Father says DNA could solve one of country’s biggest murder mysteries: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Tower]

A blow to the head is generally accepted to have killed JBR with the fake strangulation following. I'm not accusing PR but no one is above suspicion at this point. She was quite well known to have a quick temper and to be impatient. Heck, she didn't even have the patience to potty train her 6 year old fecally incontinent daughter, though she did spend a LOT of time and attention dyeing and styling JBR's hair, applying makeup, doing her costumes, teaching her to fawn for the judges, etc. One must have one's priorities in life after all....

I believe many of these speculations are not facts.

There are many conflicting opinions about the head blow first, then “fake” strangulation. No matter what the intent, the strangulation seems real, due to petechiae and other autopsy findings. I don’t think it’s clear which came first, unfortunately. That many hours later, it’s hard to pinpoint the order of events and experts disagree.

As I said in another post above, the true bill rules out the belief that anyone accidentally killed JBR, including a short-tempered PR, because first degree murder rules out a rage blow. The GJ had access to much more evidence than we have, so I don’t believe it was an impulsive crime.

We have discussed here that JBR wasn’t wiping well, but that is not at all the same as fecally incontinent or not potty-trained. It’s poor hygiene, but not the other two.

Many of the rumors you are referencing come from reports by the housekeeper who wanted money from the Ramseys and wanted to sell her book. She also may have been angry for coming under scrutiny by the police and media. If she was innocent, it’s understandable she would be upset at the Rs. I don’t believe she is an impartial source.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Thank you for this. So she worked something close to a year maybe at the ad agency? Do you know how long she kept that job, if at all, after she married John? Did she know John before she went to Atlanta or how they met? Any idea how long she worked at the computer company?

It was reported in a Women’s Magazine article that she worked for McCann Erickson for 5 years. She met John in Atlanta. They lived in the same apartment complex, he saw her one day thought she was pretty and pursued her.

 

[OneLove]

As the mom of a 6 yr old. She can use the potty perfectly fine on her own, but she does still ask for help wiping when she poops.
I’ve worked with a lot of kids over the years this is still pretty normal of 6. Just want to clarify that part.

The soiling her underwear though, at that age is certainly what’s not normal.

Hard to say for sure but often when kids feel like they have little control over their life, they will choose to cling at an abnormal control of one of two things, what goes on and what comes out.

In addition, kids who are abused can soil themselves to be less desirable to an abuser.

Amen to that. I've often thought JBR, had she lived, may have developed an eating disorder as she grew in an attempt to have control over something in her life. I can speak firsthand of what it does to a little girl to have your hair dyed and styled and dressed and trussed up for "show" as though you're breeding livestock at the county fair. And my first career was working with such girls, many who were sexually abused before they reached the age of 14 when they were brought to my emergency shelter.

 

[Tower]

This is patsys writing prior to the murder.

Well, in my opinion, that looks nothing at all like the ransom note. But I don’t think she would write in her normal hand when trying to throw people off her track.

Handwriting analysis is very problematic in my opinion. It is mostly used in court to determine if a legal signature is accurate (source: google stats in US court cases) because of all the reasons we are presenting here: you can mask your handwriting and it really cannot be conclusive evidence of a crime.

It’s fun to discuss, but it cannot prove who the killer is.

 

[sunspun]

No, I never see handwriting and think to myself that it's either male or female. That's the epitome of subjective. Another term for that is "junk science". Its evidence of "wishing" something was so.

Once again, I never said I was being scientific about that! I'm not using that as evidence or proof of something or whatever the heck you're thinking. Think of it as more of a personal anecdote maybe. I'm merely saying I think most female handwriting looks like it's written by a female and same for males. I'm not wishing for anything. (??) Just because I criticized your handwriting analyst as being too subjective and unscientific, that means you don't want to hear anything from me unless it's objective and scientific?
That's weird. Calm down. We're all just talking here.

 

[OneLove]

I believe many of these speculations are not facts.

There are many conflicting opinions about the head blow first, then “fake” strangulation. No matter what the intent, the strangulation seems real, due to petechiae and other autopsy findings. I don’t think it’s clear which came first, unfortunately. That many hours later, it’s hard to pinpoint the order of events and experts disagree.

As I said in another post above, the true bill rules out the belief that anyone accidentally killed JBR, including a short-tempered PR, because first degree murder rules out a rage blow. The GJ had access to much more evidence than we have, so I don’t believe it was an impulsive crime.

We have discussed here that JBR wasn’t wiping well, but that is not at all the same as fecally incontinent or not potty-trained. It’s poor hygiene, but not the other two.

Many of the rumors you are referencing come from reports by the housekeeper who wanted money from the Ramseys and wanted to sell her book. She also may have been angry for coming under scrutiny by the police and media. If she was innocent, it’s understandable she would be upset at the Rs. I don’t believe she is an impartial source.

Thank you for your insights. And wow, no accidental rage killing, huh? I cannot begin to fathom what the grand jury knows that leads them to believe the Ramseys intentionally caused JBR's death that night when they were to leave for Michigan early the next morning. And to leave such a sloppily done ransom note too!

Do you have a mental picture of what may have happened and why?

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Thank you for this. So she worked something close to a year maybe at the ad agency? Do you know how long she kept that job, if at all, after she married John? Did she know John before she went to Atlanta or how they met? Any idea how long she worked at the computer company?

I don’t know anything else about her career or how and when she met John but I think it’s all in her police interviews. Here’s a link to John and patsys 1997, 98 and 2000 police interviews. There’s a lot of information in them. They’re quite lengthy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/5b07wc/john_patsys_police_interview_transcripts

 

[OneLove]

Once again, I never said I was being scientific about that! I'm not using that as evidence or proof of something or whatever the heck you're thinking. Think of it as more of a personal anecdote maybe. I'm merely saying I think most female handwriting looks like it's written by a female and same for males. I'm not wishing for anything. (??) Just because I criticized your handwriting analyst as being too subjective and unscientific, that means you don't want to hear anything from me unless it's objective and scientific?
That's weird. Calm down. We're all just talking here.

I dont have a handwriting analyst. I don't even put a great deal of stock in it though it seems prudent to acknowledge similarities where they are found. I did find it quirky to discount the analysts though while believing you, or anyone for that matter, can determine male from female writing. In any event, I have no wish to turn this forum into a venue for arguing the merit of anyone's point of view. I think we all want justice for JBR and I will keep my compass set in that direction.

 

[OneLove]

I don’t know anything else about her career or how and when she met John but I think it’s all in her police interviews. Here’s a link to John and patsys 1997, 98 and 2000 police interviews. There’s a lot of information in them. They’re quite lengthy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/5b07wc/john_patsys_police_interview_transcripts

Thank you very much for this!! This should keep me busy for awhile (and my trap shut too while i catch up and refresh )

 

[Tower]

You tend to comment in absolutes.

"Patsy didn't write the note". "The Ramsey's didn't kill JonBenet". "bill McReynolds apparently scored a closer match but was ruled out due to his ill health. Linda Hoffman Pugh is another one who apparently scored a closer match but was ruled out because she had an alibi of being asleep."

These statements make it sound as if they were the only reasons for being ruled out, ill health and an alibi of sleep. Perhaps that's not what you intended, but that's what it sounded like.

Again, if 5 points means no match, 4.5 means that person cannot unequivocally be ruled out. Also again, the 5 point scale is not even widely used anymore because it has not been found to be accurate. There were only a few of the examiners in this case that counted on the scale to represent their findings. What I find far more significant, is that out of the 74 persons who gave samples, Patsy was the only one who could not be ruled out. You may think that her 4.5 score rules her out, but the facts are that it does not. An almost is not good enough.

There does not need to be a motive if there was a horrific accident caused by a moment of uncontrolled rage. The duct tape and cord were not found in the home, that is not proof that they were never there. The sheets on JB's bed had a strong smell of urine, but I don't really think that was a factor. We have only Patsy's word as to what she put JB to bed in, and even that she told two different stories about.

JB's blood was found on her white blanket and the most amount of her blood was found on the pink barbie nightgown, suggesting that may actually be what she was wearing that night before she was wiped down and her clothing changed. Fibers from John's shirt were found in her labia. Patsy's fibers from what she was wearing that night were found in the blanket, in the cord, on the sticky part of the duct tape and in her paint tote.

The foreign DNA may or may not be significant. More than one person's DNA was found, and most if it was mixed with JB's own blood. After more than two decades, there has never been a hit from the DNA uploaded to CODIS. If this person were the crazy pedophile as has been suggested, it's highly unlikely that no further crimes were committed and that this person is so adept as to never, ever leave evidence behind at any crime scene.

I am absolutely open to scenarios that promote an intruder did this. To date however, there is no compelling evidence to even come close to proving that theory. The Grand Jury rejected the intruder theory. The Grand Jury were convinced that Patsy wrote the note. The Grand Jury did not thing the DNA evidence was convincing or profound. And they saw evidence and heard testimony that we have not. They believed the parents were responsible.

The Grand Jury appears to have rejected the impulsive accidental death theory. First degree murder is premeditated.

 

[AddieBoo]

You bring some good points to the table. The Consult podcast is pretty good, interesting for sure.

I think criminal profiling is another tool in the toolbox used to assist in certain cases that may have some value, but many look at it as they do lie detector tests as being pseudoscientific. It's a very broad indication of the type of person who may have committed the given crime. It cannot pinpoint the probability that someone who may fit the profile was actually capable of committing the crime being investigated or not, nor can profiling rule anyone out with any certainty even though they might not fit the profile.

I think it's also worth mentioning that the FBI has been assisting in the Ramsey case since day one. They have not even come close to ruling out the Ramseys as being incapable of committing this crime.

I just watched an interview on Youtube with a Grand Juror on the case. It tells a lot. He stated out clearly that they did not buy the intruder theory presented by Lou, and believed the 3 handwriting experts who believed the ransom note was most probably written by Patsy. They left no room for the idea that someone else outside of the house did this crime.

They had the opportunity to visit the house. They had a chance to see and hear about evidence that we never have. They based their conclusions on the evidence and facts.

So I believe the jurors on this case - it was an inside job.

RSBM

Very true. But, there was never enough evidence to charge them with child abuse or accessory, much less murder.

Because of the seriousness of the indictments - the felony child abuse leading to death…
Burke was still at home, with his parents…
Did CPS ever investigate the Ramsey’s in regards to Burkes well- being and safety? Were the Ramseys required to be cleared somehow to keep their son in their custody?

 

[CloudedTruth]

Because of the seriousness of the indictments - the felony child abuse leading to death…
Burke was still at home, with his parents…
Did CPS ever investigate the Ramsey’s in regards to Burkes well- being and safety? Were the Ramseys required to be cleared somehow to keep their son in their custody?

The interview with the child psychologist was a requirement of DPS, triggered by the report of the coroner that a death / murder had occurred in the house with a minor present. The Ramseys agreed to it because Burke could have been temporarily removed from their custody if they had not agreed to allow the interview.

 

[Tower]

Thank you for your insights. And wow, no accidental rage killing, huh? I cannot begin to fathom what the grand jury knows that leads them to believe the Ramseys intentionally caused JBR's death that night when they were to leave for Michigan early the next morning. And to leave such a sloppily done ransom note too!

Do you have a mental picture of what may have happened and why?

“Murder in the First Degree” is very telling, imo. I have always thought the sex ring idea is nuts, but recently I’ve wondered if the parents knew she had been harmed and abused by a close adult sometime in December and didn’t take it seriously enough.

So the Grand Jury is saying they are recommending indicting the parents as accessories to an adult who planned to kill her. My theory has a million holes, no clear suspect and still sounds a lot more like second degree murder.

Why would anyone actually plan to kill this little girl? Makes no sense. I’m stumped. Do I throw out the Grand Jury true bills as unimportant? After 13 months reviewing the prosecution’s evidence that I can’t see? That seems wrong.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The Grand Jury appears to have rejected the impulsive accidental death theory. First degree murder is premeditated.

Here’s the rub with that though. The coroner listed the first cause of death was the strangulation, associated with craniocerebral trauma. IMO this leaves the door open for interpretation. The head blow could have been accidental. The strangulation which actually did cause her death was done intentionally.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Thank you for your insights. And wow, no accidental rage killing, huh? I cannot begin to fathom what the grand jury knows that leads them to believe the Ramseys intentionally caused JBR's death that night when they were to leave for Michigan early the next morning. And to leave such a sloppily done ransom note too!

Do you have a mental picture of what may have happened and why?

My personal opinion is that it was a combination of both accidental and intentional. This is part of why there was no very clear conclusion.
The blow to the head could have been an accident caused by a moment of rage. It was followed by a cover up which included staging to make it look like a SA that resulted in her death by strangulation. That was intentional. And that was done instead of calling for medical assistance after the blow to the head. They denied her medical assistance and engaged in a cover up which included strangulation possibly to mimic a sex game gone wrong. IMO this explains the charges they were indicted on.

 

[Val1943]

JonBenét Ramsey: Geraldo Rivera apologizes to her dad for mock trial​

https://www.newsnationnow.com/cuomo-show/jonbenet-ramsey-geraldo-rivera-mock-trial/

 

[AddieBoo]

The interview with the child psychologist was a requirement of DPS, triggered by the report of the coroner that a death / murder had occurred in the house with a minor present. The Ramseys agreed to it because Burke could have been temporarily removed from their custody if they had not agreed to allow the interview.

But nothing following the GJ…?

 

[CloudedTruth]

But nothing following the GJ…?

No. Because the DA decided not to prosecute. There’s been some back and forth on that decision, the thought that it was the correct decision because they thought they wouldn’t get a conviction. Which is arguably valid. But no one ever mentions Burke having to remain in the custody of parents indicted on two counts each of responsibility for the death of their other child as a result.

 

[GRT]

Because of the seriousness of the indictments - the felony child abuse leading to death…
Burke was still at home, with his parents…
Did CPS ever investigate the Ramsey’s in regards to Burkes well- being and safety? Were the Ramseys required to be cleared somehow to keep their son in their custody?

I don't remember them considering Burke to be in any danger. I don't remember any talk of CPS being involved.

But you do bring up a good point--if LE thought the Ramseys killed their own daughter--wouldn't Burke have been yanked out of that house the day JBR died?

 

[GRT]

No. Because the DA decided not to prosecute. There’s been some back and forth on that decision, the thought that it was the correct decision because they thought they wouldn’t get a conviction. Which is arguably valid. But no one ever mentions Burke having to remain in the custody of parents indicted on two counts each of responsibility for the death of their other child as a result.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the true bill would have been enough to pull the child out. I think those decisions lie with CPS.

I think CPS can remove a child just on suspicion. Now, I feel like I need to look into this further. I wonder if CPS ever looked at this case.