France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[Paul]

Good find, Niteowl, thank you. That looks like a good match. I was going with the Scorpion because it was mentioned as a possibility in a news story.

There's one thing that bugs me - how would anyone (police or reporter) know the number of leftover bullets? It could be any number. I think some reporter guessed that "he shot until he ran out".

My guess would be that the killer was highly skilled, and not likely to run out of ammo. He had to be ready for any situation, including people shooting back at him (even though that didn't happen). So I'm guessing he had a large amount of leftover ammo. That seems more likely than zero.

 

[katydid23]

What I meant was that, hopefully, it sounds like she hasn't suffered brain damage as a result of her ordeal.

Oh, I agree. I knew what you meant and I totally agree that it is a great relief that she can speak and understand words. I just wonder how much she will be able to remember.

I know two people who had head injuries and were put into comas. Neither of them could remember their accidents or even the day of the accident.

My son's friend hit his head on a curb during a skateboarding accident. They brought him out of a coma after 3 weeks or so. He could not remember anything from the previous year. One of the first things he asked was " Did I graduate?"

 

[wfgodot]

Okay, so we know - at least sort of - the type of gun involved, and all the bullets are said to have been fired from it alone. How does this affect the various theories of the case?

 

[katydid23]

Okay, so we know - at least sort of - the type of gun involved, and all the bullets are said to have been fired from it alone. How does this affect the various theories of the case?

If it was one shooter and one gun, then it does not seem like political espionage, imo.

 

[wfgodot]

If it was one shooter and one gun, then it does not seem like political espionage, imo.

Yeah, that was my first thought too. Seems more personal.

Then again, perhaps professionals wouldn't fire multiple weapons unless absolutely necessary as that would double (or triple, etc.) the chances of identifying them based on the type of weapon used.

Whatever the case, they (or he, or she) left two living witnesses. Botched job.

 

[kiwi50]

The family may have been there for an hour, but could have been dead for most of the time .
The second cyclist who found the bodies didn't appear to hear the shots so how far behind the first cyclist was he.
Do we know exactly how much earlier the first cyclist passed him?.
I am a bit cynical about witnesses when it comes to relating time.
The witness who said they had passed his place an hour earlier could very easily be wrong, why would you even note when a car went past you while you were working.

 

[Skigh]

By Victoria Ward, Henry Samuel and Martin Evans


A British man murdered with his wife and mother-in-law while on holiday in the French Alps was acting strangely in the days before his death, leaving his family alone several times each day before inexplicably switching campsites without notice, it emerged Monday.

Saad al-Hilli, 50, checked into the Village Camping Europa site in Saint-Jorioz on Saturday last week after making a “spontaneous reservation”.

He told fellow tourists that he and his family planned to stay for a week but then suddenly checked out on the following Monday, transferring to the Solitaire du Lac campsite, a few hundred yards down the road.

During their brief stay at the former site, Hilli is alleged to have driven off four or five times a day, leaving his 47-year-old wife Iqbal, his mother-in-law Suhaila al-Allaf, 74, and daughters Zainab, seven and Zeena, four, at the site.

Two Dutch tourists, Jan Janssen and his friend Anne-Marie Souderman, disclosed that they had spent two days camping close to the Hilli family at the Village Camping Europa site.

Janssen said: “We were told they planned to stay all week but they left suddenly after two days. The father left the site in his car alone four or five times each day. He went out for 20 or 30 minutes each time.

“The first time we thought he was going to the shops but it was very odd to go out so often.”

Although they did not see anyone visit the family they said they noticed an “unusual” man dressed in a smart jacket visiting the campsite at the time the Hillis were there. They said that he appeared “to come from the Balkans”.



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Bri...ore+killings/7219863/story.html#ixzz266cpjA3b

 

[~n/t~]

What was he doing? This case will haunt me until I get all the answers which I doubt will ever happen.

Could he have been into some other illegal activities not necessarily related to his line of work?

It appears he was aware of something coming down by moving and then suddenly fleeing.

Where did he go 4-5 times a day?

 

[jjenny]

Could he have been concerned somebody was following them? That's what constant moving suggests to me.

 

[jjenny]

Oh, I agree. I knew what you meant and I totally agree that it is a great relief that she can speak and understand words. I just wonder how much she will be able to remember.

I know two people who had head injuries and were put into comas. Neither of them could remember their accidents or even the day of the accident.

My son's friend hit his head on a curb during a skateboarding accident. They brought him out of a coma after 3 weeks or so. He could not remember anything from the previous year. One of the first things he asked was " Did I graduate?"

Yes, it's highly unlikely she remembers anything about the murders.

 

[Snoopster]

<snipped>
Going back a few posts, to have the engine still running would have meant the car was in neutral gear, being shot mid escape would have resulted in the car stalling - automatics are only a tiny % of UK vehicles.

Has anyone done a check on the Reg No to find out if it was an Automatic or Manual?

I am dense. Of course I know that most UK vehicles are manual, but do you think that I even thought of this in this case??

As far as automatics go, I believe that many luxury cars these days automatically lock once you hit a certain speed (not super fast). When I read that the car's engine was still running and the vehicle was locked but that the daughter was outside the vehicle, I presumed that upon acceleration (in an attempt to get out of there) the doors automatically locked.

 

[wfgodot]

Here's the new Mail article; same basic info as that Skigh linked above (#427), with "Balkans Man," etc.:

Why did massacre family leave campsite in a hurry? Murder victims switched base two days before bloodbath

 

[Snoopster]

The family may have been there for an hour, but could have been dead for most of the time .
The second cyclist who found the bodies didn't appear to hear the shots so how far behind the first cyclist was he.
Do we know exactly how much earlier the first cyclist passed him?.
I am a bit cynical about witnesses when it comes to relating time.
The witness who said they had passed his place an hour earlier could very easily be wrong, why would you even note when a car went past you while you were working.

It's difficult to imagine that it was anything close to an hour. If you look at the map, you wouldn't even know you were on the same route until very close to Chevaline, and it is only a few kilometers past there to where the murder took place. I guess he could have passed him elsewhere, much earlier, and then recognized him?

I still don't think they were that far apart. MOO

 

[Snoopster]

Paul, I asked my son, an expert, about this case and this is what he came up with:

The commercial version of the cz 83 is available chambered in 7.65 with 15 round magazines…

I believe that it will likely be one of the CZ model pistols – likely the cz82

Cz82/83 (12rd mag) 15 rd mags are available too
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/chex/cz-82-83-e.html

cz40/70 (8 rd mag)
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/chex/cz-50-cz-70-e.html
--
The 12 round version would also have an additional round allready in the chamber=25 rounds.

This means he would have had to reload. So, first shots incapacitated everyone (except possibly the 7 year old) and final shots after reloading were to make sure they were dead (and possibly send a message with the two shots to the head?)

 

[sherlockh]

Poor girl. It seems like she remembers the terror, but I don't think there is all that much to tell anyway. Maybe a car and/or motorcycle then shootings. It probably didn't take longer than a minute.

"I'm so scared": French Alps massacre schoolgirl speaks first words and asks family members, "What's happening?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-zainab-al-hilli-1318328

 

[Snoopster]

I have read mixed reports about the grandfather's (i.e. Saad's father, Kadhem or Kadhim) death in the Malaga area. Some articles imply that he was missing for six days, while others state that he was found in an apartment six days after he was last seen.

There's a big difference between these two scenarios.

Was there anything suspicious about his death?

 

[fhc]

I have read mixed reports about the grandfather's (i.e. Saad's father, Kadhem or Kadhim) death in the Malaga area. Some articles imply that he was missing for six days, while others state that he was found in an apartment six days after he was last seen.

There's a big difference between these two scenarios.

Was there anything suspicious about his death?

Read the comments under the article that Wfgodot last posted, one recent comment is very interesting, jmo.

(Unrelated to the grandfather's death.)

 

[Snoopster]

Poor girl. It seems like she remembers the terror, but I don't think there is all that much to tell anyway. Maybe a car and/or motorcycle then shootings. It probably didn't take longer than a minute.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-alps-shooting-zainab-al-hilli-1318328

Just bouncing off your post...I feel very uncomfortable every time that they mention the children. I wish the media wouldn't comment. I don't think the public deserves to know everything that is going on with them. JMO.

 

[wfgodot]

Read the comments under the article that Wfgodot last posted, one recent comment is very interesting, jmo.

(Unrelated to the grandfather's death.)

Which one? The "French guy on bike was the target and the rest were just collateral damage" one, or the "odd confluence of the places of employment of the two male victims plus discovery of the scene by an ex-RAF guy," i.e., the "military-industrial complex role" one? Or the "For all we know U.S. or U.K. spooks could have done the hit and we'll never know"? Or "Mossad involvement"? How about the "Paris serial killer used similar weapon and escaped on motorbike" one? (Arrest has been made in that one I think.)

Head....is....spinning.

 

[fhc]

Which one? The "French guy on bike was the target and the rest were just collateral damage" one, or the "odd confluence of the places of employment of the two male victims plus discovery of the scene by an ex-RAF guy," i.e., the "military-industrial complex role" one? Or the "For all we know U.S. or U.K. spooks could have done the hit and we'll never know"? Or "Mossad involvement"? How about the "Paris serial killer used similar weapon and escaped on motorbike" one? (Arrest has been made in that one I think.)

Head....is....spinning.

Idk how much we are allowed to quote from comments but check out 10/9/2012 16:43