FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #3

[UK Sleuth]

Blimey Myserty you have been following cricket a long time!!!!

I agree none of us are gonna get anywhere on this as we know less than LE and they seem to have gotten no further in the last year.

I think this is left's point that with no progress its time to show your hand no matter if its a poor one.

I pray to god the investigation has moved on behind the scenes.

Jennifers website expressly states the investigation is still very active, I really do hope so.

 

[leftcoast]

As far as respecting LE, I too have respect for them. Every year of my life, an immediate family member has been in LE. So, I have been around it all of my life. This case isn't about who has respect for LE. I call it like I see it.

Ask any cop, and they will tell you that their are guys in the department who are very good, while other's are clueless. It is a fact. Just like every other government job. Plus, this case does not get priority over a confirmed homicide. After all, JK is still listed as missing/suspicious circumstances. It is not a confirmed homicide case. It has just been assigned to homicide, for obvious reasons.

Explain to me how showing the picture of the car being parked is going to hurt this investigation?

Nobody is expecting miracles, we all make mistakes. But, for the life of me, why won't somebody re-check the POI height estimate? It is the main clue. Do you really think I am that big of an idiot to keep on requesting it re-checked unless I have tested, and re-tested my estimate, over and over again? Attaching a rope to the camera, and extending it to the spot where the POI stood is "not" the best way to estimate the height. If a professional surveyor, or an independent team went out and checked the estimate, I will forever shut up and apologize for being wrong. YOu have my word.

I think LE had a pre-conceived notion that the POI was short, and their method backed up their theory.

As for CM, UK is right. His theory doesn't hold up. Why put JK in a van, move her car, drive a mile, walk back, and then hold her in the van all day. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You would think you would want to get away from the scene, with the evidence, as soon as possible.

BTW, This is the United States, land of the free, the country with zero censorship, and accordingly, CM should have been allowed to post. When we start censoring people's views, when does it stop, and who decides what is offensive, versus just something we don't agree with.

Either the perp. was in JK's car with her, or he lives or works in the complex and moved the car to throw off investigators. imo

Mystery, I agree with you. Once ruled out, don't parents of missing children or adults deserve to know the status of the investigation.

How in the world can you sleep when someone in your family is missing?

I can't sleep worrying about my health, bills, family, etc. I just don't know how the Kesse's could cope.

Just think, by some accounts, there are over 100,000 missing people in the United States, staggering.

I sure hope that POi dirtbag has a heart and decides to give it up.

left

 

[leftcoast]

I agree the police generally do a great job but when they mess a case up they usually make a good job of that too.
It is incredibly difficult to solve a case when you don't have a body, a crime scene or a motive.

Mystery:

You have a good way of getting it right, and to the point.

AS for motive, isn't there a 99% chance of what the motive is?

You are right about no body, crime scene, but, we do have a picture of the POI, a picture of the car being parked, and a scent of the driver.

left

ps It would be interesting to know what time the mail is delivered at HOTG. I've seen several different videos, stills, etc. and it seems the US mail truck is parked at HOTg on each occasion. Has anyone ever asked him or her about witnessing JK's car being parked? And is this the same mail carrier that works Mosaic? Could be a good source of info.

 

[UK Sleuth]

Good one about the mail man Left.

Had JKs post arrived that morning if there was any?
Did the mailman get the impression she was there?
Lights on, TV on etc.

As an aside thinking more about the actual abduction there seems to be a lot of thought around about 'how could she vanish without anyone seeing anything?'

I think at times we over estimate abductions as some slick manouveres that last a few seconds, some probably are.

If you compare to the Suzy Lamplugh case here she was seen arguing with a man outside the house she had supposed to be showing to a client.

She didnt just vanish in micro seconds but in the middle of West London(a busy place) only one person in the whole street saw something and even then they couldnt provide a detailed description of the man so they didnt pay that much attention.

Minding your own business unfortuantely is all too common 'dont get involved' seems to be the way of things.

Im not saying there were any witnesses but I dont think just because nobody saw or heard anything we should necessarily assume that the abduction took place in an instant as in the bundled into a van scenario.

Just some more thoughts!

 

[Myserty64]

UK,

I believe abductions are quick and often violent because time is of the essence. Abductions don't happen in slow motion and there is also the surprise element.
However if the abduction was by someone she knew and knew well then that is a different matter. Jennifer wouldn't have even realised it was an abduction at first. There are many people who believe this crime was committed by a person she knew. There are just as many people who believe the POI is not the perpetrator.

I have to grant you the fact that abductions do go wrong. Anyway your theories are as good as mine. (or better!)

On Suzy Lamplugh I recently read where a suspect had told a woman he was dating that Suzy was buried under concrete. He also put his hands around this persons throat and stated this is how she died. He is a nasty piece of work. IMO.

Left,

You are very passionate about the POI's height being wrong. I read your post that detailed your case (a few pages back) and you make a very good case.
I think it's a great pity we don't get to communicate with our police officers. They are there to protect us but it would be nice if we could talk and throw some ideas around.
It will never change I guess. Sometimes I wonder how many baffling crimes could be solved with a bit of good old fashioned round table talk. Most of us are on the side of the good guys.

 

[leftcoast]

Uk

thanks, but I need to clear something up

In the US, most apartments, condo's, etc, do not have mail service delivered to their door. I've never been to MOsaic, but, it would be quite unusual for there to be mail delivery at JK's door. (IF I am wrong, and anybody has been to Mosaic, please correct this post)

Instead, there are "cluster boxes", which contain about 30-50 aluminum boxes which contain mail. THe resident will stop at the location, usually within a few hundred feet from their condo, and will use a key to obtain his or her mail from their box.

Hence, the mailman would not normally be delivering at JK's door. However, after a while, the mail carriers start to recognize tenants and know quite a bit about what is transpiring in a neighborhood. TRust me, some of these mail carriers are like "town gossips".

That is why I thought maybe JK's mail carrier would have recognized the POI from delivering at JK's complex, or from being at HOTG.

AS far as giving the perp credit, you are correct. We all think the crimes are planned to the "t", when in many cases, they are poorly planned and people who witness these crimes are oblivious to what is happening. Usually, because they are talking on their cellphones. boy, do I hate cellphones.

So, I agree, somebody could have witnessed this abduction, but been clueless and missed out on making a difference.

left

 

[leftcoast]

UK,

Left,

You are very passionate about the POI's height being wrong. I read your post that detailed your case (a few pages back) and you make a very good case.
I think it's a great pity we don't get to communicate with our police officers. They are there to protect us but it would be nice if we could talk and throw some ideas around.
It will never change I guess. Sometimes I wonder how many baffling crimes could be solved with a bit of good old fashioned round table talk. Most of us are on the side of the good guys.

Thanks Mystery:

I appreciate you taking the time to read my argument, and going back to view the various video's which are available at the news station's website.

the first time I viewed the POI, back in early 2006, I thought he was hispanic, and very short. Then, I listened to others, and agreed he was wearing a hat, and was probably not hispanic, just wearing a black hat.

The key moment was when I noticed how high the fence really is, and how much lower the POI is as compared to the fence. In reality, the POI is basically standing in a one foot hole. Given this, everybody is going to look short.

Ya know, I usually keep to myself, and don't like to stir the pot. But, as some of you know, I have actually spent years investigating a cold case, and there is a 95% chance that my buddy and I have solved the case. In the case we investigated, the FBI agent never looked at a suspect, due to tunnel vision. Part of his theory, was that the suspect was too short (he was only two inches shorter than the estimate). Well, it turns out that when the witness estimated the suspect's height, the perp. was sitting down, which most people realize is not a good method of determining height. So, I have seen this mistake before.

yes, you are right. Too bad we can't contact LE.

I don't like to argue. But, when I do, 9 times out of 10, I do my homework so that I don't make an a-- out of myself. Again, I am only 90% certain. Also, I just don't like the way LE estimated the POI's height using a rope.

I see the case this way. LE has limited resources. They probably concentrated on people who fit their estimate of the POI's height. What if I am right, and he is much taller. Was there somebody who fit the profile, but, was not looked at due to him being tall. It could just answer this puzzle. gosh, I really do hope so. NOt just to be right, but, to get answers for the family, and get the POI off the street. Maybe, I am wrong, but, isn't it worth an hour of work to check.

left

 

[Myserty64]

I just want to mention something I have observed when researching cold cases.
In a number of cases the perpetrator is a 'one time' offender. Where the crimes were committed before DNA testing was available and the crime was unsolved and cold.......... decades may have passed before a perp could be arrested.
Often when the DNA results were run through data bases there were no matches. Detectives would then try to get DNA swabs from the suspects who were listed at the time of the crime and often the perp was on those lists.
They had never reoffended after their heinous crime.

I guess all I am trying to say is in the Jennifer Kesse case it could be a first time offender who never repeats the same type of crime.

 

[UK Sleuth]

Left thanks for info on mailman!

M64 regarding Suzy Lamplugh the suspect allegedly told his girlfriend he murdered Suzy and buried her in Norton Barracks in Worcestershire, he is also alleged to have told a fellow inmate the same story.

Another story is that he confessed he buried her under his mothers patio.

Who knows but I think we are pretty convinced he did it, he's already in prison for murder and I cant see him ever admitting it, on his deathbed perhaps.

You are correct over him being a nasty piece of work of course, I think he was/is in a Ted Bundy type mold a very charming handsome ladies man.

I wouldnt be surprised if he has a long line of victims and he has taunted police by at one time having a car with a number plate relating to Suzy, cant remember what it was now but something like SL 28/7/86 being her initials and her disappearance day.

Back to Jennifer I have to say I am pretty much out of any more thoughts at the present time, I have my theories as posted above, I hope someone takes this case on board properly, I hope that is LE but alternatively a pi or something!

 

[drumstick]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/drumstick_2006/POIPath-1.jpg

This link shows the path of the poi.
I know you have concerns about the correct measurement and the validity of his height.
This photo shows the gate where the poi was captured on film.
As you can see it's a straight road with no holes.
The concrete curb is about 4 inches.
It should have been fairly easy to measure the height of the poi.
I hope this helps in your discussion.

thanks again ~

IMO~

 

[crypto6]

Has this going away with b/f driven the perp to despair and then bam he's had to act as soon as she's back therefore its not as planned as we may think?

Imagine he has been observing her daily, his obsession growing and then she's gone for a while, its driven him crazy?
.

From early on this theory attracted me, for the reasons you mentioned. This doesn't seem a random snatching, although possible. Playing the odds, the timing is related to her trip somehow. The abduction seems from an obsessed stalker. This is why I continue to have a little part of my brain saying "She's still alive"

 

[UK Sleuth]

Yes I agree on that point I think a random abduction there's little chance of JK still being alive but someone who had become obsessed with her there is more chance she would be kept her alive.

You would say now it is more likely she isnt with us though, children are often held captive more than adults as they are easier to control, you would think that in the past 14 months JK may have had one or more chances to escape.

I would never give up hope, we can always hope for the Kesse's and dont forget Jennifer she is the poor one whom has/is suffering most.

This is a bizarre case so lets hope for a bizarre happy ending one where Jennifer is returned to her family.

 

[curves]

Hi folks, I have just spent the last couple of hours reading this thread(when I should have been working naughty naughty) and it occured to me that the transient theory is unlikey in my opinion because of the fact that the perp went to so much trouble to hide his tracks / Jenn / Jenn's body. If we work on the assumption that Jenn was taken as she walked to her car in the morning and we know that she wasn't with the POI when her car was dropped off, then why bother to go to the trouble of dropping it off somewhere if the perp had no connection to her or to her apartment complex? I would imagine that a transient would see a moment of oppertunity, take Jenn, do what it was he meant to do and then leave both the car and the body somewhere out of the city or under a bridge somewhere. If a transient did this, presumably he would have no fixed place to take Jenn so anywhere secluded would do. It is then likely to assume that he would leave the body and car at this secluded place and just walk away. The hardest crimes to solve are the ones where there is no connection between the victim and perp and it seems to me that everything about this case points away from that. Given, the perp would have left DNA, fibre everidence etc behind but if it really was a transient, it's unlikely LE would have been able to match that DNA and even if they could match it, a transient can go anywhere at any time so how likely is it that they would find him? Why would they go to such great lengths to make sure the body was never found and that the car was wiped clean and dumped elsewhere?

Like most of you I feel that whoever did this is someone closely connected to Jenn or to her apartment complex, someone who had a reason to go to all the trouble of hiding their tracks. I also think it was planned very very well and with that in mind, there is a higher chance that she was taken to be kept and that either she is still alive or she didn't die straight away. Obviously I hope she's still alive and will be found although I realise this is probably wishful thinking.

I think ex-boyfriends, male colleagues - past or present at the time, men who showed any sort of romantic interest in her should be looked at, as well as the workers from the complex, men who lived in the complex and the complex manager himself.

What if whoever took her was already in her car waiting for her? If they were lying down on the floor in the back seat she might not have seen them. If they then sat up after she had started driving and had a gun it could explain why no one saw anything. But then where did they go? It can't have been far as her petrol tank didn't reflect this and surely if he made her drive to his car or home and get out there someone would have seen something?

Maybe I am believing my own hype but with what I have written above, I would think this was a case of process of elimination. Start with the people who are connected to Jenn or the complex and then work the circle out until they find someone whose alibi doesn't fit.

I don't know, I guess if it was that easy they would have done that!

My 2 cents anyway...

 

[leftcoast]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/drumstick_2006/POIPath-1.jpg

This link shows the path of the poi.
I know you have concerns about the correct measurement and the validity of his height.
This photo shows the gate where the poi was captured on film.
As you can see it's a straight road with no holes.
The concrete curb is about 4 inches.
It should have been fairly easy to measure the height of the poi.
I hope this helps in your discussion.

thanks again ~

IMO~

Drumstick:

Actually, I think the measurement was a very difficult one. Regardless of whether it is correct or not. This is not an attack against LE. My professor at college had a plaque which read, "in god we trust, all other's we audit". Same type of theory here. Except lives are on the line.

When I said the POI was "basically" in a hole, it doesn't mean literally. What it means is that the POI is quite a distance lower than the plane of the gate. Which he is. You even admit such.

Not only is there a curb that you say is 4 inches, but there is a ramp which declines from the gate to the curb. It is impossible to measure from the human eye, but, it appears that the plane where the POI is walking, and the plane where the gate is fastened to the concrete cool deck, is approximately 9-12 inches different in height. If one wanted to measure the distance in height, it would be rather simple. You simply take a 2 X 4, lay it across the ground on the cool deck by the gate, have the 2 X 4 extend about ten feet onto the driveway where the POI was walking. Make sure the 2 X 4 is level, with of all things, a level, and simply measure the distance between the 2 X 4 and the driveway where the POi was walking.

IF you and everyone else has DSL, I gave a video link, which illustrates not only the difference in height, but, also how the CSI/orlando pd is attempting to estimate the height of the POI. These video's give a good view of the gate, the curb, etc.

Regardless of whether the height of the POI is accurate or not, it is in my opinion, a VERY difficult job to estimate the POI"s height for reasons I outlined in previous posts. There is such a thing as an optical illusion. Camera's which are high up will give the appearance that the subject is shorter than it appears. Camera's mounted on the ground will make subjects appear taller than actual. An exaggerated example is how when one goes to the top floor of a skyscraper, and looks straight down, the people look like ants. Same theory.

To further illustrate my point, a local gas station where I reside, actually has a height chart next to the front door of the store. It is rather unique. The purpose of the height chart, is to provide an accurate guage of the height of any potential armed robber, as they leave or enter the store. It appears that from experience, they too understand the importance and difficulting in obtaining a height estimate of a perp.

Even if estimating the height of the POI was a simple task, which it isn't, independently checking every detail in a case which is still unsolved 14 months later, is not a bad idea. Especially such an important measurement.

BTW, in the direction the POI is walking, it appears it is the same direction one would walk if headed south toward the edge of the property, and probably back toward Mosaic.

left

 

[leftcoast]

You would say now it is more likely she isnt with us though, children are often held captive more than adults as they are easier to control, you would think that in the past 14 months JK may have had one or more chances to escape.

I would never give up hope, we can always hope for the Kesse's and dont forget Jennifer she is the poor one whom has/is suffering most.

This is a bizarre case so lets hope for a bizarre happy ending one where Jennifer is returned to her family.

I agree UK. Good post. There have only been a few cases in US history when a person has been held captive and alive for a period of time. And trust me, the conditions these people lived in were not good.

The only potential good outcome is a very unique case, or a some type of miracle.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Curves:

Great post. You did a great job summarizing. I agree the transient theory is not as likely as a stalker, somebody who could be tied to JK.

While I agree with you, one possible reason why a transient would hide the body is if he is in CODIS, the DNA bank. Hence, he would be a convicted felon, and know all about prints, DNA, etc. On the other hand, you would think the last place the transient would return to is Mosaic. Maybe Greyhound, other side of town. etc.

However, I think you did a great job explaining your theory, and I must say I agree with what you said.

left

 

[UK Sleuth]

What if whoever took her was already in her car waiting for her? If they were lying down on the floor in the back seat she might not have seen them. If they then sat up after she had started driving and had a gun it could explain why no one saw anything. But then where did they go? It can't have been far as her petrol tank didn't reflect this and surely if he made her drive to his car or home and get out there someone would have seen something?

Great post curves I am in agreement with most of what you say the only thing I would disagree on is the above 'someone would have seen something'

If it were a planned attack as we believe then the perp would have planned where he was taking her and exposed himself to witnesses as little as possible.

Perhaps to his house and driving straight into a garage.
Perhaps just onto his drive and then into a house.

Remember it is highly likely the perp was armed in someway so Jennifer could have been controlled, two people getting out of a car and walking into a house or complex isnt necessarily going to arouse suspicion even if someone did see them unless jennifer intentionally attracted attention/shouted for help.

The way I see it is this:

Jennifer is kidnapped after her first day back from holiday - who knows her movements?

Jennifers car is found very close to her home.

Jennifers car has about the right amount of fuel in it(in other words it hasnt been driven far unless refuelled, unlikely more exposure for perp)

The poi walks back to Jennifers complex according to the bloodhound.

Jennifer had previously expressed concern about the workers at her complex, she felt uncomfortable.

Now if this isnt somebody local then I will eat my hat.

Of course I cannot be 100% certain on anything Im not arrogant but I just dont buy that some transient wandered into mosaic saw a pretty blonde and abducted her.

 

[curves]

Left: thanks for your feedback! I have been following your adventures with DB Cooper, good luck with that, it's very exciting!

UK: Thank you as well. You are absolutely right about the perp having Jenn drive into his garage or home, I didn't think of that.

If the guy was in the back seat of her car and made her drive to his house or similar, what if he then dumped her car and walked back to the complex because that was where he left his car? He had to get to the complex somehow and driving in, taking a quick look around, walking to Jenn's car and then picking the lock and getting in is perhaps less suspicous and risky then just walking in and picking the lock on her car. If there was anybody there he would have to loiter around instead of just sitting in his own car and pretending to be gathering his stuff etc. By that point he would also have had Jenn's keys so if we was going to keep her - and I am going out on a limb here - he could have gone into her apartment and gathered some of her clothes or beauty products, or removed any evidence that he felt even remotely pointed to him. Did LE ever say if anything was missing from her apartment?

 

[leftcoast]

Perhaps to his house and driving straight into a garage.
Perhaps just onto his drive and then into a house.

Remember it is highly likely the perp was armed in someway so Jennifer could have been controlled, two people getting out of a car and walking into a house or complex isnt necessarily going to arouse suspicion even if someone did see them unless jennifer intentionally attracted attention/shouted for help.

The way I see it is this:

Jennifer is kidnapped after her first day back from holiday - who knows her movements?

Jennifers car is found very close to her home.

Jennifers car has about the right amount of fuel in it(in other words it hasnt been driven far unless refuelled, unlikely more exposure for perp)

The poi walks back to Jennifers complex according to the bloodhound.

Jennifer had previously expressed concern about the workers at her complex, she felt uncomfortable.

Now if this isnt somebody local then I will eat my hat.

Of course I cannot be 100% certain on anything Im not arrogant but I just dont buy that some transient wandered into mosaic saw a pretty blonde and abducted her.

Good job UK

Especially the bloodhound. think about it.

Why didn't the bloodhound lead the officer to one of the apartments at HOTG?

Isn't that the most likely event?

I definitely agree this is somebody local, from Florida, spent a great deal of time around that complex.

We all say, why didn't JK do this or that? Well, we don't know.

How do we know she was conscious. How do we know the perp. didnt' tell her his accomplice had her family, or Rob, and would hurt them if she didn't comply?

Most people think they can talk their way out of most situations, especially if they know the person, or recognize them. One would think JK's radar would spot trouble from a transient a mile away. A worker, security guard, not so much.

Who's to say the perp. didn't handcuff JK to the car door, or just tell her he needed a ride home, and he would let her go. OR that he needed cash from her atm card. I can think of quite a few scenario's in which a rational person would not fight back.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Curves:

Thank you for your support. Appreciate you following our quest.

AS for JK:

I don't believe anything was missing from her condo. Because of this, and a few other reasons, her purse missing, shower wet, etc. LE believes she was abducted "at or near her car".

I agree with you theories, but, I wonder about picking the locks on her car. Would something like that be noticed by LE when inspecting JK's car? Plus, with most cars having alarms, it would point to someone who had expertise in disenabling alarms, which, I for one, wouldn't have a clue. Wouldn't something like that point toward a career criminal, versus a worker?

Regardless, the majority of us are in the same boat. We just have different theories as to how the perp. got a jump on JK.

I've suggested that some perp. will use the "my car won't start" trick, and ask for a ride to the front gate. OR anything that lowers the inhibition of someone who may be scared of your presence.

I don't know about you, but, I am not 100% convinced that JK wasn't abducted in her condo, in the morning, just after her shower. Just an educated guess, but, it would explain a lot.

thanks for the good posts and adding ideas to this forum. Many like to attack on this forum, but, very few add their own ideas.

left