FL- 12 Story Condo Partial Building Collapse, many still unaccounted for, Miami, 24 June 2021 #2

[Dontknow?]

Death toll rises to 94 in Florida building collapse, work to identify victims grows harder

"Recovery at this point is yielding human remains" as opposed to bodies, making the process to identify victims more difficult, Miami-Dade County Mayor Daniella Levine Cava said.

Death toll rises to 94 in Florida building collapse, work to identify victims grows harder

(I can't find the link but believe on Friday they said press conference updates would be held once per day.)

 

[Hope32]

It looks like according to my records we have now had 80 names (including 2 redacted) released at this time. May the families start the healing.
The speed they are going is amazing with how they are going very very slowly to collect everything.
I think that anyone who blames the residents because of price aren't cool. Looking at property records and all many of the people do not necessarily have to a stake in the building. There are at least 3 family units that were in the states to get their COVID vaccinations. There are also a lot trusts listed as the owners which they could be leased out and the owners have very little contact with the building.

Overall, this is simply a terrible tragedy. I don't really think blame can be fully placed on any one person, but it's a overall falling through. Everyone lost their whole lives and belonging no matter if they lost their lives or not.

 

[IQuestion]

"Attorneys for the family of Harold Rosenberg, who remains unaccounted for, filed the suit Wednesday, alleging that after Morabito completed the 2018 structural analysis it should have submitted a written report to the town of Surfside certifying that the condo was structurally safe.

“The Morabito report did not certify that the building ‘is structurally and electrically safe … for continued occupancy,'” the suit states.
“Instead, in an apparent attempt to wash away its failures in the wake of this tragedy, Defendant Morabito submitted this report … approximately 16 hours after the Champlain Towers South building collapsed,” the suit states, referring to a document that firm president Frank Morabito filed with Surfside on June 24, the day the building fell. "
Champlain Towers South engineering firm failed to keep occupants safe, lawsuit alleges | NewsChannel 3-12
Whoa...some pretty harsh claims being made. In a sense, the HOA Board were not the ones who paid for
the report...it was paid by the monthly fees they collected from the owners? At what point does any structural engineer, contractor, electrician etc contact the municipality when/if they realize the building they are inspecting poses a threat to the community or the occupants? MC did not have the ability or power to order an evacuation...only the city did, right? And, the city had the same 2018 reports, right?

 

[indicolite22]

@MiamiDadePD

We have identified nine additional victims that sadly and unexpectedly lost their lives in the tragic Surfside building collapse. Please keep their families and loved ones in your prayers.

Pittsburgh Native And Her Husband Still Unaccounted For After Surfside Condo Collapse

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article252403113.html

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/27/fri...ad-and-missing-in-florida-condo-collapse.html

Is Lisa Rosenberg the same person as Malky Weiss or is she another relative? They are the same age. Malky was the daughter of Harry Rosenberg.

'He went through hell': Relocated widower among the missing in Surfside condo collapse

 

[drama_farmer]

"Attorneys for the family of Harold Rosenberg, who remains unaccounted for, filed the suit Wednesday, alleging that after Morabito completed the 2018 structural analysis it should have submitted a written report to the town of Surfside certifying that the condo was structurally safe.

“The Morabito report did not certify that the building ‘is structurally and electrically safe … for continued occupancy,'” the suit states.
“Instead, in an apparent attempt to wash away its failures in the wake of this tragedy, Defendant Morabito submitted this report … approximately 16 hours after the Champlain Towers South building collapsed,” the suit states, referring to a document that firm president Frank Morabito filed with Surfside on June 24, the day the building fell. "
Champlain Towers South engineering firm failed to keep occupants safe, lawsuit alleges | NewsChannel 3-12
Whoa...some pretty harsh claims being made. In a sense, the HOA Board were not the ones who paid for
the report...it was paid by the monthly fees they collected from the owners? At what point does any structural engineer, contractor, electrician etc contact the municipality when/if they realize the building they are inspecting poses a threat to the community or the occupants? MC did not have the ability or power to order an evacuation...only the city did, right? And, the city had the same 2018 reports, right?

One thing you can count on with the language used in lawsuits... Regardless of what the official findings will be... it's definitely the fault of the named defendant!

 

[sds71]

Is Lisa Rosenberg the same person as Malky Weiss ?


'He went through hell': Relocated widower among the missing in Surfside condo collapse

yes

Surfside Florida building collapse: Body of Lakewood woman found

Baltimore Jewish Life | BDE: After Discovery of Husband, Z'L, Malky Weisz, A”H, of Lakewood Identified; Couple’s Levaya To Be Held In Lakewood

Shiva information for Sara Rachel Rosenberg, mother of Malki Weisz A"H - LNN news

 

[Hope32]

Is Lisa Rosenberg the same person as Malky Weiss or is she another relative? They are the same age. Malky was the daughter of Harry Rosenberg.

'He went through hell': Relocated widower among the missing in Surfside condo collapse

That's what I am trying to figure out as well. I know that Harry (Chaim) Rosenberg recently lost his wife to cancer last year or earlier this year I believe. But he just recently moved to Florida to start over. It's also confusing because people have been reported missing using their Jewish/Chabad names as well as their Americanized names. But all reports that I read Malky Weisz goes by that name Malky.

ETA: The Miami Herald database I look at as well still has her listed as missing. With Lisa Rosenberg listed as well for recovered.

 

[GatorFL]

It looks like according to my records we have now had 80 names (including 2 redacted) released at this time. May the families start the healing.
The speed they are going is amazing with how they are going very very slowly to collect everything.
I think that anyone who blames the residents because of price aren't cool. Looking at property records and all many of the people do not necessarily have to a stake in the building. There are at least 3 family units that were in the states to get their COVID vaccinations. There are also a lot trusts listed as the owners which they could be leased out and the owners have very little contact with the building.

Overall, this is simply a terrible tragedy. I don't really think blame can be fully placed on any one person, but it's a overall falling through. Everyone lost their whole lives and belonging no matter if they lost their lives or not.

BBM: You're making an assumption with the trusts. Lots of people own their residences via a trust. It's an asset management thing.

 

[Hope32]

BBM: You're making an assumption with the trusts. Lots of people own their residences via a trust. It's an asset management thing.

Yes I did make an assumption, but just that they could be renting it out as well. I know it's used for asset management. I was just pointing out that some of the one's held in trust could be used by "snowbirds" from up north that aren't necessarily there 300+ days. It is just something that may have happened. When it comes to the the delay in repairs or costs and where some fault may lay. It could be that they do live there presently. Unfortunately we may not know for some time, but it was just a possible reason for non-urgency for residents.

ETA: this was also in response to a previous post that stated the resident's may not have known the urgency in needing repairs.

It would be like blaming someone who died in a car crash because they voted against a tax increase to fund infrastructure improvement.

Had the residents known the true condition of the building it might have been different but they were unaware. by IceIce9, Today at 2:25 PM

 

[MimosaMornings]

BBM: You're making an assumption with the trusts. Lots of people own their residences via a trust. It's an asset management thing.

More common with retirees? To avoid probate and inheritance taxes?
I don’t know anyone in my age bracket that would think ahead to put their home in a trust upon purchase. Interesting.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

More common with retirees? To avoid probate and inheritance taxes?
I don’t know anyone in my age bracket that would think ahead to put their home in a trust upon purchase. Interesting.

The main reason individuals put their home in a living trust is to avoid the costly and lengthy probate process at death. Leaving real estate assets to a spouse or children in a will causes those assets to pass through probate. =Time/court/expense. This becomes especially important if you own real estate in multiple states. Moo

ETA: Also, trusts are private (think Michael Jackson ) so no one knows where the money/property goes... whereas probate is public.

 

[Warwick1991]

"Attorneys for the family of Harold Rosenberg, who remains unaccounted for, filed the suit Wednesday, alleging that after Morabito completed the 2018 structural analysis it should have submitted a written report to the town of Surfside certifying that the condo was structurally safe.

“The Morabito report did not certify that the building ‘is structurally and electrically safe … for continued occupancy,'” the suit states.
“Instead, in an apparent attempt to wash away its failures in the wake of this tragedy, Defendant Morabito submitted this report … approximately 16 hours after the Champlain Towers South building collapsed,” the suit states, referring to a document that firm president Frank Morabito filed with Surfside on June 24, the day the building fell. "
Champlain Towers South engineering firm failed to keep occupants safe, lawsuit alleges | NewsChannel 3-12
Whoa...some pretty harsh claims being made. In a sense, the HOA Board were not the ones who paid for
the report...it was paid by the monthly fees they collected from the owners? At what point does any structural engineer, contractor, electrician etc contact the municipality when/if they realize the building they are inspecting poses a threat to the community or the occupants? MC did not have the ability or power to order an evacuation...only the city did, right? And, the city had the same 2018 reports, right?

We will see a lot of lawsuits, some with more merit than others. From what I can see, there are many facets to what happened - construction and design defects, a failure to investigate and repair the building at an early stage, the aggressive (and changing) coastal environment, and the pile driving for the new building next door. The report from NIST should be very informative. IMO, Morabito has far less culpability than the other parties involved, but he will be a target because he carries liability insurance and is still an operating concern. The condominium association board, IMO, had much greater responsibility. They had owner pushback, but that didn't relieve them of the responsibility to do the right thing. The town of Surfside had an inadequate building department - there were permits over the years for work in this building, and many opportunities for an inspector to see the problems. Some municipalities might have condemned the building. Surfside is a very small town - inspecting all high rises and oceanfront buildings could have been done with regularity.

The condominium association board is the body that hired Morabito, and under FL law, they are the ones who have the right and the fiduciary responsibility to act on behalf of the owners. The condominium association board was Morabito's client, and the report was prepared for them. The owners don't hire these services directly; it is an elected board that acts on behalf of all owners. The association board had the responsibility to address needed repairs, no matter how painful they were financially, and to communicate the contents of the report to the owners. It does seem as if the report was shared with the town of Surfside building department. It also seems as if conditions worsened greatly since Morabito's 2018 report. When they took the core samples, there was the realization that things had worsened considerably. Given the relative indifference of the town, what could Morabito expect if he tried to involve the town? The best he could do was to alert the board to the worsened conditions and advise them to proceed with repairs ASAP.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

While we have some information out there, much still we don't have yet through media FOIA. e.g.

1. Interview of the security guy (since this is not criminal LE matter, will this ever be released/covered by FOIA?)
   
2. Interviews of others (since this is not criminal LE matter, will this ever be released/covered by FOIA?)
   
3. 911 calls - Not a one has been released. All of them that evening with times needed to buttress preliminary working timeframe (will they ever release those of deceased persons, citing sensitivities to such?)
4. Surveillance camera feed, including exact time transmissions ceased

Not sure what else that we may have to wait ??months/years for the final report to be done (interesting that the judge told the conservator he wants it all wrapped up in a year.... even before final NIST report?)

 

[ilovewings]

We will see a lot of lawsuits, some with more merit than others. From what I can see, there are many facets to what happened - construction and design defects, a failure to investigate and repair the building at an early stage, the aggressive (and changing) coastal environment, and the pile driving for the new building next door. The report from NIST should be very informative. IMO, Morabito has far less culpability than the other parties involved, but he will be a target because he carries liability insurance and is still an operating concern. The condominium association board, IMO, had much greater responsibility. They had owner pushback, but that didn't relieve them of the responsibility to do the right thing. The town of Surfside had an inadequate building department - there were permits over the years for work in this building, and many opportunities for an inspector to see the problems. Some municipalities might have condemned the building. Surfside is a very small town - inspecting all high rises and oceanfront buildings could have been done with regularity.

The condominium association board is the body that hired Morabito, and under FL law, they are the ones who have the right and the fiduciary responsibility to act on behalf of the owners. The condominium association board was Morabito's client, and the report was prepared for them. The owners don't hire these services directly; it is an elected board that acts on behalf of all owners. The association board had the responsibility to address needed repairs, no matter how painful they were financially, and to communicate the contents of the report to the owners. It does seem as if the report was shared with the town of Surfside building department. It also seems as if conditions worsened greatly since Morabito's 2018 report. When they took the core samples, there was the realization that things had worsened considerably. Given the relative indifference of the town, what could Morabito expect if he tried to involve the town? The best he could do was to alert the board to the worsened conditions and advise them to proceed with repairs ASAP.

If I was a family member of someone deceased I would wait a while to file a lawsuit, until I had more information. There really is no rush to file a suit right now. There is a statute of limitations, probably 2-3 years, and while I would not wait that long, I would really want more information from documents and witnesses that will describe the months and weeks leading up to the collapse.

 

[Warwick1991]

The NIST report should be very informative. One of the most impressive structural failure reports that I'm aware of is the analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center towers after the 9/11 attacks. Despite the destruction and lack of intact structural members to analyze, they produced a superb computer model of the sequence of failures and analyzed the damage from the impact, burning aviation fuel and how various building components behaved. I'd expect they will be able to answer a lot of questions. They will model the collapse, pinpointing its beginning and the structural capacity of the members that failed. There should be enough to examine. My only question is how they would estimate any damage from the pile driving for the adjacent new building. It might be possible, though. They will have the depth and location of the piles along with the soil properties, and there may be data or logs that still exists. Pile driving, depending on the soil type, can cause lateral forces similar to an earthquake in some situations.

Many people can make educated guesses about the collapse, but a lot of research is needed. Missing rebar, deteriorated concrete from water damage, possible lateral forces from the pile driving - there will be a lot of contributing factors to investigate. I think it will be important to understand the source of the fires as well.

I'd agree that it is premature to file a lawsuit.

 

[IQuestion]

I noticed a large area on the first floor, directly above the parking entrance, filmed with partial collapse and water flowing from the ceiling of the garage. (between letters L-M on the diagram) It is labeled Emergency Generator Room. Isn't it close, literally catty corner (across the hall) from Mrs. Nir's apt? (Mrs. Nir, you are one brave lady.) Did the "emergency generator activate" that night before the collapse? Who would know... 24 hour physical or remote maintenance monitoring? What kind of noise does it make if activated?
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/ac4b4c00-6165-43c9-942d-261a68f8cdcd-jpeg.304431/
Major forehead slap. (that stung)...the light in the room above the garage entrance, video'd from the 88th St side...isn't that the generator room? Is that the only one ( ie. generator location?)
Where does it fit in this series of cataclysmic events? If it didn't go on, why not? If it did go on, when? Videos, eye witness narratives, snapshots, cell phone data, even utility meter activity should provide an accurate timeline.

 

[CrimeAway]

The NIST report should be very informative. One of the most impressive structural failure reports that I'm aware of is the analysis of the collapse of the World Trade Center towers after the 9/11 attacks. Despite the destruction and lack of intact structural members to analyze, they produced a superb computer model of the sequence of failures and analyzed the damage from the impact, burning aviation fuel and how various building components behaved. I'd expect they will be able to answer a lot of questions. They will model the collapse, pinpointing its beginning and the structural capacity of the members that failed. There should be enough to examine. My only question is how they would estimate any damage from the pile driving for the adjacent new building. It might be possible, though. They will have the depth and location of the piles along with the soil properties, and there may be data or logs that still exists. Pile driving, depending on the soil type, can cause lateral forces similar to an earthquake in some situations.

Many people can make educated guesses about the collapse, but a lot of research is needed. Missing rebar, deteriorated concrete from water damage, possible lateral forces from the pile driving - there will be a lot of contributing factors to investigate. I think it will be important to understand the source of the fires as well.

I'd agree that it is premature to file a lawsuit.

@Warwick1991,
with respect to the pile driving, do you know of any existing research that has studied the impact of such actions (which I'm assuming depends on soil type, bedrock, proximity to nearby structures, depth and rate of pilings etc.)?

IF the pile driving is found to be a factor in the collapse, would developers/contractors/government be required to monitor effects of such activity on surrounding structures in the future?

 

[Warwick1991]

@Warwick1991,
with respect to the pile driving, do you know of any existing research that has studied the impact of such actions (which I'm assuming depends on soil type, bedrock, proximity to nearby structures, depth and rate of pilings etc.)?

IF the pile driving is found to be a factor in the collapse, would developers/contractors/government be required to monitor effects of such activity on surrounding structures in the future?

There are a lot of research papers and foundation engineering textbooks that discuss pile driving and pile foundation design. Generally, pile driving is monitored with seismographs, and there are methods of verifying how deep the pile went. In most situations, pile driving is monitored for damage to surrounding structures. However, at Champlain Towers South, the pile driving for the new building was in another municipality, Miami Beach. IMO this caused an inspection, permitting and code enforcement problem, because there was no coordination between Miami Beach and Surfside.

 

[Warwick1991]

I noticed a large area on the first floor, directly above the parking entrance, filmed with partial collapse and water flowing from the ceiling of the garage. (between letters L-M on the diagram) It is labeled Emergency Generator Room. Isn't it close, literally catty corner (across the hall) from Mrs. Nir's apt? (Mrs. Nir, you are one brave lady.) Did the "emergency generator activate" that night before the collapse? Who would know... 24 hour physical or remote maintenance monitoring? What kind of noise does it make if activated?
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/ac4b4c00-6165-43c9-942d-261a68f8cdcd-jpeg.304431/
Major forehead slap. (that stung)...the light in the room above the garage entrance, video'd from the 88th St side...isn't that the generator room? Is that the only one?
Where does it fit in this series of cataclysmic events? If it didn't go on, why not? If it did go on, when? Videos, eye witness narratives, snapshots, cell phone data, even utility meter activity should provide an accurate timeline.

The water or failing structure may have short circuited electrical panels, and the generator didn’t activate as designed.

 

[IQuestion]

There are a lot of research papers and foundation engineering textbooks that discuss pile driving and pile foundation design. Generally, pile driving is monitored with seismographs, and there are methods of verifying how deep the pile went. In most situations, pile driving is monitored for damage to surrounding structures. However, at Champlain Towers South, the pile driving for the new building was in another municipality, Miami Beach. IMO this caused an inspection, permitting and code enforcement problem, because there was no coordination between Miami Beach and Surfside.

Okay, I just had to know how annoying a pile driver could be....dare all of ya' to not be irritated after 1 minute. Be sure to turn up the volume to get the full effect