For a relative newbie to this case

  • #21
Many moons ago, this case became the domain of diehard cauldron stirrers, who believe that one more of the Ramseys was responsible for Jon Benet's death. Patsy's passing on, sparked old, specious arguments, which are the lifebood of the diehards but go nowhere.


Yep.
It certainly has brought people out of the woodwork, I'd say you included Wudge, prior to this I haven't seen your name on this board much, if at all in the last 18 months.

Why do you feel the need to come and defend Patsy again all of a sudden :confused:
 
  • #22
narlacat said:
Many moons ago, this case became the domain of diehard cauldron stirrers, who believe that one more of the Ramseys was responsible for Jon Benet's death. Patsy's passing on, sparked old, specious arguments, which are the lifebood of the diehards but go nowhere.


SNIP

Why do you feel the need to come and defend Patsy again all of a sudden :confused:


Because decency matters.

Upon her passing on, I came to make a post in respect to Patsy. I was surprised to find many highly venemous posts within the forum. It bothered me that classless people also came to spit, figuratively, on her casket.

Those posts brought forth from my memory bank a famous incident in Senator Joe MaCarthy's anti-communist campaign.

McCarthy had taken on the Army. In turn, the Army hired a private attorney, Joe Welch, to make its case in front of McCarthy's committee (his forum). A forum that he and his heinous attorney sidekick, Roy Cohn, used to destroy lives.

Shortly after the Army's hearing commenced, McCarthy went after a young attorney on Welch's staff by claiming that he had ties to a Communist organization. Welch's response ultimately ended McCarthy's career; Welch said: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness." Not detered, McCarthy pressed his attack, but Welch angrily interrupted and told McCarthy: "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"

Those last six words caused McCarthy's world to totally unravel. Three years later, at the age of 48, he died a broken man.

Decency matters.
 
  • #23
And how does that story relate to discussing the facts surrounding the murder of JonBenet Ramsey and the fact that her parents are prime suspects in her murder?

Who figurately spit on Patsy's casket? Do you mean the people like myself who continued to discuss the evidence in this case and how Patsy figures into it? I doubt those people mean to disrespect the dead...I believe they mean nothing but the highest respect for JonBenet.

I'm sorry Patsy died of cancer so young, but her death does not leave her untouchable in a discussion about her daughter's death and the fact that evidence points to her involvement. That would make her death more important than her daughter's murder, and I'm sorry, but the murder of a 6 year old girl trumps the death of a 49 year old cancer victim every time.

I saw two very vicious posts regarding Steve Thomas in the thread about his new baby. Hmmm, RDIs abstained from posting mean things in the memorial thread for Patsy, but nonRDIs weren't able to do the same in a thread about Thomas's new baby. Talk about lack of decency...
 
  • #24
capps said:
hbgchick,

It sounds like your asking for a "smoking gun" in this case .... there isn't one. No one knows with 100% certainty who killed JonBenet Ramsey. And that my friends,is why there has not been an arrest.
Yup. And that's what I still believe.
 
  • #25
narlacat said:
Someone did try to offer you more than conjecture and it seems you are not interested.

I look at the R's behaviour post JBR's death.
I know that doesn't stand up in a court of law but this case is never going to get there and I need resolution in my mind.

The R's tried to leave town within an hour of their daughter's body being found.
They didn't plan on taking her with them either.

PR walked out of that house that day and didn't look back.
I've heard all about how she acted when her daughter's body was found, wailing screaming, praying
Yet she walked out of that house that day, leaving her precious daughter all by herself in the 'hell hole', no screaming, no wailing, no having to be dragged away....just walked out.
Just like that.

and THAT is called distancing, the pair of them just couldn't wait to get out of there.
Then it took them 4 months to agree to be interviewed!
Quite right. They tried. They did not succeed.
 
  • #26
Thanks SuperDave. You had me going there on just one point, the fact that there were fibers of Patsy's sweater tied INTO the garrote, were found IN the paint tray, IN the duct tape, etc. etc. etc. Till I read it again and saw that key phrase..."we believe". Not "this happened", but "we believe this happened". From the DA. Sometimes one little word..."try"..."believe"...means a lot.

Every other point COULD be evidence of Patsy's guilt, and COULD be evidence of a distraught mother whose daughter has been murdered and she's getting blamed for it.

I just don't see how anybody can be so sure either way.

SuperDave said:
Your wish is my command, Hbgchick! First, though:

"Judge Carnes supported the intruder storyline that was championed by retired homicide detective, Lou Smit. She evaluated the relevant evidence that was presented by both attorneys and said there was "abundant evidence" to support such a liklihood."

What many people forget, unless they are reminded, is that the judge was not ruling on the entire case, only the evidence that was presented before her. Hoffman, Wolf's atty., challenged almost none of the "evidence" the Ramseys presented, even though much of it was disputable. And when he put forth his witnesses, he did so in a way that guaranteed their failure. The judge said that his witnesses had made no attempt to demonstrate how they made their conclusions. True, BUT, Hoffman never asked them! One of them, a Mr. Epstein, said that in 30 years, this was the first time he had not been allowed to testify as to his methodology.

"She also chided/harpooned the Boulder police department for their case management and approach to the case and for using the media to villify the Ramseys."

Yes, she did, but it wasn't her call to make.

"Boulder's D.A., supported Judge Carnes report."

A decision the man who led the Grand Jury was highly critical of.

"It deserves mention that Judge Carnes was particularly dismissive of any thought that Patsy murdered Jon Benet."

Leaving aside possible bias, said GJ leader said that with the evidence that was presented (failed to present would be more apt) there was no other choice she could have made.

Now for the nitty gritty. And please, don't kill the messenger. Remember: you did ask!

Okay, no more stalling!

First, we have some veeeeerrrryy interesting fiber evidence.

MR. LEVIN: "Based on the state of the art scientific testing, we believe the fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tray, were found tied into the ligature found on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket that she is wrapped in, were found on the duct tape that is found on the mouth, and the question is, can she explain to us how those fibers appeared in those places that are associated with her daughter's death. And I understand you are not going to answer those."

The man speaking is Bruce Levin, a prosecutor working with the DA's office. What he's referring to specifically, and he pursues this elsewhere, is that fibers from Patsy's clothes were found tied into the knots of the cord JonBenet was garroted with. Patsy, at the time, offered no explanation. Indeed, if you've ever seen the tape of that interview, you'll see she almost passes out. Two years later, Patsy explained that the fiber transfer took place when she prayed over JB's body that morning. But that makes no sense. JB had already been covered with a blanket and sweatshirt. The Ramseys said so in their book. Also, the same fibers were in the box where the stick that the cord was wrapped around was taken from, but she claims she never went there wearing that item of clothing.

Also, in one interview, from earlier, Patsy is asked about the heart drawn on JB's hand. She goes on to describe it in detail. The next day, when asked about it again, she claims she knows nothing about it.

In another interview, maybe the same one, the policeman interviewing her tells her that he has evidence JB had been sexually assaulted more than once. He asks her how she feels about it. She says she's shocked, but then proceeds to try and change the subject.

Another problem we have is the note. It contains several phrases and terms known to be frequently used by her and her relatives/friends. Plus, an handwriting expert consulted said he found 51 similarities between her writing and that of the note. Another one said he found no significant variances between them.

And here's a really fun part: less than a year after the killing, a local handwriting expert/lawyer got caught in a sticky wicket. A man he represented made an attempt to purchase a copy of the note. This lawyer, Miller, went along. Even if he had known his guy was going to bribe the note's possesser, there was nothing he could have done to stop him. If he had called the cops, he could have been disbarred for breaching privilege. Miller made his analysis of the note, saying he was sure Patsy had written it. Now, here's where it gets REALLY nasty! The police arrested Miller and his client, he claims, at the behest of Hal Haddon, the Ramsey lawyer. I believe him, because the briber himself spent not jail time, but Miller was targeted with heavy artillery. He decided to go to trial. It took the jury less than three hours to find him not guilty. Miller claimed that he was only prosecuted because he said Patsy wrote the note. His claim was seemingly borne out at the trial. His defense pulled off a real coup at trial when a private investigator working on the Ramseys' behalf admitted that he had been ordered to dig up dirt on Miller because Miller's testimony might be devastating at trial. If the Ramseys knew about this, then they obviously have something to hide. If they didn't, one has to wonder why this was necessary. Either way, it's pretty disgraceful.

And that's just for OPENERS! If you need more, hbgchick, believe me, I've got it!
 
  • #27
Nuisanceposter said:
And how does that story relate to discussing the facts surrounding the murder of JonBenet Ramsey and the fact that her parents are prime suspects in her murder?

Who figurately spit on Patsy's casket? Do you mean the people like myself who continued to discuss the evidence in this case and how Patsy figures into it? I doubt those people mean to disrespect the dead...I believe they mean nothing but the highest respect for JonBenet.

I'm sorry Patsy died of cancer so young, but her death does not leave her untouchable in a discussion about her daughter's death and the fact that evidence points to her involvement. That would make her death more important than her daughter's murder, and I'm sorry, but the murder of a 6 year old girl trumps the death of a 49 year old cancer victim every time.

I saw two very vicious posts regarding Steve Thomas in the thread about his new baby. Hmmm, RDIs abstained from posting mean things in the memorial thread for Patsy, but nonRDIs weren't able to do the same in a thread about Thomas's new baby. Talk about lack of decency...
It "figures in" because the original post also expressed surprise that after all of these years so many people could be so venomous toward Patsy even after her death.
 
  • #28
Dr Henry Lee said flat out, "fibers consistant with does not mean a match. Similar, but not proven to be the same" (paraphrased from memory).

BTW Patsy's sweater was reportedly red, black and grey and there were no grey fibers found that we know about, just red and black ones.
 
  • #29
Hbgchick said:
It "figures in" because the original post also expressed surprise that after all of these years so many people could be so venomous toward Patsy even after her death.
I don't see discussing how Patsy could been the killer as venomous. It's discussion of the mother of the murdered child, who was present in the home the evening JonBenet was killed. No one is disrespecting her in saying that evidence looks like she might have been the killer. That's how the evidence is perceived to many who know of this case. It wasn't disrespect to talk about it last week when Patsy was alive, and it isn't disrespect now.

Seriously - for those of you who think discussion of that kind should suspend since it's indecent etc according to you - what is the length of time you think members of a forum discussing crimes and trials should wait before continuing to discuss the crime and subsequent events?
 
  • #30
Seeker said:
Dr Henry Lee said flat out, "fibers consistant with does not mean a match. Similar, but not proven to be the same" (paraphrased from memory). well then the question is, did she ever paint in a red sweater? I kind of doubt it. wouldn't she be wearing something old, like a smock?

BTW Patsy's sweater was reportedly red, black and grey and there were no grey fibers found that we know about, just red and black ones.
thanks for the clarification-but what about those fibers being wrapped around the ligature??

seeker, i appreciating you clarifying the facts, but don't you think that red and black fibers found in the tray and the fact she was wearing it that night are a little fishy??
 
  • #31
Hbgchick said:
What I guess I'm getting at, is all of the folks who are saying Patsy is "guilty" of murder or covering up a murder are speculating. She is not guilty, at least in the eyes of the law. Unfortunatly neither is OJ, but at least they had enough evidence to put him on trial and everyone knows the prosecution lost that case on it's own.

Based on the question originally asked "...please, someone convince me. Please someone give me some evidence that Patsy and/or John did this.", it looks like there is none. So thanks for the opinions guys.
hbgchick,
i respectfully ask you to give me some evidence that patsy was not involved in the cover up.
thanks,
ellen
 
  • #32
Wudge said:
Because decency matters.

Upon her passing on, I came to make a post in respect to Patsy. I was surprised to find many highly venemous posts within the forum. It bothered me that classless people also came to spit, figuratively, on her casket.

Those posts brought forth from my memory bank a famous incident in Senator Joe MaCarthy's anti-communist campaign.

McCarthy had taken on the Army. In turn, the Army hired a private attorney, Joe Welch, to make its case in front of McCarthy's committee (his forum). A forum that he and his heinous attorney sidekick, Roy Cohn, used to destroy lives.

Shortly after the Army's hearing commenced, McCarthy went after a young attorney on Welch's staff by claiming that he had ties to a Communist organization. Welch's response ultimately ended McCarthy's career; Welch said: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness." Not detered, McCarthy pressed his attack, but Welch angrily interrupted and told McCarthy: "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"

Those last six words caused McCarthy's world to totally unravel. Three years later, at the age of 48, he died a broken man.

Decency matters.
wudge,
we were all saying this exact same stuff when pr was in stage 4 of cancer and it didn't seem to bother you. like i said, there's a very nice thread on here with just a nice remembrance of pr with just the facts of her passing. if this thread is bothering you, go and hang out at that one. we have strong opinions here and decency is not going to change that. where was pr's decency when jbr died.
 
  • #33
Nuisanceposter said:
I don't see discussing how Patsy could been the killer as venomous. It's discussion of the mother of the murdered child, who was present in the home the evening JonBenet was killed. No one is disrespecting her in saying that evidence looks like she might have been the killer. That's how the evidence is perceived to many who know of this case. It wasn't disrespect to talk about it last week when Patsy was alive, and it isn't disrespect now.

Seriously - for those of you who think discussion of that kind should suspend since it's indecent etc according to you - what is the length of time you think members of a forum discussing crimes and trials should wait before continuing to discuss the crime and subsequent events?

I think you may have misread, or misunderstood what she said.
surprise that after all of these years so many people could be so venomous toward Patsy even after her death.

I read it as her saying people still talk about Patsy, after almost 10 years, in a way that seems to express hatred of her on a personal level, not in just discussing her as the killer.

ellen13, I would except for a few factors. 1st it was x-mas and the traditional colors for the season seem to be black, red, & white....it's not like 100 other people in Boulder couldn't have been wearing something made from the same type of fabric that was just black and red...

Also there were unsourced animal hairs found in JonBenet's hand...not noted on the autopsy report...that have never been explained in more detail. What type of animal, what color were the hairs, how long were they, were they synthetic or natural, etc.
 
  • #34
ellen13 said:
hbgchick,
i respectfully ask you to give me some evidence that patsy was not involved in the cover up.
thanks,
ellen

Your request represents a logical fallacy, for no "cover-up" has been established as fact. Since your premise (a cover-up is true) is not fact, your request represents an attempt to turn conjecture/assumption into fact.

As gold cannot be spun from a sow's ear, conjecture, by itself, does not become fact. Hence, your logical fallacy -- a form of circuitous logic.
 
  • #35
When did it become a tradition for people to wear red, white & black on Christmas? That's a new one to me.
 
  • #36
Wudge said:
As gold cannot be spun from a sow's ear, conjecture, by itself, does not become fact. Hence, your logical fallacy -- a form of circuitous logic.
Thanks for the laughs Wudge. Speaking of conjecture, you may want to correct your own fallacy. ;)

The saying you muddled up is "you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". The other is "you cannot spin gold out of straw".
 
  • #37
wenchie said:
When did it become a tradition for people to wear red, white & black on Christmas? That's a new one to me.

I didn't say people traditionaly wore those colors, just that they are the traditional colors representing the season. Ever since the advent of Santa Claus....some few hundred, or possibly more years back.
 
  • #38
"I used to think PDI a long, long time ago, but then as I learned more and more I saw that most, if not all of the "evidence info" that we got all seemed to come from the same source. A source, IMO that is completely biased against Patsy all while giving John a complete pass."

I don't remember Mike Kane giving him a pass!

"It sounds like your asking for a "smoking gun" in this case .... there isn't one."

There isn't one in a lot of cases. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a case where it all clicked as kosher as in Hollywood movies.

"So now it's guilty until proven innocent?"

I didn't say that.

"I saw two very vicious posts regarding Steve Thomas in the thread about his new baby. Hmmm, RDIs abstained from posting mean things in the memorial thread for Patsy, but nonRDIs weren't able to do the same in a thread about Thomas's new baby. Talk about lack of decency..."

No kidding. A little consistency would be nice.

"Quite right. They tried. They did not succeed."

Tell you what, hbgchick: you tell me what you need, and I promise I'll do my best to give it to you.

"BTW Patsy's sweater was reportedly red, black and grey and there were no grey fibers found that we know about, just red and black ones."

That was her jacket, not the sweater she wore. In fact, she slipped up and said "sweater" instead of jacket.

"Thanks SuperDave. You had me going there on just one point, the fact that there were fibers of Patsy's sweater tied INTO the garrote, were found IN the paint tray, IN the duct tape, etc. etc. etc. Till I read it again and saw that key phrase..."we believe". Not "this happened", but "we believe this happened". From the DA. Sometimes one little word..."try"..."believe"...means a lot."

Well, hbgchick, if you're going to nitpick, it's lucky for us that I managed to dig up a more complete version of that exchange. Here it is for you:

Levin (again): "I have no evidence that suggests those fibers are from any other source."

At another part of this:

Kane: "It is identical in all scientific respects."

Wood: "Are you telling me it's conclusive?"

Kane: "It is identical."

He sounded pretty sure.

Here's another opinion: When asked if the fibers were incriminating, Smit replied: "Sure."

Look, if you want a smoking gun, I honestly can't give you that. I admit that, flat-out. But a lot of cases are made without one. You don't have to re-invent the wheel, if you'll allow me that phrase. But the FBI guys said that this case is what is sometimes referred to as a "gestalt;" the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. One brick is useless, but many bricks build a wall. It's a totality issue. That's the best I can give you for now. You're a good sport, hbgchick. I like that.
 
  • #39
Seeker said:
I didn't say people traditionaly wore those colors, just that they are the traditional colors representing the season. Ever since the advent of Santa Claus....some few hundred, or possibly more years back.

Excuse my ignorance. I'm from New Jersey, where the traditional Christmas colors and red & green, and where people wear a variety of colors on Christmas day.

"1st it was x-mas and the traditional colors for the season seem to be black, red, & white" sounds like one a dem dere "logical fallacies" to me.
 
  • #40
SuperDave said:
"I used to think PDI a long, long time ago, but then as I learned more and more I saw that most, if not all of the "evidence info" that we got all seemed to come from the same source. A source, IMO that is completely biased against Patsy all while giving John a complete pass."

I don't remember Mike Kane giving him a pass!
I didn't say Mike Kane now did I? Didn't even imply it was Mike Kane....
Why did you assume it was Mike Kane? Do you believe he leaked confidential police evidence information during the investigation?
 

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