe at the ad agency? Do you know how long she kept that job, if at all, after she married John? Did she know John before she went to Atlanta or how they met? Any idea how long she worked at the computer company?

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Absolutely this! But it is not customary, as in the majority of the population this age. JBR was not known to have any of these issues either. Not sure about Burke's bathrooming habits and I believe he was in the care of a counselor or other emotional/mental health care worker wasnt he? I haven't followed this case in years and years so my memory on some details is fuzzy. In any case, there are always kids who lag behind in maturity and alot depends on their environment, training, and expectations. It seems Patsy had very low to no expectations concerning cleanliness habits around the house in general and "someone else" (the housekeeper usually) did the routine cleaning up of daily messes. So she may have had the same shrugged it off attitude about the fecal issue though I'd bet other people who knew thought it a bit out of the norm.

In any event, someone had access to JBR that day to leave saliva in her genitals and either JBR didn't mind enough to complain or that happened in the dead of night near to her death. Were there known to be any older children at the party that day? If not the killer that hit her on the head, what's your best guess as to how that got there?

Patsy had gone through stage 4 ovarian cancer and chemo for years. That in itself could cause some psychological issues with the kids. Feelings of confusion, fear, their mother being sick and their father working a lot. They had Nannie’s and house keepers to help. Seems like it would be normal for the kids to have some sleeping issues or toileting issues or any kind of issues for that matter. There would have been times where patsy was sick in bed for days on end. I think the bed wetting and toileting issues possibly stem from the traumas of seeing their mother go through cancer at their young ages. Patsy had cancer for most of jonbenets life.