Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[ShadyLady]

He wasn’t sure which came first because they happened so close together. The list of names you mentioned didn’t look at the report until years after the murder. Dr Myer has never doubted his findings.

So JBR could have been tortured and then immediately killed.
That is why I don't think it was staged. JBR was tortured. That was anger. And personal. So was the anger directed at John. And I read the $118k figure was after taxes. So PR could have know that. IMO.

 

[CloudedTruth]

What? Why?
John had been in a navy and Burke was a boy scout. Both of them were well able to construct a garrote. There is no need for excess imagination in this case to make sense of it all.

John also served in the Philippines while in the Navy. The garrote has a big history there that is well documented. I think there's a reason he deliberately mispronounces that word, and that's to distance himself.

 

[ShadyLady]

I know mothers are violent and sick, but I would have to see evidence that Patsy watched sadistic p**n or was abused by a pedophilic s*x ring as a child to believe she knew how to make and use a garrote. That evidence may exist, but I have not seen it. This was not a violent, impulsive crime, it was first degree (premeditated) murder with a sexual torture device according to the prosecutors’ and GJ evidence.

If it was previously planned, why use the things from the house? Including the note pad and pen. I don't think this crime was thought out in advance. Things used were grabbed impulsively. Ransom was just an excuse to cover the crime, throw LE off and postpone finding the body. And it was PR that could not be bothered to read the letter, BUT did call all her friends to contaminate the crime scene. PR was not dumb. And she had a degree in journalism. But, I am sure she was in a panic after JBR died.

Knots could have been learned from Scout books. Was PR involved in teaching BR? Was it even a traditional garrote? Or just something designed to hurt JBR?

The housekeeper said PR would take JBR in bathroom, close the door after she had accidents and she could hear JBR screaming. So PR was not always such a loving mother. Ramseys were all about appearances. In more than one way. IMO

 

[Tower]

She was on the scene fairly soon after the body was found has been documented. We also know that John signed the papers necessary to release the body to the coroner before he left the house that afternoon. He made the assumption that it was the coroner that handed him the papers, but it wasn't.

So it certainly would be interesting to know exactly what Dunn did while she was there. Where are her reports? To my knowledge we have never seen anything from her. It is the coroner's responsibility to make the legal declaration of death before the body is removed from the crime scene. There are many other details in a murder that the coroner is responsible for as well. Knowing that Dr. Meyer spent so little time on the scene one has to assume that Dunn was the one to perform these duties.

The Boulder PD has over the years taken a lot of heat for how they handled the scene, mistakes made on that first day. Other professional forensic pathologists have noted that there were some things that the coroner should have done and did not. How much experience did he have with murders? I don't think it's out of line to question why it took him 7 1/2 hours to make his appearance at the scene or why certain important tests to help determine key questions were apparently not performed. I also do not think the opinions of the many well qualified experts who consulted on this case are completely insignificant. It is yet another part of this case that raises questions instead of giving us solid answers.

Agree. To answer the question about homicide experience, they had little to none. JonBenét’s homicide was the first one that year in Boulder. Even though many other agencies later assisted, the local police did not deal with homicides often, let alone convoluted cases like this one.

Can the murder of JonBenét Ramsey be solved by 7 items of evidence?

Her father John Ramsey said DNA testing on items like a blanket and a rope could point to the killer.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Val1943]

Genetic genealogy is going on for a long time in finding the killers relatives .

Genetic genealogy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

to add the ransom`s letter says they are from a different country

THE RANSOM LETTER
Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction

 

[Tower]

If it was previously planned, why use the things from the house? Including the note pad and pen. I don't think this crime was thought out in advance. Things used were grabbed impulsively. Ransom was just an excuse to cover the crime, throw LE off and postpone finding the body. And it was PR that could not be bothered to read the letter, BUT did call all her friends to contaminate the crime scene. PR was not dumb. And she had a degree in journalism. But, I am sure she was in a panic after JBR died.

Knots could have been learned from Scout books. Was PR involved in teaching BR? Was it even a traditional garrote? Or just something designed to hurt JBR?

The housekeeper said PR would take JBR in bathroom, close the door after she had accidents and she could hear JBR screaming. So PR was not always such a loving mother. Ramseys were all about appearances. In more than one way. IMO

The GJ noted it was premeditated, so they believed it was planned. As @CloudedTruth stated, that could mean an impulsive act, followed by torture and premeditated murder to mask the initial act.

But I think there is compelling evidence pointing away from impulsive killing followed by impulsive sadistic garroting of a child and impulsive, torturing SA. The garrote was twisted and strangled her, so it was absolutely real and worked as intended. A garrote is much more than learning knots from Scouts books. It is a deliberate sadistic SA torture device. In an era before dark web p**n, it is a very unusual and evil way to torture a child and points to very specific, grown adult suspect(s).

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The GJ noted it was premeditated, so they believed it was planned. As @CloudedTruth stated, that could mean an impulsive act, followed by torture and premeditated murder to mask the initial act.

But I think there is compelling evidence pointing away from impulsive killing followed by impulsive sadistic garroting of a child and impulsive, torturing SA. The garrote was twisted and strangled her, so it was absolutely real and worked as intended. A garrote is much more than learning knots from Scouts books. It is a deliberate sadistic SA torture device. In an era before dark web p**n, it is a very unusual and evil way to torture a child and points to very specific, grown adult suspect(s).

Imo too much staging was done to discern what was part of the killing vs staging. The body was lying in the cellar up to 15 hours. How much of the embedded ligature was due to post mortem swelling?

 

[Tower]

Imo too much staging was done to discern what was part of the killing vs staging. The body was lying in the cellar up to 15 hours. How much of the embedded ligature was due to post mortem swelling?

Petechiae findings mean most experts agree she was alive when strangled. I have read so much on this case, but don’t remember if there were experts who believed she died prior to being strangled.

So, I would say, most experts agree the garrote and strangling were torture/murder, not for visual effect or deflection.

 

[lonetraveler]

Yes. They refused to have the tests administered by the FBI. It was someone hired and paid by Team Ramsey. His name was Ed Gelb. Very sketchy reputation. The first tests were administered by Gerard Toriello. Those tests were "inconclusive".

The Ramseys rejected using an FBI examiner because the FBI was working closely with Boulder PD on the case since day one, and they were afraid they'd be subjected to an interrogation, according to their attorney Lin Wood.

Interesting however that the Ramseys later claimed that the FBI was not involved in the case and complained about it. Most infamously on the Larry King interview along side Steve Thomas. They insisted the FBI had not been there, had not set foot in their house and they were upset about that because they wanted the FBI to be involved over the BPD. But they were there on day one.

Maybe it's just me but I've never given much credibility to polygraphs done by someone hired by a possible suspect in a case. JMO

 

[GRT]

And it was PR that could not be bothered to read the letter, BUT did call all her friends to contaminate the crime scene. PR was not dumb.

I agree she was not dumb, but I read she called one set of friends--the Whites, I think--and then they called others, and the others called others.

Either way, securing the crime scene is a job for LE, not family. And LE searched the house early on, including the basement, and didn't find JBR's body.

LE wasn't on their game that day. MOO

 

[GRT]

What? Why?
John had been in a navy and Burke was a boy scout. Both of them were well able to construct a garrote. There is no need for excess imagination in this case to make sense of it all.

I'm sure the Navy learns many types of knots, so JR must have known them. But, Burke was only 9, so not old enough at that time to be in the Boy Scouts. He could have been a Cub Scout, and they probably learn some basic knots there, but I don't think they would teach those children how to make a garrotte, which is a deadly weapon intended to kill.

We could guess that JR might have taught BR, but I think that, too, is unlikely.

 

[lonetraveler]

W

Where do you think the sexual assault fits in? She had bleeding and injury to her vagina so it must have happened when she was alive but what was the purpose of it? To me, in my opinion, it seems more sadistic than sexual because it was done supposedly with the broken paintbrush. I can’t wrap my head around why that was done.

JMO but maybe the person thought that the vaginal injury would coverup any SA that was done at earlier times.

 

[lonetraveler]

What that quote tells me is that some people that don't follow crime would have a hard time thinking a mother could do something like that, (even though there were indications of such).
But, mothers ARE capable of heinous things. What the RL told me was PR was very angry at JR and she was out of control. And she killed her mini-me. Then JR had no choice but to bury the evidence. IMO

Very true. There are lots of people who even now think that a mother would not harm her children. We see cases everyday where the mother murders her children in horrific ways.

 

[lonetraveler]

I’d have to see what the Grand Jury saw. If the prosecution presented clear evidence that the strangulation was actually the cause of death, maybe that’s first degree murder?

There are conflicting reports of whether the head blow occurred before or after. As you more recently posted, the coroner did not examine her body until about 8 pm 12/26, so determining which came first is probably impossible now.

But why did the GJ not determine probable cause to recommend indicting either (or both) parent for murder? That’s a low bar and baffles me if they were involved.

The garrote is so bizarre. That is NOT staging, it is torture and murder. There’s no sign that the Ramseys were sexual sadists and really sick child abusers.

You call it “staging,” but in fact, it was real torture, abuse and murder. Brutal abuse was done to this child while she was still alive. If you’re going to “stage” a scene, none of that was necessary. Taking her body as far away from the house as possible would be much more effective staging for a ransom note. It was the middle of the night and she was tiny, JR could have dumped her body without desecrating it.

What we have here is a torture device none of us has ever heard of and could not make if we tried, violation of her genitals and a torture scene, not staging.

Respectfully, I do understand your purpose in using the word “staging,” I just have a different perspective and don‘t think that word describes this murder. Violating and murdering to make the scene appear like something else is what I think you’re saying.

No matter who killed this child, I think the violations were done for the sick enjoyment of the perpetrator. They are so sadistic and extreme. This is a very sick individual and the average mind could not come up with that “staging.” I certainly don’t rule out JR.

Raising my hand here, I knew what a garrote is and how it is used to torture and kill someone.

 

[Bekind89]

Maybe it's just me but I've never given much credibility to polygraphs done by someone hired by a possible suspect in a case. JMO

Not a drop of credibility, I absolutely agree with you. In fact, IMHO it is suspicious.

 

[Ponytale]

I'm sure the Navy learns many types of knots, so JR must have known them. But, Burke was only 9, so not old enough at that time to be in the Boy Scouts. He could have been a Cub Scout, and they probably learn some basic knots there, but I don't think they would teach those children how to make a garrotte, which is a deadly weapon intended to kill.

We could guess that JR might have taught BR, but I think that, too, is unlikely.

It has been talked about that the "garrote" was actually not a garrote. It is said to be a slip knot that only required the rope to be pulled upon from one angle, not a garrote-type-torturing-device, that would involve tightening the rope by twisting the garrote with the leverage of the added paintbrush. If you look online for photos of an actual garrote, it is easy to see the difference.
The "device" used in this crime to strangle JB was actually a Boy Scout tightening stick, named "toggle rope". Now, if you google this you find photos that look very similar to this "garrote". A toggle rope, in my understanding, is something that is regularly taught to scouts (possibly also to cub scouts) as a way to move around heavy objects. And that is why I believe that it possibly was already premade and ready in the house to use - lying around somewhere just in hand at basement. Now why would they use it? Because it is exactly something that a crazy monster that they needed for this kidnap-murder would use. It sure makes it believable, doesn't it? No parent would use it on their child, right? Exactly the thoughts that the Ramsey's needed for police and public to think.

A crazy intruder would not need any device for strangling a 6-year-old child and, IMO, would simply do it by using his hands. Especially if it was a premeditated with the intent to kill.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Petechiae findings mean most experts agree she was alive when strangled. I have read so much on this case, but don’t remember if there were experts who believed she died prior to being strangled.

So, I would say, most experts agree the garrote and strangling were torture/murder, not for visual effect or deflection.

Why do you think the hand ligatures were tied so loose? I see a conflict here. If someone is in a murder torturous rage, wouldn't that be present in all their actions? Rageful/ gentle tortuous/ covering her in her favorite blanket. Not in disagreement but questioning the very different approach whilst in a murderous torturous state of mind.

 

[ShadyLady]

Why do you think the hand ligatures were tied so loose? I see a conflict here. If someone is in a murder torturous rage, wouldn't that be present in all their actions? Rageful/ gentle tortuous/ covering her in her favorite blanket. Not in disagreement but questioning the very different approach whilst in a murderous torturous state of mind.

The person that covered JBR in her blanket and her nightgown was someone that cared for her. Guilt? And the heart on her hand? Remorse?

I don't think a stranger would have bothered. Do text book pedos do something like this?

 

[CloudedTruth]

The GJ noted it was premeditated, so they believed it was planned. As @CloudedTruth stated, that could mean an impulsive act, followed by torture and premeditated murder to mask the initial act.

But I think there is compelling evidence pointing away from impulsive killing followed by impulsive sadistic garroting of a child and impulsive, torturing SA. The garrote was twisted and strangled her, so it was absolutely real and worked as intended. A garrote is much more than learning knots from Scouts books. It is a deliberate sadistic SA torture device. In an era before dark web p**n, it is a very unusual and evil way to torture a child and points to very specific, grown adult suspect(s).

The garrote is a very interesting device that has a history that goes back centuries in time. It has been used in torture, in carrying out death sentences, and in sex games involving EA. It is interesting to note the dichotomy that exists in its use as a device to torture and a device to carry out a death sentence. For the latter purpose, it was known as being more humane than hanging, as when a garrote is properly applied and used, death happens very quickly. Much more so than hanging.

IMO and what sticks out to me in this case, is that there were clear indications of SA which points to the use of the garrote in respect to that aspect. The question is of course, was it used as a device in a sex game or was it used to stage the scene to imply that. I'd be curious to know how prevalent the use of a garrote was at that time in sex games. It's also worthy to note that JR when in the Navy was stationed in the Philippines, where the garrote holds a prominent place in Philippine history.

 

[Val1943]

Why pineapple in JPR stomach? Could it be the two gentlemen convinced her come down stairs to eat the pineapple. Also there was rope in the guest room that wasn't the Ramey's. The pineapple was on the dining room table, so they took her to the cellar and she started yelling and screaming. They hit her head and choke her to death. The marks on her neck are from her trying to take the rope off her neck.

THE RANSOM LETTER

The two gentlemen watching over your daughter