FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #3

[leftcoast]

great discussion ...

I read your posts about the dog/s and I wanted to throw some thoughts into your discussion.
Like you, I am not expert on K9 training but I do have some observations
about recent cases in FL that I would like to share.

In the case of Jessica Lunsford, dogs did not find her. She was taken across the street, buried next to the trailer.
She wasn't discovered for three weeks and that was only after Couey told them where to find her.

In the Trenton Duckett case, dogs did not find him. He is still missing.

Coralrose Fuller, 2 hours away from the Duckett case, K9 dogs did not find her either.
A neighbor found her body near her house while walking his dog. The neighbor found her, not the dog.

In Jennifer's case, I have little confidence in any tracking by the dog/s.

IMO, I would dismiss any reports about the K9 in this case unless someone can show me the validity of the tracking.

thanks again ~

Drumstick:

First of all, as you mentioned, neither of us is an expert in dogs.

It is not a perfect science, just a tool. Not every dog handler, every dog, or every police officer is perfect.

If you don't believe in dogs, just ask some "drug smuggler, who has been caught at an airport, or border crossing, on their ability to sniff out a certain odor.

If you think about it logically, dogs should and probably are not effective in areas where the person the dog is tracking lives. Why? Because one would think there would be numerous scents.

In the Trenton case, if his relatives or whomever, put that kid in a car and drove an hour away, a dog would not find him.

You have a better argument with the Jessica Lunsford case, but, then again, she was found close to home, where one would expect numerous scents of her to be found. Not to mention she was buried how many feet deep. Don't forget, it is more difficult to smell something buried 3 feet deep, than on the surface of the earth. It could also be dog error, handler error, or simply the dogs are not effective in finding buried people. If she was on the surface, I would agree with you 100%.

Also, why didnt' the police officer who searched that area by foot notice the disturbed earth where the little girl was buried? I think human error can be attributed to this case as well. LE is taught to look for disturbed earth when searching for missing people.

Again, I"m no expert. But, from what I have gathered, dogs are very useful in finding drugs, and finding scents of people. I just think that they are best in finding the trail of someone who is foreign to an area (somewhere the person does not reside, work, etc.).

Do I believe that the POI parked JK's car, walked past the past at HOTG, and went back to Mosaic? Yes, I think it is very possible. It is certain, NO. I don't trust anything 100%, and that includes myself. But, it is part of this picture.

Also, I have seen cases, numerous cases, on television, etc, where a criminal will leave a car after a chase, and the police dog will sniff the seat, and take a path right to the perp. Think about it, if this technology was useless, why would the police dept. use it in every county of this country? It is just that it has limitations, just like everything else. These dogs are tested all the time, and it is a proven tool.

Don't you find it kind of odd that of all the places in the world for that dog to track, he just happened to track the pOI back to Mosaic? What are the odds, one in a thousand, at best?

regardless of the dog argument, why in the world is this case unsolved? LE has a picture of the guy who parked the car, and a time, why can't they solve this case? And better yet, why not start over, call in everyone close to this investigation, (I can think of twenty of so people,) and give them all lie detector tests.

left

 

[leftcoast]

Hi Drumstick

You have asked us for all of our opinions.

How about yours? You have been following this since the beginning, what is your theory? And what would you do if you were the detective assigned to this case.?

Do you think that LE made errors in this case, and if so, what would you do differently, if assigned to this case from day one?

thanks in advance

left

 

[Bobbisangel]

Don't forget about the dog that followed Laci's scent all the way to the Bay and to the loading dock. That dog was right on. She really was in the Bay.

 

[UK Sleuth]

Hope you all had a pleasant weekend.

Some very interesting points above.

As I understand it the scent was tracked from HOTG back to mosaic by the dog.

This is too coincidental to me to be incorrect as left says what are the chances of the hound coincidentally going to Mosaic?

With little to go on I would use this as a base for the investigation.

Based on this scenario the poi has walked past HOTG back to the scene of the abduction.

To me this begs the question, Why?

Why return to the scene of the abduction?

It would have been possible/probable that people be it family, friends or LE would be at the complex looking for Jennifer, therefore as a perp you would increase your chance of being caught.

Returning to the scene of the crime as they say.

I have two possible answers to this(please add any others!):

1) JK was still in one of the condo's either the perps or an empty one(which would explain the vanishing without a trace a little better)

2) The poi was working at mosaic and had to go back to avoid suspicion if they werent there(JK was elsewhere)

Assuming LE have conducted the investigation thoroughly you would think that anyone linked to Mosaic on that day would have been questioned.

Residents, workers, sub contractors, everyone and anyone should have been questioned.

Working on the theory that they have then you would think that LE would have come across the poi by now.

Whilst the poi pic is awful the person sort of stands out I think you would recognise them or at least say they are similar.

Based on this I'm more and more starting to think LE may have bungled certain elements of the investigation.

Again im basing this on another theory but without putting scenarios together in your head this wont get cracked.

'Just the facts maam' will not crack this case I dont think.

LE, PI or whoever need to put a theory together and then attempt to debunk it, when you cant you may be close to what actually happened.

 

[docwho3]

One thing I noticed is there was not a mess on his clothing when the POI went past the camera. Regardless of color sensitivity of the camera a large stain would have resulted in a color mismatch between stain and clothing and that would most likely have been visible.

To me this says someone had time and a place to change clothing or else the person did not do anything to get more than a tiny amount of blood on himself.

Just going by memory from months ago when I last looked at the pics of the POI that were released to the public: That clothing looked entirely too clean and unrumpled to have been through very much wear and tear in the past few hours and that makes me wonder.

 

[Myserty64]

There are many points there to consider UK, good work!

Perhaps the POI went back to get his vehicle although it was a risky move because by the time he got back to Mosaic Jennifer had been missing for over 4 hours. Mind you he had to take the risk to get to his mode of transport.

Note that the POI went over or through a side fence and not through the main entrance. It also seems he might have gone through some woods but I'm not sure on that.

Also the POI had nearly two days start on the police so by the time the questioning started he was long gone.

JMHO.

 

[Myserty64]

If the POI walked from Huntington to Mosaic he must have had Jennifer's car keys with him.
Where did he dump them?
He may have still had them when he drove off from Mosaic.

If he was leaving Mosaic in some kind of commercial van I doubt anyone would have taken much notice.
They would however have taken notice of anyone arriving on foot and that's why he avoided the main entrance.

Where is the POI today?

 

[docwho3]

I also remember someone mentioned what the police have possibly been holding back.

. . . On top of the pool house behind me, there were security cameras... and they were rolling.

Sgt. Ring: We had actually captured a time when the car was dropped off at a particular apartment complex.​

Dropped off by someone other than Jennifer Kesse. Police haven’t said who—nor released that particular footage . . .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756094/

The article goes on to say that they have released the images of the POI walking but that is different footage altogether. It sounds as if L.E. has at least something they are holding back. . . . . . .or did they ever release that footage of the car being dropped off?

 

[Myserty64]

Thanks for the link docwho3. BTW I thought your observation about the POI's clothing was a poignant one.

A key to why this case remains unsolved might be in this statement by the lead detective:

Sgt. Ring: Orlando is a very transient—community in some areas and there’s—people come through. They’re here one day, they’re gone the next.

The POI has gone alright and most likely back to where ever he came from.

 

[Myserty64]

Footage of the car being parked has never been released.

I'm beginning to wonder if more than one person got out of the car at Huntington. The police have said there could have been more than one person involved in the abduction.

 

[UK Sleuth]

So frustrating for anyone to try and get anywhere in this case.

I hope to god LE have a lot more than they are revealing.

With regard to blood on the poi's clothes theres nothing to suggest that there should be any blood for the poi to have to change from their original clothes.

No blood in the car or JKs condo, not anywhere.

The perp could have taken her at gunpoint and restrained her somewhere either by tying her up or with an accomplice.

Jennifer sounds like a smart young girl but I suspect wouldnt struggle with a gun pointed at her.

She would probably freeze as most of us would at gunpoint.

A lot of people seem to think there would have been a struggle in this incident, this is not necessarily the case is it?

We have even compared the size of the poi 5ft 3-5in vs Jennifer 5ft 8in.
(left I know you take issue with this height)

I dont think because your taller than someone makes you want to tackle them if they have a gun!!!!

Im 5ft 8in(were smaller in the UK!) and someone of 5ft 3in pointed a gun at me I'd pretty much do as I was told, certainly initially due to shock.

 

[leftcoast]

Why is it that we always blame dogs for not solving cases, versus their handlers or the police?

Again, dogs can't trace a scent once someone gets into an automobile.

I don't hear anyone blaming the police in the Wade Steffey case for not checking the utilities room at this dorm. That was great police and search work.

For the record, police dogs did trace a scent to the lake in Wisconsin or Minn, where the two little boys were found recently, supposedly they fell through the lake.

UK is right. Who says there was any sign of blood that would have gotten on the poi. No blood in Jk's condo or car. Plus, if the POI lives at Mosaic, if necessary, he could have easily changed and showered and held JK at his condo, then went to find a place to dump the car.

Yes, it does appear that LE is holding back evidence. At what point will they share the evidence of the car being parked? Come on, the bluff didn't work, release the video and hope it generates new information and new leads.

Maybe someone knows the POI, but won't sacrifice his name because they think he is only a witness. Release information of him parking JK's car, and maybe a tipster will change his/her mind when they figure out the POI is the perp., as most of us do. Plus, if the POI did park the car, a second look at him might help explain a few things.

I agree with UK, this case is most likely unsolved due to LE passing on investigating somone who is guilty, or an incorrect assumption, or just plain tunnel vision

left

 

[leftcoast]

HI UK, Glad you had a decent weekend.

What I don't understand in this case is how LE can eliminate people as suspects when they don't know when, how, where, etc Jk was abducted.

Just because somebody has a solid alibi for the time when the car is dropped, how do we know they didn't commit a crime, and have an accomplice dump the car.?

IF someone worked at Mosaic, the perp. could have dumped that car and been back to work within the lunch hour.

I just don't see how you can eliminate anyone in this case.

I still think there is a good chance that JK was abducted in her apartment, given all of the sets of keys out there, and the fact there are zero witnesses.

That quote from SGt Ring scares me. I hope LE isn't getting tunnel vision and only focusing on transients in this case. IF the POI is a transient, he is the best dressed, best driver, and smartest transient I've run across.


left.

 

[docwho3]

. . .With regard to blood on the poi's clothes theres nothing to suggest that there should be any blood for the poi to have to change from their original clothes. . .

True but I was not saying there was anything to suggest that there should possibly be blood other than a missing victim. What I was doing was noting that there was no visible blood on the clothes. I was looking at various possibilities. If foul play took place and if it had involved murder as well as kidnapping then one possible way of murdering could involve a knife and lots of blood. Since I see no evidence of blood then the list of possibilities changes a slight bit for me.

I can't prove the first "if", that fould play actually occured at all and that our victim is not actually a runaway but in looking at possibilities I can move beyond that point and go farther along the list of possibilities.

If foul play did happen was it more than a kidnapping or has she been kept alive somewhere?

One possibility is that either our victim was not killed or at least not at the time the pics were taken . . . . .or it (the clean clothing on the POI) could mean the victim was not killed by any means that would cause lots of blood to spill on the clothing of the perp. . . .or the perp. might have had a helper that did the bloody part of the work if bloody work was done . . . . .or it could mean the perp had changed clothes which could also indicate the opportunity and time and resources to do so.

Beyond the lack of large blood stains I note what seems to be an unrumpled look to the clothing and that too indicates to me a slightly more narrow list of possibilities.

At the moment the list of possibilities is not narrowed down anywhere near enough but I try to keep the various possibilities in mind for future reference when and/if more info should surface.

There are more possibilites that I have not yet mentioned but I explained it this way in an effort to show what I was thinking about in that post I made.

 

[drumstick]

Hi Drumstick

You have asked us for all of our opinions.

How about yours? You have been following this since the beginning, what is your theory? And what would you do if you were the detective assigned to this case.?

Do you think that LE made errors in this case, and if so, what would you do differently, if assigned to this case from day one?

thanks in advance

left

Thank you for asking ~

I have been following this case since the news broke over a year ago and yes, I do believe that mistakes were made early on in this investigation and could be one of the reasons "why" public information about this case was shut down.


Jennifer’s case is not like any other missing case.


At this time with what knowledge I have, she fits no known profile that we typically see in missing women cases.


By all accounts Jennifer is loved and cherished by family and friends.


No abusive husband or boyfriend to pin it on, no recent ex, no monetary wealth, no dangerous lifestyle or questionable employment, no history of abusing drugs or alcohol, mental illness, or loner type of behavior.


By all accounts, she worked, loved and stayed close to the people in her life.

So how does a “good girl” doing all the right things, end up missing without a trace?

This case is every parent's nightmare.
How can we help protect our own young adults if we can't find the answers to what happened to Jennifer Kesse?

Some say ask Jennifer. What did she say before she was abducted?


Maybe Jennifer’s answers are in the memories of conversations and comments made to the people closest to her.

I believe Jennifer told her Mom and Dad, her boyfriend, Rob, and probably told her best friend and maybe even coworkers.
What scared her or caused her alarm? Compile a list of Jennifer’s answers.


It is not uncommon for victims to verbally express their premonitions or anxious feelings to others before a crime has taken place, as we are now watching in the Theresa Parker case in Georgia.


From what has been published about Jennifer’s concerns for her safety, she told us that she did not feel safe where she lived.
Who made her feel that way? Start there.

Every person working in and around that complex was questioned by le?


Were their cell phone numbers asked for by le and were the records checked for their whereabouts the day Jennifer went missing?

Everyone has a cell phone, even illegal immigrants.
Who lied?
That is where I would start.
I would want to know every cell phone ping from that area on the morning of January 24, 2006, especially workers identified by Jennifer in past conversations, such as maintenance workers.


Every name, every number, every ping … where were they from 11:00PM on January 23 and all day January 24, 2006?
Who didn’t show up for work on the 24th or 25th?
Give them all LDT's and find out who won't take one and "why".


IMO ~

 

[leftcoast]

Thanks Drumstick: You have been there since day one, and I know you won't let the city of Orlando forget about JK, and for that, thanks.

I agree with what you said.

Think about this logically.

JK has no problems that we know about from age 18 until Jan. 24, 2006.

She moves into her condo around thanksgiving 2005.

JK then mentions she is afraid of some of the workers. Somebody must have given her the creeps.

JK goes missing from her complex, WITHIN two months of living there.

I agree with you. What has changed in her life? Her residence.

Hence, I would start with people at the complex. Some of whom I'm sure had access to the key to her apartment, knew her routine, etc.

I still think that the manager of the complex, sales staff, and the head maintenance person have to be the clue to solving this case.

Plus, every complex has the nosey neighbor who is watching everyone to pass the day. Where are these people in this case?


left

Another thing that concerns me is related to the woman who lived in Ohio and complained about the man in the MOsaic gym. I know that guy was identified and cleared. But, are some of the units at MOsaic rented out to tourists, as if, they are hotels? or are some corporate apartments? If so, the list of potential suspects has grown substantially.

 

[Kelly]

Again, dogs can't trace a scent once someone gets into an automobile.

Hello,

Just to let you know, this statement is not true. A well trained dog and handler can track someone who left in a car. Scent from the person goes into the air filtration system (or the window) and out the tailpipe. In older cars, (post 1980 something or so) this was not possible because of the catalytic converter type systems on the older cars.

http://stason.org/TULARC/recreation/dogs/working-faq/004-Tracking-and-Trailing.html

 

[leftcoast]

Here we go with more discussion about the dogs

Ya know, this dog discussion has been going on since last summer

In one camp, people who think dogs are useless for tracking

In the other, people who say dogs can track, even through a car that is moving. According to the web author, the track can be followed through an open window or vents. What if the windows and vents are closed, then what? What if the person is wrapped in a tarp or blanket in order to hide from authorities? Who is this author? He states he is a healer, investor, traveler, etc.? How did he become a dog expert? What is the range that a dog can track? How long would it take for a dog to track 100 miles of freeway? etc. Are there any documented cases to back this up, or is it theoretical, ie, best case scenario? I can't imagine how dead skin cells could make their way onto the highway if the person was wrapped in a tarp, but, I may be wrong. If you have any documented cases, please give us a link. thanks.

As it pertains to this case, I believe that the dogs did track the person who parked JK's car back to Mosaic. In this case, the person was walking, and less than a mile from the point A to B.

I've witnessed cases where trained cadaver dogs have gone right by a corpse. So, like I said earlier, dogs are just a tool, some are very good, some handlers are good, while other dogs and their handlers are prone to errors.

Let's get back to finding JK

left

 

[Myserty64]

The keys to Jennifer's condo.

Don't forget that Jennifer's brother and his friends (they stayed at her condo while she was away) had keys to her condo.
Well at least her brother had a key.
Who else visited the condo that weekend?
Was there a party, small or otherwise, held in the condo?
Did anyone have an opportunity to have a 'spare' key cut?
These guys had to sleep somewhere so did anyone sleep in Jennifer's bedroom? Who looked at personal stuff like photographs?

I hope anyone who was at that condo that weekend has been thoroughly questioned.
After all, Jennifer was abducted within one night of being back home.

Often, in these types of cases the perpetrator appears to have an alibi.

 

[leftcoast]

Good points Mystery,

You are correct about the alibi's. Most criminals are smart enough to have an alibi ready, just in case, after commiting a crime.

You do wonder if JK being out of town and the brother and his friends staying at her place are simply coincidences, or part of this puzzle.

Why did Logan and his friends want to stay at her place? There must have been a reason, ie, nightclubs, going out to see sites, etc. In their early 20's, I doubt they drove all the way to Orlando to sit in an apartment all weekend.

Did they invite guests over to the apartment? Any fights or parties? Any disputes with neighbors, due to noise, etc.?

Copying a key can be done very easily.

OR did the guests at JK's incense a stalker who may have thought one of the guests was JK's boyfriend?

left