FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[Cryptic]

Well here it is from the Daytona Beach paper dated January 5, 2022:

It started out as a common traffic conflict between commuters. A motorcyclist traveling at a “high rate of speed” was passing a car last November when the car moved into the biker’s lane causing him to swerve, according to a report.

The motorcyclist, Andrew Derr, then “became aggressive,” yelling and waving as he continued to ride next to the car driven by Sara-Nicole Morales, according to the report.

Based on this, I would charge Derr with Negligent Homicide or Manslaughter type charges.

I posted links to two cases where the defendants conduct prior to the self defense shooting or self defense fatal punch served as ground for criminal charges.

One man had participated in a mutually escalating "Don't look at my girl- Oh yeah, spilled your beer" confrontation. The other had stated a predisposition to seek out confrontations with dim wits.

In both cases, charges took time. I in this case, I hope the police are slowly putting enough evidence together to negate Derr's spin.

There was an recent article that I can't find now, where one of the pursuing witnesses stated that D kicked SM's car after the initial cutoff, but before her car made contact with his bike. Does anyone else remember that?

I do not.

But.... if the police can substantiate that, I think Derr is going to be charged.

My guess is that the more Derr participated in a mutually escalating confrontation, the more likely the charges might grow from manslaughter to murder.

The case above of a mutual fight that turned deadly, the depth of the survivor's participation in the "one upping" that occurred prior to the showdown was a key factor. So was his past behavior of confrontations.

 

[Razz]

Based on this, I would charge Derr with Negligent Homicide or Manslaughter type charges.

I posted links to two cases where the defendants conduct prior to the self defense shooting or self defense fatal punch served as ground for criminal charges.

One man had participated in a mutually escalating "Don't look at my girl- Oh yeah, spilled your beer" confrontation. The other had stated a predisposition to seek out confrontations with dim wits.

In both cases, charges took time. I in this case, I hope the police are slowly putting enough evidence together to negate Derr's spin.

I do not.

But.... if the police can substantiate that, I think Derr is going to be charged.

My guess is that the more Derr participated in a mutually escalating confrontation, the more likely the charges might grow from manslaughter to murder.

The case above of a mutual fight that turned deadly, the depth of the survivor's participation in the "one upping" that occurred prior to the showdown was a key factor. So was his past behavior of confrontations.

Well, hallelujah!

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

There was an recent article that I can't find now, where one of the pursuing witnesses stated that D kicked SM's car after the initial cutoff, but before her car made contact with his bike. Does anyone else remember that?

Here it is:

Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

"Drew told police that after Derr’s motorcycle was hit, Derr kicked the driver’s side of Morales’ car, according to a report."

I also want to point out how insanely disrespectful Derr is. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I just killed another human being - even in self defense - I would be out of my mind. His response, right down to describing her as "yap(ping)" at him is the equivalent of a toddler caught by mom who puts his hands up right away and proclaims "I didn't do it!" I know we shouldn't judge how people deal with the aftermath of situations like these as looks can be deceiving, but this guy just sounds like someone who was angry and impulsive and couldn't have cared less that he just took a life, except in how it would affect him legally.

 

[happyday]

Here it is:

Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

"Drew told police that after Derr’s motorcycle was hit, Derr kicked the driver’s side of Morales’ car, according to a report."

I also want to point out how insanely disrespectful Derr is. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I just killed another human being - even in self defense - I would be out of my mind. His response, right down to describing her as "yap(ping)" at him is the equivalent of a toddler caught by mom who puts his hands up right away and proclaims "I didn't do it!" I know we shouldn't judge how people deal with the aftermath of situations like these as looks can be deceiving, but this guy just sounds like someone who was angry and impulsive and couldn't have cared less that he just took a life, except in how it would affect him legally.

I came into this case late, but after reading through everything and putting it all together, it sure seems to me like he started the whole confrontation by recklessly speeding on his motorcycle and becoming angry and harassing after getting cut off. It sounds like he was spoiling for a fight, and perhaps did get a rise out of the pregnant driver, but we will never really know what her intentions were since she’s dead. No one was hurt though, and she leaves the situation. He and two other guys on the road couldn’t leave it alone and follow her all the way home where she’s scared (I would be) and comes out on her porch waving her gun around, and he shoots her FIVE times! I don’t believe for one second he was defending himself—he was MAD, and he wasn’t going to let her get away with cutting him off. He chased HER home and shot her five times at her own house.

It would of course be in his best interest to make her out to be aggressive and intentionally trying to run him over since he killed her, but it doesn’t read that way to me. He looks like a hothead bad motorcycle driver who became enraged and followed a woman who had the bad luck to cross paths with him home and shot her 5 times. That’s what it looks like to me.

 

[griss]

Here it is:

Biker says library worker pointed gun before she was fatally shot

"Drew told police that after Derr’s motorcycle was hit, Derr kicked the driver’s side of Morales’ car, according to a report."

I also want to point out how insanely disrespectful Derr is. I don't know about the rest of you, but if I just killed another human being - even in self defense - I would be out of my mind. His response, right down to describing her as "yap(ping)" at him is the equivalent of a toddler caught by mom who puts his hands up right away and proclaims "I didn't do it!" I know we shouldn't judge how people deal with the aftermath of situations like these as looks can be deceiving, but this guy just sounds like someone who was angry and impulsive and couldn't have cared less that he just took a life, except in how it would affect him legally.

Thank you. So, I misremembered, he kicked her car after she made contact with his bike.

 

[Cryptic]

Thank you. So, I misremembered, he kicked her car after she made contact with his bike.

Contact that evidently did not damage the bike- but might have damaged a saddle bag.

Hoping for criminal charges as the totality (D yelling, riding along side her, and at one point- kicking the car) shows "D" was participating in a mutual game of "one upping".

That would seem to detract from- but not totally negate his later self defense claims.

 

[JayLee#99]

I see no reason this guy wouldn’t be charged. When will people learn that you can’t be the aggressor and the victim at the same time?!

 

[SuziQ]

Contact that evidently did not damage the bike- but might have damaged a saddle bag.

Hoping for criminal charges as the totality (D yelling, riding along side her, and at one point- kicking the car) shows "D" was participating in a mutual game of "one upping".

That would seem to detract from- but not totally negate his later self defense claims.

It doesn't take much to take a bike down. So I don't think minor damage to saddle bags should be dismissed. Derr is lucky he didn't go down. This type of stuff really pisses bikers off because a lot of them end up dead from getting hit. While my husband has never chased after anyone, he has been hit three times. Went down once and rear ended twice. I have been on the back and have witnessed drivers act aggressively. It is a serious problem. Moo.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

It doesn't take much to take a bike down. So I don't think minor damage to saddle bags should be dismissed. Derr is lucky he didn't go down. This type of stuff really pisses bikers off because a lot of them end up dead from getting hit. While my husband has never chased after anyone, he has been hit three times. Went down once and rear ended twice. I have been on the back and have witnessed drivers act aggressively. It is a serious problem. Moo.

I don't think anyone is dismissing it. If Sara were alive, I'm sure many of us would say they should both be charged. But the fact remains that he killed her because he chased after her in a huff and neither were thinking rationally. He doesn't now get to claim victim status as if he wasn't just as responsible for the escalation and subsequent death.

 

[Cryptic]

It doesn't take much to take a bike down. So I don't think minor damage to saddle bags should be dismissed. Derr is lucky he didn't go down.

While my husband has never chased after anyone, he has been hit three times. Went down once and rear ended twice. I have been on the back and have witnessed drivers act aggressively. It is a serious problem. Moo.

Very good point- and one that is not readily apparent to non motorcycle riders such as myself. As you stated, what constitutes a bump to somebody in a car can spill a rider.

Evidently, the Florida State Attorney's office is looking at the case. My guess is that few people there ride motorcycles. They need to be aware of the difference and take it into consideration.

 

[Razz]

Other comments by SM's mother cut and pasted from the above article:

Flaherty questioned why Derr and the other two men continued after her daughter.

"How bad was this accident that they needed to chase her down like they did," Flaherty said. "Obviously not that bad. They had already given her license plate to 911, yet continued to chase her.

 

[Laughing]

It doesn't take much to take a bike down. So I don't think minor damage to saddle bags should be dismissed. Derr is lucky he didn't go down. This type of stuff really pisses bikers off because a lot of them end up dead from getting hit. While my husband has never chased after anyone, he has been hit three times. Went down once and rear ended twice. I have been on the back and have witnessed drivers act aggressively. It is a serious problem. Moo.

bbm

4 motorcycles in the Laughing garage, 300 cc to 1200cc. (I generally ride the 300, occasionally the 900.)

It doesn't take much to ride the speed limit in traffic.

Find an empty stretch of road if you want to roll that throttle back & see what she'll do.

Motorcycles are vehicles and subject to all motor vehicle laws.

No matter what Mr. Derr believes.

Riders like this give the rest of us a bad name.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[GatorFL]

I grew up in the Daytona area. I learned how to drive there. In that general area, you learn how to be cognizant of the bikers because they are everywhere and a car is a lethal weapon to someone on a bike. You also learn how to deal with aggressive people because it happens. There are most certainly attorneys in the area who are bikers; I would guess some people in the State Attorney's office are either bikers or familiar enough with the dangers posed by and to bikers to be able to make a competent decision on how to move forward.

I saw one bad accident, a car turned left in front of a biker. Totally the fault of the car. His bike hit the car and he was ejected from the bike and landed on the pavement. He was pretty skinned up from head to toe and he left in an ambulance. The bike was totaled and honestly the car was pretty messed up too. I was a witness, the cops called the next day and told me the biker would live but would be in bad shape for awhile.

Bottom line, pay attention when you're on the road! I think the authorities will get this right in terms of charging the biker for an offense, or not charging him, based upon the evidence.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I grew up in the Daytona area. I learned how to drive there. In that general area, you learn how to be cognizant of the bikers because they are everywhere and a car is a lethal weapon to someone on a bike. You also learn how to deal with aggressive people because it happens. There are most certainly attorneys in the area who are bikers; I would guess some people in the State Attorney's office are either bikers or familiar enough with the dangers posed by and to bikers to be able to make a competent decision on how to move forward.

I saw one bad accident, a car turned left in front of a biker. Totally the fault of the car. His bike hit the car and he was ejected from the bike and landed on the pavement. He was pretty skinned up from head to toe and he left in an ambulance. The bike was totaled and honestly the car was pretty messed up too. I was a witness, the cops called the next day and told me the biker would live but would be in bad shape for awhile.

Bottom line, pay attention when you're on the road! I think the authorities will get this right in terms of charging the biker for an offense, or not charging him, based upon the evidence.

It's been posted several times how vulnerable people on motorcycles are because it's so easy to get hurt or killed by a car. I get it. But by the same token, if it's that easy to get hurt or killed by a car and Morales's actions not only didn't hurt or kill Derr, but they didn't even cause him to fall off his motorcycle (thank goodness) and the damage couldn't even be seen, then how can we keep repeating the line that she tried to kill him?

If motorcycles are that vulnerable to a spill, then the fact that that isn't what happened here actually makes me think as another poster suggested, maybe Morales was just trying to leave (he was harassing her after all) and her swerve accidentally made contact with him. If she had been actually trying to harm him, as people have speculated, the damage likely would have been worse. We'll never know since she isn't here to tell us her side, but all this talk of motorcycles strengthens her case imo, not his.

 

[GatorFL]

It's been posted several times how vulnerable people on motorcycles are because it's so easy to get hurt or killed by a car. I get it. But by the same token, if it's that easy to get hurt or killed by a car and Morales's actions not only didn't hurt or kill Derr, but they didn't even cause him to fall off his motorcycle (thank goodness) and the damage couldn't even be seen, then how can we keep repeating the line that she tried to kill him?

If motorcycles are that vulnerable to a spill, then the fact that that isn't what happened here actually makes me think as another poster suggested, maybe Morales was just trying to leave (he was harassing her after all) and her swerve accidentally made contact with him. If she had been actually trying to harm him, as people have speculated, the damage likely would have been worse. We'll never know since she isn't here to tell us her side, but all this talk of motorcycles strengthens her case imo, not his.

<modsnip> Accidents happen and Florida law is clear that all involved parties must pull over. Fleeing the scene of an accident is a crime. That did not happen, for whatever reason she chose to go to her home.

 

[happyday]

<modsnip>
I would flee too if the person I had the accident with (although this wasn’t really an accident IMO—just a road rage incident) was screaming at me and kicking my car.

 

[GatorFL]

I would flee too if the person I had the accident with (although this wasn’t really an accident IMO—just a road rage incident) was screaming at me and kicking my car.

A vehicle coming into contact with another is an accident. Both parties should pull over and see what the damage is.

I think it escalated when she did not pull over to possibly road rage, but the witnesses seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[Cryptic]

Accidents happen and Florida law is clear that all involved parties must pull over.

Objectively, this is very true and ends in a strong, mandatory period.

Subjectively, however, I dont know how many pregnant women are ever prosecuted for leaving the scene of a very minor accident after a male continued along side her, then started yelling at her.

Then factor in that Derr evidently kicked her car- which remains a fact even if Derr's spin as to why he kicked it is accepted.

In short, my guess is that if Derr is banking on the objective reading of the Florida law justifying following / chasing Morales, he could sink.

 

[GatorFL]

Objectively, this is very true and ends in a strong, mandatory period.

Subjectively, however, I dont know how many pregnant women are ever prosecuted for leaving the scene of a very minor accident after a male continued along side her, then started yelling at her.

Then factor in that Derr evidently kicked her car- which remains a fact even if Derr's spin as to why he kicked it is accepted.

In short, my guess is that if Derr is banking on the objective reading of the Florida law justifying following / chasing Morales, he could sink.

I think the law has the separate the incidents. Here is what I come up with as I understand it.

1. The initial accident and her driving off.
2. He escalating that with the yelling and kicking.
3. Her attempt at crashing into him.
4. Her arriving at home, running in, getting a gun and coming out armed with her mother also armed.
5. Her pointing a weapon at him and he shooting her.

Both of them, if they were alive, would be in trouble I think because this was a series of events that spiraled out of control with shared culpability. With her dead, after pointing a gun at him, I don't know if that changes the calculus at all.

It will be interesting to watch for sure.

IANAL

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I think the law has the separate the incidents. Here is what I come up with as I understand it.

1. The initial accident and her driving off.
2. He escalating that with the yelling and kicking.
3. Her attempt at crashing into him.
4. Her arriving at home, running in, getting a gun and coming out armed with her mother also armed.
5. Her pointing a weapon at him and he shooting her.

Both of them, if they were alive, would be in trouble I think because this was a series of events that spiraled out of control with shared culpability. With her dead, after pointing a gun at him, I don't know if that changes the calculus at all.

It will be interesting to watch for sure.

IANAL

1. There was no initial accident. He was speeding and she changed lanes. They did not make contact. He then started harassing her. HE was the aggressor, not her. If he hadn't been speeding, maybe he wouldn't have felt she cut him off.
2. Yes he escalated even before he was ever struck.
3. She swerved and left. We have no idea if she swerved to get away from him or if this was an intentional act to harm him, though I find the latter hard to believe given how little damage was done. But again she isn't here to defend herself so we don't know.
4. You left out the step where THREE men chased her home. I sure as hell wouldn't pull over when three men are chasing me. I'd call the cops while driving away and explain why I'm not stopping which is what she did. For all she knew, they were armed (and one was) and ready to fight her for the incident. Derr certainly wasn't acting rationally.
5. She waved the weapon per witnesses and even if he felt endangered, shooting someone 5 times is overkill to the extreme. There was no reason to do that. None.