Forensic evidence

[Solace]

Were there actually found fibers from John's underwear in JonBenet's room?

I never heard of that but would love to read the source.

 

[UKGuy]

The forensic evidence (Patsy 's jacket fibers in the wrappings of the garrote, on the duct tape and in the paint tray, the ransom note in her handwriting, clumsily tied knots) implicates her as the main stager of the scene, and imo it is logical to assume that she was involved in the killing of her daughter.

I find a scenario highly unlikely in which John not only would confess to Patsy of having killed JB, but also, on top of that, then ask his wife to stage the scene.

rashomon,

imo it is logical to assume that she was involved in the killing of her daughter.

Absolutely agree that she was involved, but did she deliver the final blow?

I find a scenario highly unlikely in which John not only would confess to Patsy of having killed JB, but also, on top of that, then ask his wife to stage the scene.

What you say sounds reasonable except you seem to agree Patsy enacted some staging, so why does John collude, why does he involve himself in what is now patently a case of cold blooded murder. e.g. if its improbable for Patsy to become engaged in John's staging after he has killed JonBenet, then explain cogently why John should become involved in Patsy's staging after she has killed JonBenet?

Lets assume that Patsy sexually assaulted JonBenet as she lay dying, euphemistically referred to by the investigators as vaginal trauma, which I reckon had an ulterior motive.

Consider at a later date Patsy defending John from allegations of molesting JonBenet, by citing the presence of Nedra. So did John not see this coming, did he never think, now Patsy killed JonBenet and staged an intruder scenario that has a sexual component, hey, they might think it was me?

So why does he ever get involved, why is it you find a scenario highly unlikely in one direction but not the other?


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[Tober]

Also if you hold Patsy responsible due to the application of the fake garrote, then in addition to the denial of medical assistance it looks like to me that JonBenet was intended to die?

Yes. Forensic evidence supports Patsy applying the fake garrote to JonBenet's neck while JonBenet was still living but unconscious. From that, the inference can be made (supported by that act and the circumstances) that Patsy caused JonBenet's head injury. By application of the fake garrote, Patsy is responsible for JonBenet's murder. By causing JonBenet's head injury, Patsy is responsible for child abuse resulting in death.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes. Forensic evidence supports Patsy applying the fake garrote to JonBenet's neck while JonBenet was still living but unconscious. From that, the inference can be made (supported by that act and the circumstances) that Patsy caused JonBenet's head injury. By application of the fake garrote, Patsy is responsible for JonBenet's murder. By causing JonBenet's head injury, Patsy is responsible for child abuse resulting in death.

Tober,

Sure you can make that inference, but that is all it is, it may actually have been John who applied the lethal blow to JonBenet's skull, as she lay face down on her white blankets?

We do not know, but assuming that you are correct then we have one cruel and truly disturbed woman who strangles and bludgeons her own daughter to death, also sexually assaulting her.

So why did John choose to become part of such a brutal and callous murder?


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[Tober]

So why did John choose to become part of such a brutal and callous murder?

Who knows what power and secrets Patsy held over John? Just speculating here, but maybe in his mind John blamed JonBenet for setting Patsy off. It's as if they had some bizarre hatred of JonBenet (I guess they did to do what was done). They certainly distanced themselves from her and what happened to her.

 

[UKGuy]

Who knows what power and secrets Patsy held over John? Just speculating here, but maybe in his mind John blamed JonBenet for setting Patsy off. It's as if they had some bizarre hatred of JonBenet (I guess they did to do what was done). They certainly distanced themselves from her and what happened to her.

Tober,

You have a point, there was certainly something going on beyond anything that could ever be regarded as accidental.


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[Toltec]

John did leave the house...checked a garage door to see if it was unlocked. He told this to Detectives. He said he was gone a few seconds...

Agent Ron Walker entered the Ramsey home AFTER JonBenet had been found. He went directly to the wine cellar.

 

[DeeDee249]

In PMPT, Linda Arndt is shown speaking to her superiors and mentioning JR as being unaccounted for for an hour. I realize some "artistic license" could have been taken, but I had read other places that he was missing at least that long...to "get the mail".

 

[JMO8778]

Were there actually found fibers from John's underwear in JonBenet's room?

I don't know, but it sure does seem in DOI he is trying to account for some there.There also seems to be other things both R's are trying to account for throughout the whole book.....DOI,pprback,p. 13:

For the first time I am aware that I have been racing around the house in my underwear.I hurry back to the third floor bedroom to grab my clothes.I stop in JonBenet's room and look under the bed to make sure she isn't there.

I'm not going to type out the rest of the page,it's too long,but he goes on to talk about his first daughter being killed in a car accident,then says he finishes getting dressed in JB's room.

 

[JMO8778]

Tober,

Sure you can make that inference, but that is all it is, it may actually have been John who applied the lethal blow to JonBenet's skull, as she lay face down on her white blankets?

We do not know, but assuming that you are correct then we have one cruel and truly disturbed woman who strangles and bludgeons her own daughter to death, also sexually assaulting her.

So why did John choose to become part of such a brutal and callous murder?


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JR was a businessman and image to him was everything.How would it have looked for him to have a killer for a wife,in his position? I think it would have been pretty embarrassing to him,and that's putting it lightly.
I think MONEY and IMAGE,above all,was most important to him,and THAT is why he helped out...I think we all underestimate the power of that if we think it was all just b/c he felt sorry for Patsy...I don't think he did.He'd already lost one daughter,and I think he was seething at her at this point.Thus the reason neither comforted each other that morning,nor did JR comfort a crying Patsy later on at a restaurant when she fell apart.He ignored her.

 

[UKGuy]

JR was a businessman and image to him was everything.How would it have looked for him to have a killer for a wife,in his position? I think it would have been pretty embarrassing to him,and that's putting it lightly.
I think MONEY and IMAGE,above all,was most important to him,and THAT is why he helped out...I think we all underestimate the power of that if we think it was all just b/c he felt sorry for Patsy...I don't think he did.He'd already lost one daughter,and I think he was seething at her at this point.Thus the reason neither comforted each other that morning,nor did JR comfort a crying Patsy later on at a restaurant when she fell apart.He ignored her.

JMO8778,

Image was particularly important to Machiavelli who advised his Princes to dress soberly, attend church, profess christian values and be seen in public with the right people.

Politicians such as Blair and Bush have put these principles into action and when it comes to killing they have adopted another of Machiavelli's nostrums which is to simply wipe out your opponent, since dead people cannot retaliate.

Now John Ramsey as a business man can be seen to also adopt some of these ploys, but he must have realized, he would have no image left to defend once JonBenet's corpse was discovered strangled and sexually assaulted in his own basement. His then curtailed career path is a testament to this, and his subsequent sideline in generating revenue based on events relating to the death of JonBenet, e.g. J.M. Karr, demonstrates he values capital over image.

JonBenet's death and her corpse were a faite accompli, JR has nothing left to defend!


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[Eagle1]

John did leave the house...checked a garage door to see if it was unlocked. He told this to Detectives. He said he was gone a few seconds...

Agent Ron Walker entered the Ramsey home AFTER JonBenet had been found. He went directly to the wine cellar.

Had there been time for Agt Walker to have heard that the body was found in the wine cellar?

Another good point from this page, JR might think, "Hey, if we stage this with a sexual component, people may think it was me."

And another, didn't we discuss that PW had a jacket PR admired so she bought one just like it? Those fibers could even be PW's, a defense attorney for PR might argue. Maybe even from a previous visit, no-telling how long ago.

See also a link I'll have to come back and edit in about the pubic hair, not matching anyone in the family, (after a bit about warrants) that someone named Mueller said was the one thing preventing solving the case. He said a defense attorney could do a lot with that hair. And that the white blanket could have been loaned to someone earlier. (Wasn't the piece of duct tape a previously-used one? Why? ) Needless to say, a defense attorney could easily argue that the family weren't, as they themselves claimed, the only ones in the house. That seems so obvious.

Wasn't the barbie nightgown stuck to the blanket, static cling, and if so, would the DNA have been destroyed by laundering? Evidently they didn't get any. Would it have been still sticking to the blanket at all after laundering or would it have disintegrated and/or gone into the lint trap? Of course, hair clings pretty well. Evidently they didn't always use a drier sheet.

Here's that link.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/1005jon.htm

 

[Solace]

Had there been time for Agt Walker to have heard that the body was found in the wine cellar?

Another good point from this page, JR might think, "Hey, if we stage this with a sexual component, people may think it was me."

And another, didn't we discuss that PW had a jacket PR admired so she bought one just like it? Those fibers could even be PW's, a defense attorney for PR might argue. Maybe even from a previous visit, no-telling how long ago.

See also a link I'll have to come back and edit in about the pubic hair, not matching anyone in the family, (after a bit about warrants) that someone named Mueller said was the one thing preventing solving the case. He said a defense attorney could do a lot with that hair. And that the white blanket could have been loaned to someone earlier. (Wasn't the piece of duct tape a previously-used one? Why? ) Needless to say, a defense attorney could easily argue that the family weren't, as they themselves claimed, the only ones in the house. That seems so obvious.

Wasn't the barbie nightgown stuck to the blanket, static cling, and if so, would the DNA have been destroyed by laundering? Evidently they didn't get any. Would it have been still sticking to the blanket at all after laundering or would it have disintegrated and/or gone into the lint trap? Of course, hair clings pretty well. Evidently they didn't always use a drier sheet.

Here's that link.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...ey/1005jon.htm

\
As I understand the pubic hair was not a pubic hair at all but a hair from Patsy's arm.

Also the link you provided says : The link is either outdated, inaccurate or may be in the process of being updated.

 

[Albert18]

Yes. Forensic evidence supports Patsy applying the fake garrote to JonBenet's neck while JonBenet was still living but unconscious. From that, the inference can be made (supported by that act and the circumstances) that Patsy caused JonBenet's head injury. By application of the fake garrote, Patsy is responsible for JonBenet's murder. By causing JonBenet's head injury, Patsy is responsible for child abuse resulting in death.

And what happened after that night also points to Patsy.

If Burke had killed JonBenet, I think Patsy would have grieved like a normal mother. She didn't. Plus, I think there would have been a strained relationship between Patsy and Burke, which we never saw

Ditto with John.

If an outsider had killed JonBenet, I think Patsy would have been Beth Twitty X 10. Elizabeth Smart's dad X 20. She would have had Chief Koby in a choke hold ten minutes after the police were called. We saw none of that. Every time I saw Patsy she always looked like the defendent at a trial and John looked like her confident, smooth attorney.

When I see how Patsy grieved, the only conclusion I can draw is that she was the one who caused her separation from JonBenet.

 

[Eagle1]

............
As I understand the pubic hair was not a pubic hair at all but a hair from Patsy's arm.

Also the link you provided says : The link is either outdated, inaccurate or may be in the process of being updated.

Error message came up when I tried to use the usual email copy/paste to get to your post. That was probably also an error message due to either the equipment or the population's pressures to cover up.

There wouldn't have to be a majority, for activists to have the louder voice than ordinary people. I wouldn't put much stock in these disclaimers. Nope, I didn't try going to the link again, just going by experience and your obvious need to say something's wrong with it.

Women don't have ape hair on their arms and do nothing about it, especially a former beauty queen. PR knew all about grooming.

Sorry but that's patently ridiculous! How could you fall for that?

 

[Eagle1]

........................

When I see how Patsy grieved, the only conclusion I can draw is that she was the one who caused her separation from JonBenet.

By not paying enough attention to JonBenet in the presence of others, and evidently engaging in some kind of shameful practice that she'd rather be accused of murder than admit to, I agree. There's always guilt in anyone's grief process, for instance, "Could I have done something more to save this person?" "Was there some cry for help that didn't sink in with me?" I agree the R's had some guilts, maybe even direct involvement in whatever the activity may have been. But, just like on the 23rd when JBR was found crying, they weren't paying enough attention to HER. Didn't know how far this would go and that they would be left holding the bag.

The Van Dams had to admit they were doing something disreputable, which evidently wasn't quite as bad as an unknown-to-the-parents-surely murderous one. Besides the shame, the R's would have been in danger if they'd revealed what was really going on, a defense attorney could easily say.

 

[Albert18]

...
Another good point from this page, JR might think, "Hey, if we stage this with a sexual component, people may think it was me." ...

This is a very, very good point. Would a man stage a sex crime? Would a dad stage a sex crime on his own daughter?

Isn't the purpose of staging to direct the focus of the crime away from yourself. For a mother, a sex crime staging would be perfect, but it could be a disaster for the dad.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If an outsider had killed JonBenet, I think Patsy would have been Beth Twitty X 10. Elizabeth Smart's dad X 20. She would have had Chief Koby in a choke hold ten minutes after the police were called.

Absolutely. I've said the same thing. She'd have steamrolled BPD and demanded answers relentlessly if this had been the work of an intruder. They'd have had the fiercest mother they'd ever seen in their faces on a regular basis if some stranger had broke in and killed her baby girl.

 

[Solace]

Error message came up when I tried to use the usual email copy/paste to get to your post. That was probably also an error message due to either the equipment or the population's pressures to cover up.

There wouldn't have to be a majority, for activists to have the louder voice than ordinary people. I wouldn't put much stock in these disclaimers. Nope, I didn't try going to the link again, just going by experience and your obvious need to say something's wrong with it.

Women don't have ape hair on their arms and do nothing about it, especially a former beauty queen. PR knew all about grooming.

Sorry but that's patently ridiculous! How could you fall for that?

Eagle. You don't have to look like an ape to have hair on your arms and every woman that I looked at this morning has hair on her arms. It is not patently ridiculous; however, your theory on Pagans is. You are living in bibilical times my friend.

 

[sister]

I agree - how could a father stage a sex crime on his own daughter?
Similarly, I have a hard time believing that any mother, including Patsy, could do to her child what was done to JonBenet. I don't get the impression that Patsy was an evil, cruel person. If she did aciidentally harm JonBenet, how could she be in a state of mind to plan all the staging?