Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Chypre]

You are referring to the Ramseys as if they are one person. The killer could be PR, JR or BR.
It is my belief the GJ did the best they could on evidence presented which indicated R involvement in a coverup and staging (eg RN written by PR) as well as fiber evidence. What they couldn’t say for sure is which R was the actual killer. That, imo, is why they were only able to issue true bills to reflect that reality, they were unsure which R killed JBR.
I also do not believe the killer was anyone other than a R.
IMHO

You're right, I didn't catch that. I was thinking of John and Patsy as a couple when I was writing the post. My main point about the specific wording of the bill is that it leaves open every possibility of killer, just that the any Ramsey was involved somehow.

I saw a post on another thread saying it's impossible for the ransom note to be from Patsy AND have an intruder. I think it's within the realm of possibility, as in I'm sure if we all imagined as many scenarios as we have about the Ramseys or other suspects, we could do it.

 

[Tower]

I think Kolar’s book is the most factual and least biased. He presents everything very well and without emotion.

I will read it, if only because I think his theory is the least likely. He believes Burke initiated the head blow, but was not responsible for the ransom note nor garrotte?

 

[ShadyLady]

I will read it, if only because I think his theory is the least likely. He believes Burke initiated the head blow, but was not responsible for the ransom note nor garrotte?

I really think he was wrong on that. I think the torture came first. There were indications JBR was alive when the garrott was repeated tighten. The head blow could have been in addition to choking to finally end her life. But, each book brings information, all worth reading imo.

My only issue with Patsy, the knots. Did she learn to do them? Boy Scouts books? Boating? Helping BR learn them?

 

[Swirlz]

Kolar blames BR for all 3 elements of the crime, head blow, SA, strangulation. Kolar eliminates PR as the abuser/killer based on his belief that PR is a loving and caring mother. This is in sharp contrast to Steve Thomas' view of PR as a pushy and insensitive stage-mother. Thomas, as lead investigator, interviewed PR at length and spoke with many people who knew her well. Kolar doesn't provide an explanation for disagreeing with ST.

Kolar uses supposed evidence of fecal material having been found on a candy box in JBR's bedroom and a feces stained pair of pajama bottoms also found in JBR's bedroom to tie BR as opposed to the 2 adults present in the home on the night of the homicide into the crime. But Kolar admits in his Reddit AMA that the box was never collected which means it couldn't have been tested and that the pajama bottoms have never been confirmed as belonging to BR.

Kolar does provide an additional source for PR's fibers being in the ligature and JBR's sheet being urine stained and emitting a strong odor.

Kolar also admits BR's teachers described as "normal" and that Susanne Bernhard described BR as exhibiting the kind of anxiety that comes from caring.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Keep in mind John and Patsy were also exonerated by Mary Lacy. So if it works to exonerated Fleet then it works to exonerate them.
I think Fleet has been able to live a quiet and peaceful life for the last 20 years. Granted I don't think Fleet did it. I want to understand other people's theories.

The White’s immediately cooperated. They gave hair, blood for DNA testing and sat for interviews. They were actually “cleared” and named as witnesses, not suspects by various LE 3 times.

The White’s had a house full of guests for Christmas. The stories that the Ramseys told about what happened in Atlanta were exaggerated to make them look bad after they had expressed their strong opinions that the Ramseys needed to talk to police. Patsy had told Priscilla that they were not going to return to Boulder at all. The White’s told John they thought that was a mistake and that they were getting bad advice from their lawyers, who were stonewalling police. They also expressed that they felt doing the CNN interview instead of talking to police was a mistake. John didn’t want to hear it.

After they did end up returning to Boulder, having blatantly lied in the CNN fiasco about their intent to cooperate and sit down with police, John started telling everyone the CNN interview was Fleet’s idea. The Ramseys also started rumors about the White’s acting weird. They became distant. They then threw them both under the bus, accusing Priscilla of being jealous and Fleet of being hot tempered and unhinged.

Mike Bynum had called Fleet to his office on the 27th and essentially told him to stay out of it, that Haddon & Morgan were taking care of everything. They wanted to know what he told police. Fleet said he felt he was being threatened.

Fleet & Priscilla have not only cooperated but have advocated for justice for JonBenet from day one. They were deeply disturbed and concerned by the behavior they saw from the Ramseys and the shenanigans of the DA and his office. They were the first in the circle of friends to question the Ramseys behavior of non-cooperation. The first to be unfriended. As time went on, others started questioning the Ramseys stories too.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Kolar blames BR for all 3 elements of the crime, head blow, SA, strangulation. Kolar eliminates PR as the abuser/killer based on his belief that PR is a loving and caring mother. This is in sharp contrast to Steve Thomas' view of PR as a pushy and insensitive stage-mother. Thomas, as lead investigator, interviewed PR at length and spoke with many people who knew her well. Kolar doesn't provide an explanation for disagreeing with ST.

Kolar uses supposed evidence of fecal material having been found on a candy box in JBR's bedroom and a feces stained pair of pajama bottoms also found in JBR's bedroom to tie BR as opposed to the 2 adults present in the home on the night of the homicide into the crime. But Kolar admits in his Reddit AMA that the box was never collected which means it couldn't have been tested and that the pajama bottoms have never been confirmed as belonging to BR.

Kolar does provide an additional source for PR's fibers being in the ligature and JBR's sheet being urine stained and emitting a strong odor.

Kolar also admits BR's teachers described as "normal" and that Susanne Bernhard described BR as exhibiting the kind of anxiety that comes from caring.

I don’t agree with his assessment / conclusion, but it’s well written and thought out and has a lot of facts.

 

[Swirlz]

I don’t agree with his assessment / conclusion, but it’s well written and thought out and has a lot of facts.

I thought it was creepy and offensive.

 

[SweetDreamsAreMadeOfCheez]

The White’s immediately cooperated. They gave hair, blood for DNA testing and sat for interviews. They were actually “cleared” and named as witnesses, not suspects by various LE 3 times.

The White’s had a house full of guests for Christmas. The stories that the Ramseys told about what happened in Atlanta were exaggerated to make them look bad after they had expressed their strong opinions that the Ramseys needed to talk to police. Patsy had told Priscilla that they were not going to return to Boulder at all. The White’s told John they thought that was a mistake and that they were getting bad advice from their lawyers, who were stonewalling police. They also expressed that they felt doing the CNN interview instead of talking to police was a mistake. John didn’t want to hear it.

After they did end up returning to Boulder, having blatantly lied in the CNN fiasco about their intent to cooperate and sit down with police, John started telling everyone the CNN interview was Fleet’s idea. The Ramseys also started rumors about the White’s acting weird. They became distant. They then threw them both under the bus, accusing Priscilla of being jealous and Fleet of being hot tempered and unhinged.

Mike Bynum had called Fleet to his office on the 27th and essentially told him to stay out of it, that Haddon & Morgan were taking care of everything. They wanted to know what he told police. Fleet said he felt he was being threatened.

Fleet & Priscilla have not only cooperated but have advocated for justice for JonBenet from day one. They were deeply disturbed and concerned by the behavior they saw from the Ramseys and the shenanigans of the DA and his office. They were the first in the circle of friends to question the Ramseys behavior of non-cooperation. The first to be unfriended. As time went on, others started questioning the Ramseys stories too.

Again I do not think Fleet committed this crime. I am genuinely curious of other people's theories that aren't in the RDI camp. There is some validity to a number of people having the opportunity. So one really can't be 100% sure. And there is the possibility that Fleet is a really good actor. I am just saying anything is possible. MoO

 

[AddieBoo]

The White’s immediately cooperated. They gave hair, blood for DNA testing and sat for interviews. They were actually “cleared” and named as witnesses, not suspects by various LE 3 times.

The White’s had a house full of guests for Christmas. The stories that the Ramseys told about what happened in Atlanta were exaggerated to make them look bad after they had expressed their strong opinions that the Ramseys needed to talk to police. Patsy had told Priscilla that they were not going to return to Boulder at all. The White’s told John they thought that was a mistake and that they were getting bad advice from their lawyers, who were stonewalling police. They also expressed that they felt doing the CNN interview instead of talking to police was a mistake. John didn’t want to hear it.

After they did end up returning to Boulder, having blatantly lied in the CNN fiasco about their intent to cooperate and sit down with police, John started telling everyone the CNN interview was Fleet’s idea. The Ramseys also started rumors about the White’s acting weird. They became distant. They then threw them both under the bus, accusing Priscilla of being jealous and Fleet of being hot tempered and unhinged.

Mike Bynum had called Fleet to his office on the 27th and essentially told him to stay out of it, that Haddon & Morgan were taking care of everything. They wanted to know what he told police. Fleet said he felt he was being threatened.

Fleet & Priscilla have not only cooperated but have advocated for justice for JonBenet from day one. They were deeply disturbed and concerned by the behavior they saw from the Ramseys and the shenanigans of the DA and his office. They were the first in the circle of friends to question the Ramseys behavior of non-cooperation. The first to be unfriended. As time went on, others started questioning the Ramseys stories too.

Have you heard/read anything about Fleet Whites notes?
IIRC there was something about him taking notes at the Ramsey party on the 23rd?

 

[CloudedTruth]

Have you heard/read anything about Fleet Whites notes?
IIRC there was something about him taking notes at the Ramsey party on the 23rd?

I heard he was taking notes on the 26th. It’s my understanding that he was writing phone numbers and information on a note pad on the 23rd as he was trying to find a pharmacy that could fill a prescription for his mother. Nothing to do with what happened later.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Again I do not think Fleet committed this crime. I am genuinely curious of other people's theories that aren't in the RDI camp. There is some validity to a number of people having the opportunity. So one really can't be 100% sure. And there is the possibility that Fleet is a really good actor. I am just saying anything is possible. MoO

I understand. Just wanted to provide the info.

 

[Tower]

Kolar blames BR for all 3 elements of the crime, head blow, SA, strangulation. Kolar eliminates PR as the abuser/killer based on his belief that PR is a loving and caring mother. This is in sharp contrast to Steve Thomas' view of PR as a pushy and insensitive stage-mother. Thomas, as lead investigator, interviewed PR at length and spoke with many people who knew her well. Kolar doesn't provide an explanation for disagreeing with ST.

Kolar uses supposed evidence of fecal material having been found on a candy box in JBR's bedroom and a feces stained pair of pajama bottoms also found in JBR's bedroom to tie BR as opposed to the 2 adults present in the home on the night of the homicide into the crime. But Kolar admits in his Reddit AMA that the box was never collected which means it couldn't have been tested and that the pajama bottoms have never been confirmed as belonging to BR.

Kolar does provide an additional source for PR's fibers being in the ligature and JBR's sheet being urine stained and emitting a strong odor.

Kolar also admits BR's teachers described as "normal" and that Susanne Bernhard described BR as exhibiting the kind of anxiety that comes from caring.

This is why I think it’s the least likely. It defies logic that a 9-year-old fashioned a working garrotte when veteran homicide investigators say they had never seen one in their entire careers. 9-year-olds do not tell their fathers to “grow a brain” or “use that Southern good sense” when JR was born in Michigan. And this young boy had no access to p**n in that era. There is simply zero evidence that someone showed him these sadistic devices, including writing a sadistic letter and then he could hide it from the police and social workers. No way, imo

 

[CloudedTruth]

My honest opinion is that I think given her situation, having gone through rather grueling treatment for cancer, which included a hysterectomy which included removing her ovaries and chemo, she had to be suffering from some side effects. We know she started having panic attacks and the removal of her ovaries would have sent her into an early menopause. LHP said she had noticeable mood swings. Add to that the stress of the holidays (and she was charged with doing pretty much everything for Christmas), a trip to NYC, numerous holiday parties, 2-3 events with JonBenet, two back to back trips she had to pack for everyone for, the last minute party on the 23rd, I can only imagine she’d be exhausted and stressed. JB did not like the Twinn doll Patsy had special ordered for her, and they fought over JonBenet not wanting to wear a matching outfit to Patsy’s for Christmas dinner at the White’s. It all sounds a little like it could’ve been a recipe for disaster…..building up to her “going psycho”.

Oops. This was in response to ispyewithmylittleeye’s comment which I neglected to include….

 

[AddieBoo]

I think Kolar’s book is the most factual and least biased. He presents everything very well and without emotion.

where was JB when that piece was being constructed on her? (Because of that tangled up hair)
If the assailant was wearing those kind of bulky work gloves at that time, it gives reason to the sloppiness of the garrote/ligature.
Which in turn makes me think she was unconscious at the time?

This is why I think it’s the least likely. It defies logic that a 9-year-old fashioned a working garrotte when veteran homicide investigators say they had never seen one in their entire careers. 9-year-olds do not tell their fathers to “grow a brain” or “use that Southern good sense” when JR was born in Michigan. And this young boy had no access to p**n in that era. There is simply zero evidence that someone showed him these sadistic devices, including writing a sadistic letter and then he could hide it from the police and social workers. No way, imo

In

My honest opinion is that I think given her situation, having gone through rather grueling treatment for cancer, which included a hysterectomy which included removing her ovaries and chemo, she had to be suffering from some side effects. We know she started having panic attacks and the removal of her ovaries would have sent her into an early menopause. LHP said she had noticeable mood swings. Add to that the stress of the holidays (and she was charged with doing pretty much everything for Christmas), a trip to NYC, numerous holiday parties, 2-3 events with JonBenet, two back to back trips she had to pack for everyone for, the last minute party on the 23rd, I can only imagine she’d be exhausted and stressed. JB did not like the Twinn doll Patsy had special ordered for her, and they fought over JonBenet not wanting to wear a matching outfit to Patsy’s for Christmas dinner at the White’s. It all sounds a little like it could’ve been a recipe for disaster…..building up to her “going psycho”.

Oops. This was in response to ispyewithmylittleeye’s comment which I neglected to include…

This crime was so horrible and so heartbreaking on so many levels.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

The Grand Jury had every opportunity to issue “No True Bill”
The didn’t.

They failed to indict on fourteen out of eighteen charges. That is meaningful.

<modsnip - personalizing>

The four indictments handed down that named John and Patsy Ramsey responsible for the murder of their child by probable cause. And…they know the killer,

And all that means is that the prosecutors can take that to trial where it will actually be determined. If they have enough evidence of course (and they didn't in this case).

The Grand Jury is a trial, with no resulting, absolute, (pending appeal) verdict.

No, it's not.

You keep quoting Morrissey, but Kane was the lead and has publicly stated on more then one occasion, that the Ramsey’s are guilty. And BPD has never cleared Patsy, John or Burke Ramsey as suspects.

A lot of the people involved think the Ramseys are guilty. It's irrelevant. Kane and the BPD couldn't get a Grand Jury to indict on the majority of charges, including the most important ones. And the few they did get indictments on, the evidence was so weak even a Grand Juror said he wouldn't convict based on it.

Patsy had boots that were reportedly lined with beaver fur. Police wanted to test them, the Ramseys never handed them over.

I've never seen it rise above the level of guessing that she had beaver fur on a pair of boots. Either way, they scouted the closets for hairs and fibers and found nothing.

It makes little sense why she would hand over the boots given that she had no issue handing over the jacket (with the red fibers). And that brings us to the most absurd notion in my view. Did Patsy decide to put on outerwear before staging her daughter's SA and murder? Why?

There’s an interesting theory about the tape possibly having come from one of the American Girl dolls.

That one is less than nothing in my view. An anonymous person not only claiming that the duct tape on an American Girl doll was a standard procedure, but that John had ordered a new doll to be sent to his work, after the murder. They provided no evidence for any of this, and no part of it has ever been substantiated. From my experience, with a popular toy like that, if there was an actual recommended procedure that involved taping the strings to the back, it would be mentioned somewhere online - yet the only place I can find it is where people reference this anonymous person.

 

[GRT]

The White’s immediately cooperated. They gave hair, blood for DNA testing and sat for interviews. They were actually “cleared” and named as witnesses, not suspects by various LE 3 times.

Only under great pressure from the Whites. Fleet threatened to sue them and wrote rambling, disjointed letters (with a writing voice much like the ransom note) to the Boulder newspaper and others. According to internal conversations, the BPD decided the safest thing to do was name them as witnesses, not suspects so that they could change that designation at any time in the future.

And, Fleet ran around the basement touching everything when he was supposed to be guarding the basement door -- plus, the Whites had a story about how JBR had soiled her underwear at the Whites earlier and and Fleet had changed them, so they pretty much covered all their bases about how Fleet's DNA, fingerprints, etc., could have been all over the child. Plus, he touched her dead body in the basement.

FDI

 

[GRT]

And BPD has never cleared Patsy, John or Burke Ramsey as suspects.

The DA cleared them. Unequivocally.

"To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry," Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy wrote in a letter to the child's father, John Ramsey. "No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion."

Keep in mind this came long after the earlier prosecutor declined to charge the Ramseys because the evidence behind the GJ indictments was just too weak.

Fleet was said not to be a "suspect" but rather a "witness" by the BPD. Three times, but only after he pressured him, threatened to sue, and wrote crazy letters to the media.

FDI

MOO

 

[AddieBoo]

Kolar blames BR for all 3 elements of the crime, head blow, SA, strangulation. Kolar eliminates PR as the abuser/killer based on his belief that PR is a loving and caring mother. This is in sharp contrast to Steve Thomas' view of PR as a pushy and insensitive stage-mother. Thomas, as lead investigator, interviewed PR at length and spoke with many people who knew her well. Kolar doesn't provide an explanation for disagreeing with ST.

Kolar uses supposed evidence of fecal material having been found on a candy box in JBR's bedroom and a feces stained pair of pajama bottoms also found in JBR's bedroom to tie BR as opposed to the 2 adults present in the home on the night of the homicide into the crime. But Kolar admits in his Reddit AMA that the box was never collected which means it couldn't have been tested and that the pajama bottoms have never been confirmed as belonging to BR.

Kolar does provide an additional source for PR's fibers being in the ligature and JBR's sheet being urine stained and emitting a strong odor.

Kolar also admits BR's teachers described as "normal" and that Susanne Bernhard described BR as exhibiting the kind of anxiety that comes from caring.

I’m wondering if after the initial indictments were handed down, considering the severity of the charges, were the Ramsey’s ever investigated by CPS regarding Burke and child abuse, dangerous environment etc?

 

[AddieBoo]

Patsy had boots that were reportedly lined with beaver fur. Police wanted to test them, the Ramseys never handed them over. There’s an interesting theory about the tape possibly having come from one of the American Girl dolls.

It’s so interesting that the morning of the murder, just before the RN was discovered, John Ramsey was taking a shower…and was in his underwear (wasn’t that a very cold December morning in Boulder) reading the RN…?
But Patsy remained in the clothes from the night before….

 

[AddieBoo]

It’s so interesting that the morning of the murder, just before the RN was discovered, John Ramsey was taking a shower…and was in his underwear (wasn’t that a very cold December morning in Boulder) reading the RN…?
But Patsy remained in the clothes from the night before….

John hands over to police Patsys legal pad the RN was written on…