For those who agree with the verdict...help me understand.

[Aqua_Green_Bean]

Hypothetically, what if Cindy realized that the Febreeze wasn't doing anything for the smell, so she grabbed a bottle of bleach, or maybe even some nice smelling laundry detergent (Tide with Bleach), and dumped it in the trunk and closed it up in hopes of getting rid of the putrid smell. Then, LE confiscated the car, ran air samples and found chloroform. That and the computer searches equated murder to them... but it really could've been something so simple like that.

If she had done that, there would have been a huge bleach stain on the trunk carpet liner.

 

[beccalecca1]

Ok, I'm not sure if you think all these people were lying or just mistaken. Your response is all over the map. You say some did smell it but should have acted differently. Others said they didn't smell it so the smell wasn't really there.So the ones that did smell it but act the wrong way could still be lying or still mistaken. The ones that didn't smell it are telling the truth and not mistaken.Wow, that was tough but I think I covered it.

Lol.. forgive me for not being clearer, my thoughts on this case are frequently all over the map :crazy:

Towyard manager and GA: took the stand and testified without a doubt it was human decomposition. But, neither called LE and appeared to be satisfied on that day to the garbage bag explanation, equaling they were mistaken.

Dr. Vass and Co: They were investigating the trunk for signs of human decomposition on a high profile case, using their new technology. Well, the trunk did stink (maybe it did have some rotting meat in the bag that turned into liquid after 2+ weeks of the FL heat). Power of suggestion may have been in place for the mistaken identity. Take that into the account of the reports generated didn't have one single chemical linked specifically to Human Decomp, but both animal or human. And, take into account that the 5 chemicals that Vass talked about (which can be found in food items) weren't on the list of 80 something chemicals the guy from Germany (I think) reported.

**I posted this on another forum and the original post is now gone, I wish I could post it word for word, but it went something like this. Dr. Vass stated out of the 30 chemicals that he's linked to human decomposition, 3 were found in the trunk. That is a 1/10 probability of a dead body in the trunk. Furthermore, the scientist in Germany links 80+ chemicals to human decomposition, and only 1 of those chemicals were found in the trunk. That is a 1/80+ probability. That is the evidence the state has given, and that has exploded through the media, and to me it is more likely that there was NO dead body in the trunk, because the real odds speak volumes.**


Other investigators involved July 15th: The investigators that were called to Hopesprings Dr. had already been notified about the car due to Cindy's last 911 call saying the car smelled like a dead body. Take into account that Cindy had already called 2 times before that on grand theft auto, etc. So, when they arrive on scene, they clearly had no reason to investigate the car, meaning it couldn't have smelled like much then. They knew the car was an issue that day and they didn't do anything with it. It wasn't until much later that they decided to do anything with that car. That means they (including Yuri) didn't smell anything that day or it would've been the first thing on their list.

 

[megsy]

Very good point. But if the trunk was aired out, how is obtaining a sample as its been contaminated by air and whatever for hours, how is that an accurate example as proof someone killed their child?

Googling "how to make chloroform", a dead child and evidence the child was in the trunk, coupled with the fact that chloroform was found in the trunk brings to mind "if it walks like a duck ..."

 

[MissJames]

To me, in order to believe that Casey was capable of killing her child because she was learning to speak is, I would have to believe in many other bizarre theories. I don't see someone killing their child because they're learning to speak. Isn't it expected that one day your child will talk? Why wouldn't she just not have the child, have an abortion, or kill the child before when it became clear that her child would one day learn to talk. Seriously, is it not common sense that your child will be talking one day?

And, what exactly was Casey trying to hide so much that she didn't want little Caylee tattling on her for? That she was out dating? That she didn't have a job? Come on! Casey lied to her parents about her pregnancy and I would think that's an even bigger lie then that she's not really working. And, she was stealing money left and right, I hope Casey would've realized that she wasn't that great about lying on the job thing. And the dating thing. If we believe Cindy truly gave her space so she could solidify a relationship with Jeffrey Hopkins, why would Casey kill her child so she could actually solidify a relationship with Tony? He didn't appear to be that bad of a guy, and it appeared like he liked Caylee. I'm sure Cindy would've accepted Tony if this didn't happen.

And, Casey took Caylee with her everywhere when her mom didn't babysit. And, her mom didn't babysit often enough for me to consider her a neglectful mother just trying to toss her daughter off on her parents. I've seen people like this with my own 2 eyes, and Casey didn't once appear to me as someone who thought her child was a burden. Yes, she made one comment that I know of calling her child a snot nose brat (or something like that), but one comment? She also made a comment to a friend about her daughter pooping in the potty.

To me, Casey would've been happy of the relationship Caylee had with Cindy. Keep in mind, Caylee didn't have other grandparents, other aunts and uncles, other family members in her life. Cindy was the grandmother, and that was that. Casey would've been grateful for her to be in Caylee's life. There was no other family there for Caylee, no other grandmom. I don't think Casey would get pissed and kill her child over some jealousy. Why not just take Caylee away from the family to 'show Cindy'?

Casey's entire life was a lie . She didn't graduate HS but went to great lengths to have everyone believe she was an event planner at Universal and a student at Valencia College. She stole .She stole thousands from CA (hundreds and hundreds of written checks stated in a sidebar by LDB on June 24th)She stole from her disabled grandfather and from her "best friend" Amy.
She told Amy that her parents were giving her the house and Amy could move in with her.Amy did a change of address and had a camera shipped to the home because she was supposed to move in any day now.
Before that ICA pretended she was looking at a house to rent for both of them.Texts ,very detailed about the people and their issues and any minute they could move in.OOPs it fell thru.....except it never happened.

Casey could no longer be the con artist ,the fraud that she was WITH EVERYBODY,if Caylee was talking. Add that to the list of things Casey couldn't do.Read the lie after lie after lie she writes in her texts to her "friends" .Everything she talked about was a lie.
And there was a text when a guy wanted her to come over for sex.She asked him if he wanted her to bring "the little snothead".Then goes on to pretend all afternoon that the nanny is coming back from a wedding in Tampa and as soon as she's back Casey will join him.Of course the nanny never makes it.Another excuse ,another lie.
She would lose the ability to LIE if Caylee talked and all Casey ever did was lie.
One of Lee's friends even told LE "we knew everything she said was a lie,but no one ever challanged her on it".

Really,if you want to understand why Casey would kill Caylee ,the discovery is all right here at WS.

 

[kelian36]

If she had done that, there would have been a huge bleach stain on the trunk carpet liner.

Not necessarily. I have carpet in my SUV and in my family room that can be bleached using 1/3 bleach and 2/3's water. The bleach and water mixture cannot stay on the carpet for long.

 

[megsy]

Ok I realize that I didn't answer your direct question. So let me throw one back at ya.

Conversely, since we know that chloroform is volatile, give me a reasonable example of how detectable amounts of chloroform would be found in a trunk that's been aired out? It's not like we've got chloroform falling out of the sky, kwim?

 

[kelian36]

respectfully snipped

Really,if you want to understand why Casey would kill Caylee ,the discovery is all right here at WS.

:rocker: MissJames,
No doubt. WS has the most comprehensive collection of facts, docs, etc than any other place on the net imo.
Like you said......the discovery is all right here.

Just picked up today's USA Today. Front page........2/3 of Americans polled say Casey is guilty.

 

[beccalecca1]

I hear what you're saying but it doesn't add up for me. There were no bleach stains. Chloroform is volatile. If it came from a cleaning agent and the car was aired out for hours (thus giving the chloroform time to evaporate or whatever it is the chloroform does -I am not a chemist!) how do we explain the high levels?

There was a whitish stain in the trunk, kind of like a thinner curved line. But, my theory is that Cindy put whatever in that trunk and closed it for the final time. The next time the trunk was messed with was when they collected the air samples. She probably closed the trunk thinking that whatever in combination of the dryer sheets would soak up the putrid smell that was there.

 

[megsy]

Not necessarily. I have carpet in my SUV and in my family room that can be bleached using 1/3 bleach and 2/3's water. The bleach and water mixture cannot stay on the carpet for long.

I am not a chemist!

Would that be enough to find the chloroform they detected?

 

[Baznme]

I have followed this case from day 1. I've read every document. I've scoured through this forum the whole time and probably read nearly every post. I watched every minute of the courtroom drama to include bond hearings, motion hearings, pretrial hearings of every kind. And didn't miss a minute of the Trial. I've watched more TH's than I want to admit. And, I still think IMO this was a accident. Again, JMO and of course respect your as well.

I agree but, chloroform in high levels didn't get in that trunk all by itself. Yes, I know it's been scrutinized to the fullest extent. The fact remains it was there. Chloroform reference on the computer, in the trunk and at the remains site indicates to me it's trail. It's reasonable to believe it was in the trunk before AND after Caylee's death. The duct tape was either to stop the fluids from leaking and/or to stage a kidnspping IMO shouldn't have been there at all and probably wasn't done until the next day when she backed the car into the garage, so even if it was an "accident", due to the willful act to put her in the trunk to begin with was "aggravated child abuse" I think the problem from the start was trying to prove "premeditation" via the computer searches. I don't think she expected Caylee to perish, just to sleep through "one more night", so she could have her evening with Tony, therefore, that's the only part of this that it may have deemed it an accident. IMO, the biggest mistake was not looking more closely at the trunk evidence that clearly equates to " Willfully torturing, maliciously punishing, or willfully and unlawfully caging a child". The trunk was her cage, filled with chloroform that poisoned her system to the extent of causing her little brain to shut down her ability to breathe. That being said, Even IF it WAS an accident, the definition is clear.

OR willfully and unlawfully caging a child; OR Knowingly or willfully abusing a child and in so doing causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

If it resulted in the death of a child, most certainly leaves the aggravator as the one responsible.......unintended death or not.

BTW, IMO, Febreeze dryer sheets do not elevate chloroform to 10,000 times normal level.

 

[beccalecca1]

If she had done that, there would have been a huge bleach stain on the trunk carpet liner.

I know this is probably a stupid question, but isn't Tide with Bleach safe for colors? Meaning it wouldn't stain the liner?

 

[Chablis]

There was a whitish stain in the trunk, kind of like a thinner curved line. But, my theory is that Cindy put whatever in that trunk and closed it for the final time. The next time the trunk was messed with was when they collected the air samples. She probably closed the trunk thinking that whatever in combination of the dryer sheets would soak up the putrid smell that was there.

Great point, and this would make sense. The air samples meant nothing after the Anthonys opened it up.. Lab Error is now a possible as well.

 

[pcrum12]

ITA

We're talking about lay people who may not understand everything the experts are saying, therefore you really want to get your point across. I think it's completely appropriate for the jury to expect the prosecution to lay it out for them. If they're not laying it out for them, you have to wonder what are they hiding?

And, to expect any less would just equate to lazier prosecutors and lazier LE. If you're going to go after the DP, then you better make sure your case is solid enough for it.

Your post reminds me of during the trial and alot (most) were just bashing JB all day long about asking the same question over and over like he was dumb. Lol. Like someone said, you gotta make your point a few times to instill it in the jury so they remember it. I remember thinking everytime someone bashed him, "yea, I think he is trying to make a point and get them to remember and have them remember THIS IS IMPORTANT"

 

[Aqua_Green_Bean]

**I posted this on another forum and the original post is now gone, I wish I could post it word for word, but it went something like this. Dr. Vass stated out of the 30 chemicals that he's linked to human decomposition, 3 were found in the trunk. That is a 1/10 probability of a dead body in the trunk. Furthermore, the scientist in Germany links 80+ chemicals to human decomposition, and only 1 of those chemicals were found in the trunk. That is a 1/80+ probability. That is the evidence the state has given, and that has exploded through the media, and to me it is more likely that there was NO dead body in the trunk, because the real odds speak volumes.**

I would need to go back and re-listen to the testimony Dr. Vass gave, so I apologize in advance if I misspeak. But recalling from memory, I am pretty sure Dr. Vass said he was speaking on a conservative side when he said only 3 were found. It was more, but he eliminated those because they could
have been caused by something else.

And IMO, an important thing to remember is that the body was inside TWO heavy duty black trash bags and then inside a canvas bag that was lined with a waterproof, plastic-like material. It wasn't like the pig experiment that Dr. Huntington did where he just put an unwrapped pig in the trunk.

 

[beccalecca1]

Casey's entire life was a lie . She didn't graduate HS but went to great lengths to have everyone believe she was an event planner at Universal and a student at Valencia College. She stole .She stole thousands from CA (hundreds and hundreds of written checks stated in a sidebar by LDB on June 24th)She stole from her disabled grandfather and from her "best friend" Amy.
She told Amy that her parents were giving her the house and Amy could move in with her.Amy did a change of address and had a camera shipped to the home because she was supposed to move in any day now.
Before that ICA pretended she was looking at a house to rent for both of them.Texts ,very detailed about the people and their issues and any minute they could move in.OOPs it fell thru.....except it never happened.

Casey could no longer be the con artist ,the fraud that she was WITH EVERYBODY,if Caylee was talking. Add that to the list of things Casey couldn't do.Read the lie after lie after lie she writes in her texts to her "friends" .Everything she talked about was a lie.
And there was a text when a guy wanted her to come over for sex.She asked him if he wanted her to bring "the little snothead".Then goes on to pretend all afternoon that the nanny is coming back from a wedding in Tampa and as soon as she's back Casey will join him.Of course the nanny never makes it.Another excuse ,another lie.
She would lose the ability to LIE if Caylee talked and all Casey ever did was lie.
One of Lee's friends even told LE "we knew everything she said was a lie,but no one ever challanged her on it".

Really,if you want to understand why Casey would kill Caylee ,the discovery is all right here at WS.

Ok, I hear you. But, if that were really the case, Casey killed her child because she was going to tell the truth about Casey, why don't other pathological liars kill their children?

I'm sure we all know someone that makes up ridiculous lies, non-sense lies, exaggerations, etc. I'm sure we all know someone like this who also has children. What happens to those kids??? They lie for their parents and learn to lie as adults. Those people don't kill their children out of fear of telling the truth. And, in that frame of mind, why wouldn't they kill the people they are with who know the truth out of fear of the truth coming out? For instance, Casey was lying to her mom that she was in Jacksonville, but was instead out partying with her friends. Her brother was hot on her trail, and so was his fiance. Why wouldn't Casey just kill any one of them to cover up her truth? Instead, she kills her child to cover up her truth?

 

[MissJames]

To me, in order to believe that Casey was capable of killing her child because she was learning to speak is, I would have to believe in many other bizarre theories. I don't see someone killing their child because they're learning to speak. Isn't it expected that one day your child will talk? Why wouldn't she just not have the child, have an abortion, or kill the child before when it became clear that her child would one day learn to talk. Seriously, is it not common sense that your child will be talking one day?

And, what exactly was Casey trying to hide so much that she didn't want little Caylee tattling on her for? That she was out dating? That she didn't have a job? Come on! Casey lied to her parents about her pregnancy and I would think that's an even bigger lie then that she's not really working. And, she was stealing money left and right, I hope Casey would've realized that she wasn't that great about lying on the job thing. And the dating thing. If we believe Cindy truly gave her space so she could solidify a relationship with Jeffrey Hopkins, why would Casey kill her child so she could actually solidify a relationship with Tony? He didn't appear to be that bad of a guy, and it appeared like he liked Caylee. I'm sure Cindy would've accepted Tony if this didn't happen.

And, Casey took Caylee with her everywhere when her mom didn't babysit. And, her mom didn't babysit often enough for me to consider her a neglectful mother just trying to toss her daughter off on her parents. I've seen people like this with my own 2 eyes, and Casey didn't once appear to me as someone who thought her child was a burden. Yes, she made one comment that I know of calling her child a snot nose brat (or something like that), but one comment? She also made a comment to a friend about her daughter pooping in the potty.

To me, Casey would've been happy of the relationship Caylee had with Cindy. Keep in mind, Caylee didn't have other grandparents, other aunts and uncles, other family members in her life. Cindy was the grandmother, and that was that. Casey would've been grateful for her to be in Caylee's life. There was no other family there for Caylee, no other grandmom. I don't think Casey would get pissed and kill her child over some jealousy. Why not just take Caylee away from the family to 'show Cindy'?

Why not just take Caylee away from Cindy :waitasec:

Because then Casey would have to A) take care of her B)pay for her food,clothing,daycare,dr,etc C) find a place to live and pay for it D)Give up partying (you see ,as an event planner she would leave Caylee with Cindy and George at night and on weekends.Perfect lie to cover her "dates",right?

 

[beccalecca1]

I agree but, chloroform in high levels didn't get in that trunk all by itself. Yes, I know it's been scrutinized to the fullest extent. The fact remains it was there. Chloroform reference on the computer, in the trunk and at the remains site indicates to me it's trail.

snip


IIRC, the only chloroform that was in trial that was at the remains site was the chloroform found in the gatorade bottle, that was cleaning solution. The SA thought this was unrelated to the case, and I believe DT introduced it to introduce that chloroform is in cleaning products.

 

[Chablis]

Why not just take Caylee away from Cindy :waitasec:

Because then Casey would have to A) take care of her B)pay for her food,clothing,daycare,dr,etc C) find a place to live and pay for it D)Give up partying (you see ,as an event planner she would leave Caylee with Cindy and George at night and on weekends.Perfect lie to cover her "dates",right?

Realistically though, shes a pretty girl and has no problem getting guys. If her mom took her daughter do you really think it would be that hard to find a guy with an apartment to stay and get a job like at a bar, kind of how she did?

 

[Phoebeb]

Googling "how to make chloroform", a dead child and evidence the child was in the trunk, coupled with the fact that chloroform was found in the trunk brings to mind "if it walks like a duck ..."

And whoever purposely deleted the chloroform search files from the computer means whoever did the deleting knew it was not an innocent search.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Lol.. forgive me for not being clearer, my thoughts on this case are frequently all over the map :crazy:

Towyard manager and GA: took the stand and testified without a doubt it was human decomposition. But, neither called LE and appeared to be satisfied on that day to the garbage bag explanation, equaling they were mistaken.

Dr. Vass and Co: They were investigating the trunk for signs of human decomposition on a high profile case, using their new technology. Well, the trunk did stink (maybe it did have some rotting meat in the bag that turned into liquid after 2+ weeks of the FL heat). Power of suggestion may have been in place for the mistaken identity. Take that into the account of the reports generated didn't have one single chemical linked specifically to Human Decomp, but both animal or human. And, take into account that the 5 chemicals that Vass talked about (which can be found in food items) weren't on the list of 80 something chemicals the guy from Germany (I think) reported.

**I posted this on another forum and the original post is now gone, I wish I could post it word for word, but it went something like this. Dr. Vass stated out of the 30 chemicals that he's linked to human decomposition, 3 were found in the trunk. That is a 1/10 probability of a dead body in the trunk. Furthermore, the scientist in Germany links 80+ chemicals to human decomposition, and only 1 of those chemicals were found in the trunk. That is a 1/80+ probability. That is the evidence the state has given, and that has exploded through the media, and to me it is more likely that there was NO dead body in the trunk, because the real odds speak volumes.**


Other investigators involved July 15th: The investigators that were called to Hopesprings Dr. had already been notified about the car due to Cindy's last 911 call saying the car smelled like a dead body. Take into account that Cindy had already called 2 times before that on grand theft auto, etc. So, when they arrive on scene, they clearly had no reason to investigate the car, meaning it couldn't have smelled like much then. They knew the car was an issue that day and they didn't do anything with it. It wasn't until much later that they decided to do anything with that car. That means they (including Yuri) didn't smell anything that day or it would've been the first thing on their list.

Wow. I think we have a mistaken for GA and Towyard guy.Then we go off to Dr Vass and Co. and the science.I'm sorry I was curious about testimony people had a about the smell in regards to what their nose told them.Forgive me if I was unclear.But so far I don't see anyone lying. Just would like your opinion. Thanks.