Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Bekind89]

I thought Patsy and her husband had lie detector tests they both passed. Also, the son was interrogated and he also got off without suspicion.
Can you explain more in detail for us, why you feel under all circumstances that there was no intruder. I am not of one or another opinion. Yet.

Not to my knowledge. It is my understanding that they refused to take a lie detector test, claiming that they didn't trust the FBI.

 

[Bekind89]

The one question I keep going back to - How does one person, let alone 3 people always have the perfect answer for everything all these years?

It simply doesn't happen without extreme coaching and extreme help. Anybody can come up with any theory or scenario they want but often times the police will let a person go on and on and on and do interviews, etc....just waiting for them to slip up just enough to actually arrest them. (Ala the Dwayne Keffee D - Tupac murder back in Vegas)

To this day, every single Ramsey has the perfect answer to any question or any scenario..... "Hasn't happened before or since."

Perfect answers or just evasive ones.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Not to my knowledge. It is my understanding that they refused to take a lie detector test, claiming that they didn't trust the FBI.

Patsy and John both passed polygraph tests in may of 2000. The tests were conducted by Polygraph examiner Ed Gelb.

 

[Bekind89]

Patsy and John both passed polygraph tests in may of 2000. The tests were conducted by Polygraph examiner Ed Gelb.

Link?

 

[Bekind89]

Link?

Also, this was a private polygraph, not administrated by the FBI, but someone the Ramsey's paid?

 

[CloudedTruth]

I accept dr Myers autopsy report as accurate. Unless there are forensic reports from other doctors who personally examined jonbenets body, I will continue to only accept Dr Myers report.

From The Denver Post:


Also note that Dr. Meyer did not show up to the house until around 8:30PM that night, the body had been laying in the living room since being found shortly after 1PM. That's almost 7 1/2 hours. Hard to get an accurate core temperature of the corpse when you wait that long. He was unable to provide a TOD with any accuracy as a result of not being on the scene in a timely manner and performing some of the necessary tests in order to do so. Thus we have the very broad range partially based upon the parents' account of the last time they saw her alive at approximately 10PM, TOD estimate was anywhere from 10PM until 6AM. He might've well just have written in "no clue". I would've asked for further expert consultation too. Dr. Meyer did not live up to his reputation on this one.

What the coroner forgot By Chuck Green Nationally known coroners have been critical of Meyer's autopsy report in the Ramsey case, saying that Meyer spent only 10 minutes with the little girl's corpse at the scene of the crime and neglected several critical procedures on the autopsy table the following morning. Meyer has a long-standing policy of not publicly commenting on his autopsies in criminal cases. The most damning and detailed criticism of the Ramsey autopsy came last week from Dr. Claus (Peter) Speth, a well-known and controversial pathologist who has conducted about 8,000 autopsies and nearly 1,200 crime-scene investigations. He has been licensed in New York, Connecticut, California and New Jersey and holds certificates in three fields of pathology - anatomical, clinical and forensic. He is now retired but works as a consultant from his office in New Jersey. Among the highlights of his comments on the Ramsey autopsy report: Not having recorded the core temperature of JonBenet's corpse soon after the crime scene was secured by police. Not thoroughly noting the presence or absence of the setting and gelling of blood, a condition of discoloration known as lividity, an important factor in estimating the time of death and the position of the hands, arms and feet of an undisturbed corpse. Not extracting fluid from JonBenet Ramsey's eyeballs, an important procedure that allows a measurement of the vitreous potassium in her eye fluid - another critical factor in estimating the time of her death. Those three pieces of evidence, considered together, "can provide a reliable window of probability" of when death occured, especially if the body is discovered under average conditions and less than 36 hours after death, Speth said. Failure to note any damage - or lack of it - to the tender facial skin around the 6-year-old girl's mouth, or the presence of residual adhesive. JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, has said that when he found the girl's body in a basement storage room, he ripped off a strip of duct tape that had been pressed over her mouth. The lack of notations strongly indicates that no damage was detected by Meyer, raising a doubt about the father's version of events. Inadequate examination of the scalp where JonBenet's skull was bashed in by an instrument variously thought to be a flashlight, or a baseball bat or a golf club. There is no indication in the autopsy report that Meyer cut away the scalp hair to examine and photograph the surface of the scalp over the depressed skull fracture. Using special lighting, a pathologist can detect the characteristics of the weapon causing the fracture. The lack of specificity about the exact location and shape of urine stains found on JonBenet's leggings, details of which could provide evidence of whether the stain occurred while she was standing, sitting or lying down. Failure to record the precise number, locations and pattern of "several" red stains on the girl's panties. Such items indicate a failure by the pathologist to contribute to the crime-scene investigation and to provide meaningful forensic correlations at the autopsy, Speth said. That denies possible evidence to detectives and prosecutors. Other forensic pathologists, most notably former New York City Coroner Michael Baden and Pittsburgh Coroner Cyril Wecht, have made similar observations about Meyer's report of the Ramsey autopsy.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Guilty knowledge covering any/and/or knowledge of sexual abuse, staging, aftermath.
At what point on the timeline do you think JR and PR had the first bit of collusion?
That's where I'm stu0ck in this option.

Given the amount of staging that was done, I think it started no later than 1AM, possibly as early as midnite or just before.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Also, this was a private polygraph, not administrated by the FBI, but someone the Ramsey's paid?

Yes. They refused to have the tests administered by the FBI. It was someone hired and paid by Team Ramsey. His name was Ed Gelb. Very sketchy reputation. The first tests were administered by Gerard Toriello. Those tests were "inconclusive".

The Ramseys rejected using an FBI examiner because the FBI was working closely with Boulder PD on the case since day one, and they were afraid they'd be subjected to an interrogation, according to their attorney Lin Wood.

Interesting however that the Ramseys later claimed that the FBI was not involved in the case and complained about it. Most infamously on the Larry King interview along side Steve Thomas. They insisted the FBI had not been there, had not set foot in their house and they were upset about that because they wanted the FBI to be involved over the BPD. But they were there on day one.

 

[Bekind89]

Yes. They refused to have the tests administered by the FBI. It was someone hired and paid by Team Ramsey. His name was Ed Gelb. Very sketchy reputation. The first tests were administered by Gerard Toriello. Those tests were "inconclusive".

The Ramseys rejected using an FBI examiner because the FBI was working closely with Boulder PD on the case since day one, and they were afraid they'd be subjected to an interrogation, according to their attorney Lin Wood.

Interesting however that the Ramseys later claimed that the FBI was not involved in the case and complained about it. Most infamously on the Larry King interview along side Steve Thomas. They insisted the FBI had not been there, had not set foot in their house and they were upset about that because they wanted the FBI to be involved over the BPD. But they were there on day one.

So they basically bought and paid for the results that they wanted. Why am I not surprised.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The one question I keep going back to - How does one person, let alone 3 people always have the perfect answer for everything all these years?

It simply doesn't happen without extreme coaching and extreme help. Anybody can come up with any theory or scenario they want but often times the police will let a person go on and on and on and do interviews, etc....just waiting for them to slip up just enough to actually arrest them. (Ala the Dwayne Keffee D - Tupac murder back in Vegas)

To this day, every single Ramsey has the perfect answer to any question or any scenario..... "Hasn't happened before or since."

My husband calls it, "baffle 'em with BS". John is a good salesman, he knows how to manipulate the story.

Patsy on the other hand has slipped up during interviews. When they're together, you can see the look on John's face when it happens. When apart, Patsy would say one thing one day, obviously report to John and then come back with a different story the next day. He was the master behind the curtain pulling the strings. Same thing with Burke who has let some things slip. When asked why Burke admitted to Dr. Phil that he had been downstairs after everyone else was in bed that night, John says "maybe he didn't understand the question". In the same sentence he says he was not aware that Burke was downstairs later, and then says maybe that didn't really happen. LOL.

The different stories that the Ramseys have told over the years are like a revolving door at a busy Las Vegas hotel.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

From The Denver Post:


Also note that Dr. Meyer did not show up to the house until around 8:30PM that night, the body had been laying in the living room since being found shortly after 1PM. That's almost 7 1/2 hours. Hard to get an accurate core temperature of the corpse when you wait that long. He was unable to provide a TOD with any accuracy as a result of not being on the scene in a timely manner and performing some of the necessary tests in order to do so. Thus we have the very broad range partially based upon the parents' account of the last time they saw her alive at approximately 10PM, TOD estimate was anywhere from 10PM until 6AM. He might've well just have written in "no clue". I would've asked for further expert consultation too. Dr. Meyer did not live up to his reputation on this one.

What the coroner forgot By Chuck Green Nationally known coroners have been critical of Meyer's autopsy report in the Ramsey case, saying that Meyer spent only 10 minutes with the little girl's corpse at the scene of the crime and neglected several critical procedures on the autopsy table the following morning. Meyer has a long-standing policy of not publicly commenting on his autopsies in criminal cases. The most damning and detailed criticism of the Ramsey autopsy came last week from Dr. Claus (Peter) Speth, a well-known and controversial pathologist who has conducted about 8,000 autopsies and nearly 1,200 crime-scene investigations. He has been licensed in New York, Connecticut, California and New Jersey and holds certificates in three fields of pathology - anatomical, clinical and forensic. He is now retired but works as a consultant from his office in New Jersey. Among the highlights of his comments on the Ramsey autopsy report: Not having recorded the core temperature of JonBenet's corpse soon after the crime scene was secured by police. Not thoroughly noting the presence or absence of the setting and gelling of blood, a condition of discoloration known as lividity, an important factor in estimating the time of death and the position of the hands, arms and feet of an undisturbed corpse. Not extracting fluid from JonBenet Ramsey's eyeballs, an important procedure that allows a measurement of the vitreous potassium in her eye fluid - another critical factor in estimating the time of her death. Those three pieces of evidence, considered together, "can provide a reliable window of probability" of when death occured, especially if the body is discovered under average conditions and less than 36 hours after death, Speth said. Failure to note any damage - or lack of it - to the tender facial skin around the 6-year-old girl's mouth, or the presence of residual adhesive. JonBenet's father, John Ramsey, has said that when he found the girl's body in a basement storage room, he ripped off a strip of duct tape that had been pressed over her mouth. The lack of notations strongly indicates that no damage was detected by Meyer, raising a doubt about the father's version of events. Inadequate examination of the scalp where JonBenet's skull was bashed in by an instrument variously thought to be a flashlight, or a baseball bat or a golf club. There is no indication in the autopsy report that Meyer cut away the scalp hair to examine and photograph the surface of the scalp over the depressed skull fracture. Using special lighting, a pathologist can detect the characteristics of the weapon causing the fracture. The lack of specificity about the exact location and shape of urine stains found on JonBenet's leggings, details of which could provide evidence of whether the stain occurred while she was standing, sitting or lying down. Failure to record the precise number, locations and pattern of "several" red stains on the girl's panties. Such items indicate a failure by the pathologist to contribute to the crime-scene investigation and to provide meaningful forensic correlations at the autopsy, Speth said. That denies possible evidence to detectives and prosecutors. Other forensic pathologists, most notably former New York City Coroner Michael Baden and Pittsburgh Coroner Cyril Wecht, have made similar observations about Meyer's report of the Ramsey autopsy.

Dr Myer said he didn’t take the temperature of jonbenets body because it could have destroyed evidence or contaminated the body. What do you think would have happened to the evidence in jonbenets underpants if he took her temperate via her rectum? He said he didn’t test her temperature via her liver because he didn’t want to remove her clothing. There’s a lot of information online regarding the formula used to analyse the temperature of a deceased body and that it’s not reliable due to factors such as clothing the deceased person is wearing, the environmental factors, the size of the body, the health of the person before death and so on. I think Dr Myer made the right decision not to touch jonbenets body. Dr Myer said taking a recital temperature could potentially lose or contaminate genital fibres and other evidence found in the genital region. Taking the temperature by inserting a thermometer into the liver requires the removal of clothing and potentially contaminating or destroying evidence. He made the right call.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Dr Myer said he didn’t take the temperature of jonbenets body because it could have destroyed evidence or contaminated the body. What do you think would have happened to the evidence in jonbenets underpants if he took her temperate via her rectum? He said he didn’t test her temperature via her liver because he didn’t want to remove her clothing. There’s a lot of information online regarding the formula used to analyse the temperature of a deceased body and that it’s not reliable due to factors such as clothing the deceased person is wearing, the environmental factors, the size of the body, the health of the person before death and so on. I think Dr Myer made the right decision not to touch jonbenets body. Dr Myer said taking a recital temperature could potentially lose or contaminate genital fibres and other evidence found in the genital region. Taking the temperature by inserting a thermometer into the liver requires the removal of clothing and potentially contaminating or destroying evidence. He made the right call.

I don't think unless you are a qualified forensic pathologist you can determine if he made the right call or not. He has been roundly criticized by other well qualified forensic pathologists for how he handled things. How do other coroner's manage to get the information they need by performing tests without disturbing evidence? It's done all the time.

Not showing up for 7 1/2 hours sounds fairly negligent to me. No wonder Boulder PD were dissatisfied with his findings. They had every right to be.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Where’s the proof the FBI were at the house on day one. I read the FBI were turned away.

FBI agent Ron Walker was there. It's documented.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I don't think unless you are a qualified forensic pathologist you can determine if he made the right call or not. He has been roundly criticized by other well qualified forensic pathologists for how he handled things. How do other coroner's manage to get the information they need by performing tests without disturbing evidence? It's done all the time.

Not showing up for 7 1/2 hours sounds fairly negligent to me. No wonder Boulder PD were dissatisfied with his findings. They had every right to be.

There could be a number of reasons why he showed up at the time he did. I read he turned up 40 minutes after he was requested. He can’t attend until the body is released to the coroner by the police. After jonbenets body was found, the forensics came in to start documenting the crime scene and take photos. Dr Myer was called in after forensics had finished. He arrived 40 minutes after he was requested.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The one question I keep going back to - How does one person, let alone 3 people always have the perfect answer for everything all these years?

It simply doesn't happen without extreme coaching and extreme help. Anybody can come up with any theory or scenario they want but often times the police will let a person go on and on and on and do interviews, etc....just waiting for them to slip up just enough to actually arrest them. (Ala the Dwayne Keffee D - Tupac murder back in Vegas)

To this day, every single Ramsey has the perfect answer to any question or any scenario..... "Hasn't happened before or since."

Oh, yes. Spot on.

I have always said that John called someone that night, they got expert advice about what to do and the fix was in. Police were told right away to treat the Ramseys as victims. IMO anyone who thinks the investigation was botched by incompetent police is simply naive. It is much more than that, it goes far deeper than that. And it very well may involve a group who were into some very dark & disgusting extra curricular activities. There are some interesting clues that are still floating around and most often referred to as rumors. They persist. Could be coincidence, could be where there's smoke there's fire. There are certainly some interesting undercurrents that have to do with the Ramsey's church. I'd love to see someone do a deep dive there. And AH's history of how he handled cases involving the abuse of children is a red flag waving all over the place.

Whenever I go down this road I tell myself I'm mistaken. It's too dark to consider. It's the stuff of conspiracy theorists. But we do know that it happens, much more than we like to think. I have a personal experience and knowledge of something very dark and sinister that happened in my home town. It was also kept quiet. Not only because of who was involved, but because it was just too much for people to believe. So they hushed it up and for the most part made it go away. Exposing it would have harmed the reputation of the community. So much for having the right to know what's going on under your nose....

This is a controversial post, I know. I think your last comments say it well.....very sick. But the whole crime is. Indeed.

I have not done a deep dive into this aspect but it is my opinion the JR has an obligation to his fixers to keep pushing his narrative. 30 years ago no one would have anticipated the continued interest and the internet.
I think if it's not BR , it's for the high powered people at the top, who didn't want the association then and definitely not now.
After seeing the evil of P. Diddy, I think it's much easier to accept those " out there" theories. The internet brings crazy shiz to us every day, right into our homes and that's a whole nother conversation but I believe things now that I would have not believed 20 years ago and I'm not a naive person.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I’ll see if I can find that. Thanks.

FBI agent Ron Walker was there. It's documented.

FBI agent Ron Walker was there. It's documented.

I’ll see if I can find that. Thanks. That’s very interesting.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

My husband calls it, "baffle 'em with BS". John is a good salesman, he knows how to manipulate the story.

Patsy on the other hand has slipped up during interviews. When they're together, you can see the look on John's face when it happens. When apart, Patsy would say one thing one day, obviously report to John and then come back with a different story the next day. He was the master behind the curtain pulling the strings. Same thing with Burke who has let some things slip. When asked why Burke admitted to Dr. Phil that he had been downstairs after everyone else was in bed that night, John says "maybe he didn't understand the question". In the same sentence he says he was not aware that Burke was downstairs later, and then says maybe that didn't really happen. LOL.

The different stories that the Ramseys have told over the years are like a revolving door at a busy Las Vegas hotel.

His lying just seems more sinister than "baffle 'em with BS".
Just saying

 

[Deleted member 187229]

I don't think unless you are a qualified forensic pathologist you can determine if he made the right call or not. He has been roundly criticized by other well qualified forensic pathologists for how he handled things. How do other coroner's manage to get the information they need by performing tests without disturbing evidence? It's done all the time.

Not showing up for 7 1/2 hours sounds fairly negligent to me. No wonder Boulder PD were dissatisfied with his findings. They had every right to be.

It should be noted that JonBenet's body was already in the custody of the Coroner's Office since not long after being found on the afternoon of December 26. Coroner's investigator Patricia Dunn was on site examining the body by 1:23PM. She would remain at the scene with the body until it was transported to the morgue around 10:45PM. In other words, while Dr. Meyer spent only ten minutes with the body at the crime scene, his designee had spent a much longer time doing so on behalf of his office.

 

[Bekind89]

His lying just seems more sinister than "baffle 'em with BS".
Just saying

Sinister describes him perfectly, IMHO. He has always given me the creeps, always.

 

[CloudedTruth]

His lying just seems more sinister than "baffle 'em with BS".
Just saying

Oh, I don’t disagree. Just noting that was a skill he used in business a lot. The consummate salesman. It served him well. I do think he used it in a very sinister way when the murder happened. He adapted it to suit his purpose.