France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[wfgodot]

Idk how much we are allowed to quote from comments but check out 10/9/2012 16:43

The Paris serial killer used same/similar weapon 16:43, or the sister is a control freak 16:43? lolol

 

[Snoopster]

Just trying to catch up with all of the posters after the last 12 hours. Sorry for so many posts close together.

So what do we have so far?

British family with Iraqi ties takes vacation in France. According to reports they either always enjoy traveling in France, or they suddenly took off.

Saad is fine, or he is nervous. His neighbours are more than willing to share their observations with the media. They universally say that Saad, and the rest of family, are nice. Almost no one comments on the wife, Iqbal (or Ikbal), apparently a dentist).

Saad is working on a sensitive project, or he is working on a completely ordinary project, prior to their departure. Saad works in his own company in satellites and imaging, but in the past he worked in the nuclear business (or not!).

A neighbour volunteers that British Intelligence montored the family during the Iraq war. (The neighbour let them park in his driveway, yet talks about what a wonderful family they are.)


The family drives their vehicle, a BMW X5, and cross at Calais. They take a long time to get to the campground (or they don't). They switch campgrounds unexpectedly. They seem normal (or they don't).

The family goes for a drive one day (Sept 5) and never come back. They head up a remote, but known, forest road in their city clothes.

An ex-RAF sees a fellow cyclist pass him. Shortly after, he comes across a terrible scene. He 'saves the life' of a young girl by having her lie down in the recovery position. He finds the body of the cyclist who passed him. He calls emergency personnel. He is brave.

LE comes to investigate. They take a very, very, very long time to investigate the scene. Fellow campers tell LE that there were two girls. The find the youngest child 8 hours after the family perished.

The ex-RAF says that he saw a dark 4X4 and a motorbike leave the area. He heard no shots. A local didn't hear any shots. A local saw the al Hilli family drive by. There was no one else following them.

Someone heard shots. No one heard shots.

Other witnesses saw a white vehicle racing away. LE says perhaps they were Martians.

The cyclist who was killed, was a local, who worked at a company who processed zirconium, which is used in fuel cladding for the nuclear industry. No one says much about this victim.

The perptrator(s) used one weapon...no two weapons....no one weapon.

The adult victims were all shot in the forehead. No they weren't. Yes they were. They all had one shot to the forehead. No, they all had two shots to the forehead.

There were 20-25 shots fired. No, there were 60. No, there were 25.

There were an unknown number of gunmen. There were two gunmen, with two different weapons. No, there was just one gunman.

The older woman who was killed in the al Hilli vehicle had a Swedish passport and an Iraqi passport...no just a Swedish passport. She was the grandmother, no, she was an unidentified woman who couldn't be identified by the passport. No, she was, in fact the maternal grandmother.

Saad al Hilli's brother was a 'control freak' who was in a dispute over the family inheritance. No, he was a nice guy. Even if there was a dispute, would he have taken out the family?

Saad's father was rich. He died in May. He disappeared six days before he was found dead. No, he was found in his apartment six days after he was last seen.

Saad had applied to work at CERN. No, he had a good career in the UK.

The bomb squad is called to the al Hilli home as suspicious 'stuff' was encountered. No, it's not all that suspicious afterall.

Do I pretty much have it all pinned down?

We will never know what happened. You can take that to the bank. All my latest opinion only, of course!

 

[wfgodot]

Considering the information is emanating from a law enforcement that was unable to find a living little four-year-old girl amidst the death-car carnage for eight hours, no, we may never know.

But I'll go out on a limb here, it costs me nothing. I see an arrest in the case by the weekend.

 

[fhc]

The Paris serial killer used same/similar weapon 16:43, or the sister is a control freak 16:43? lolol

I'll let your guess wfgodot, lol...

 

[wfgodot]

Here, incidentally, is a Telegraph link about the Paris assassin suspect and his - and another's - predilection for the 7.65, which seems quite the popular little weapon in France:

Suspected Paris serial killer arrested (15 April 2012)

Four people were shot dead in the space of five months in the Essonne area south of Paris, all with the same type of semi-automatic weapon by a gunman who fled on a motorbike, recalling the attacks of a scooter-driving Islamist extremist killed by police in southern France [in March] after murdering seven people.

Unlike the Mohamed Merah Toulouse killings, there is no suggestion of any political or religious motives in the shootings.
---
Police are now holding a 33-year old man known only as Yoni P. who they have described as a "very serious" suspect in relation to three of the four murders and are investigating whether he is linked to the fourth murder.

Each was committed with the same small-calibre 7.65mm gun in a six-mile radius of the southern outer suburbs.
---

 

[writer7]

7.65 mm's are also... drumroll please... manufactured and popular in Iraq. Check out the Tariq 7mm pistol.

And some Walthers were that calibre, at least early on, so James Bond could be the shooter as well

 

[JulieR]

Follow the money.........who is in line to collect if the family is gone.

 

[JulieR]

Just trying to catch up with all of the posters after the last 12 hours. Sorry for so many posts close together.

So what do we have so far?

British family with Iraqi ties takes vacation in France. According to reports they either always enjoy traveling in France, or they suddenly took off.

Saad is fine, or he is nervous. His neighbours are more than willing to share their observations with the media. They universally say that Saad, and the rest of family, are nice. Almost no one comments on the wife, Iqbal (or Ikbal), apparently a dentist).

Saad is working on a sensitive project, or he is working on a completely ordinary project, prior to their departure. Saad works in his own company in satellites and imaging, but in the past he worked in the nuclear business (or not!).

A neighbour volunteers that British Intelligence montored the family during the Iraq war. (The neighbour let them park in his driveway, yet talks about what a wonderful family they are.)


The family drives their vehicle, a BMW X5, and cross at Calais. They take a long time to get to the campground (or they don't). They switch campgrounds unexpectedly. They seem normal (or they don't).

The family goes for a drive one day (Sept 5) and never come back. They head up a remote, but known, forest road in their city clothes.

An ex-RAF sees a fellow cyclist pass him. Shortly after, he comes across a terrible scene. He 'saves the life' of a young girl by having her lie down in the recovery position. He finds the body of the cyclist who passed him. He calls emergency personnel. He is brave.

LE comes to investigate. They take a very, very, very long time to investigate the scene. Fellow campers tell LE that there were two girls. The find the youngest child 8 hours after the family perished.

The ex-RAF says that he saw a dark 4X4 and a motorbike leave the area. He heard no shots. A local didn't hear any shots. A local saw the al Hilli family drive by. There was no one else following them.

Someone heard shots. No one heard shots.

Other witnesses saw a white vehicle racing away. LE says perhaps they were Martians.

The cyclist who was killed, was a local, who worked at a company who processed zirconium, which is used in fuel cladding for the nuclear industry. No one says much about this victim.

The perptrator(s) used one weapon...no two weapons....no one weapon.

The adult victims were all shot in the forehead. No they weren't. Yes they were. They all had one shot to the forehead. No, they all had two shots to the forehead.

There were 20-25 shots fired. No, there were 60. No, there were 25.

There were an unknown number of gunmen. There were two gunmen, with two different weapons. No, there was just one gunman.

The older woman who was killed in the al Hilli vehicle had a Swedish passport and an Iraqi passport...no just a Swedish passport. She was the grandmother, no, she was an unidentified woman who couldn't be identified by the passport. No, she was, in fact the maternal grandmother.

Saad al Hilli's brother was a 'control freak' who was in a dispute over the family inheritance. No, he was a nice guy. Even if there was a dispute, would he have taken out the family?

Saad's father was rich. He died in May. He disappeared six days before he was found dead. No, he was found in his apartment six days after he was last seen.

Saad had applied to work at CERN. No, he had a good career in the UK.

The bomb squad is called to the al Hilli home as suspicious 'stuff' was encountered. No, it's not all that suspicious afterall.

Do I pretty much have it all pinned down?

We will never know what happened. You can take that to the bank. All my latest opinion only, of course!

Wow You really missed your calling...you should have been a reporter. Nice work...lol.

 

[rotterdam]

7.65 mm's are also... drumroll please... manufactured and popular in Iraq. Check out the Tariq 7mm pistol.

And some Walthers were that calibre, at least early on, so James Bond could be the shooter as well

Darn, I have one. P38 Walther, Nazi vintage. Also the Walther can be fairly easily converted to fully automatic.

 

[rotterdam]

By Victoria Ward, Henry Samuel and Martin Evans


A British man murdered with his wife and mother-in-law while on holiday in the French Alps was acting strangely in the days before his death, leaving his family alone several times each day before inexplicably switching campsites without notice, it emerged Monday.

Saad al-Hilli, 50, checked into the Village Camping Europa site in Saint-Jorioz on Saturday last week after making a “spontaneous reservation”.

He told fellow tourists that he and his family planned to stay for a week but then suddenly checked out on the following Monday, transferring to the Solitaire du Lac campsite, a few hundred yards down the road.

During their brief stay at the former site, Hilli is alleged to have driven off four or five times a day, leaving his 47-year-old wife Iqbal, his mother-in-law Suhaila al-Allaf, 74, and daughters Zainab, seven and Zeena, four, at the site.

Two Dutch tourists, Jan Janssen and his friend Anne-Marie Souderman, disclosed that they had spent two days camping close to the Hilli family at the Village Camping Europa site.

Janssen said: “We were told they planned to stay all week but they left suddenly after two days. The father left the site in his car alone four or five times each day. He went out for 20 or 30 minutes each time.

“The first time we thought he was going to the shops but it was very odd to go out so often.”

Although they did not see anyone visit the family they said they noticed an “unusual” man dressed in a smart jacket visiting the campsite at the time the Hillis were there. They said that he appeared “to come from the Balkans”.



Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Bri...ore+killings/7219863/story.html#ixzz266cpjA3b

Bidding war to highest bidder? Scratching my head though how you do identify somebody from the Balkans. May be a Slavic look?
Nowadays they are dispersed all over Europe especially in The Netherlands due to guest workers programs.Time for hip waders.

 

[rotterdam]

I have read mixed reports about the grandfather's (i.e. Saad's father, Kadhem or Kadhim) death in the Malaga area. Some articles imply that he was missing for six days, while others state that he was found in an apartment six days after he was last seen.

There's a big difference between these two scenarios.

Was there anything suspicious about his death?

Different accounts on media;Take your pick.
"Kadhim lived in a studio apartment in Mijas, close to Malaga, in the latter years of his life, having suffered from illness. Both brothers would visit several times a year. He died in August last year in a nursing home with Saad at his bedside."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ting-anguish-of-murdered-Britons-brother.html

 

[katydid23]

if it is true that the father left the camp alone 4 or 5 times a day, then that tells us that someone wanted the entire family taken out, not just the 'engineer.' Because he was alone many times. So I am not convinced it has anything to do with his work.

Where was he going whenever he drove away from the camp? I am wondering if he was looking for cell service.

I think he was there to meet with someone but he was being set up.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Wow, this case is getting crazier by the day!

I personally don't know how you could identify someone from the Balkans but I have heard people here in Germany describe people as looking like they are from the Balkans. Maybe they look Turkish or Greek, I don't know, but I've heard it before. I have been scolded to for saying people look "East European" because I guess it's too general and doesn't take into account how vast it was.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

The other strange thing is, if he knew or suspected he was being followed while at the campsite, changing campgrounds wasn't going to help, so why bother to do that? Could he have owed someone money and was trying to buy time to pay it? Seems strange he would leave the camp each day unless he was meeting someone. And they left their camper at the campground so it seems they were planning to come back, so where were they going on that lonely road that day, at that hour?

 

[rotterdam]

Wow, this case is getting crazier by the day!

I personally don't know how you could identify someone from the Balkans but I have heard people here in Germany describe people as looking like they are from the Balkans. Maybe they look Turkish or Greek, I don't know, but I've heard it before. I have been scolded to for saying people look "East European" because I guess it's too general and doesn't take into account how vast it was.

LOL, Rod Blagojevich, a crooked US politician now in jail, has a Balkan look to me.

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

LOL, Rod Blagojevich, a crooked US politician now in jail, has a Balkan look to me.

LOL, yes I know who he is! And yes, he does. Even the name....lol.

 

[kiwi50]

There are so many things I'd love to know, even things like did the wife drive?
Lots of things that people are finding suspicious I don't have a problem with.
The man who looked "Balkan" (whatever that means) wasn't he only seen at the camp not actually doin anything suspicious.

Even the husband going out 4-5 times a day, doesn't ring alarm bells, was there a shop at the camp to buy supplies, or as someone else suggested looking for cell phone coverage, as for moving to another camp, surely he'd go further than down the road if he was worried about being followed.

 

[rotterdam]

There are so many things I'd love to know, even things like did the wife drive?
Lots of things that people are finding suspicious I don't have a problem with.
The man who looked "Balkan" (whatever that means) wasn't he only seen at the camp not actually doin anything suspicious.

Even the husband going out 4-5 times a day, doesn't ring alarm bells, was there a shop at the camp to buy supplies, or as someone else suggested looking for cell phone coverage, as for moving to another camp, surely he'd go further than down the road if he was worried about being followed.

I agree. That is the nice thing about caravanning, to be able to get up and leave at short notice.
Those two Dutch characters must be related to Gladys Kravitz.

Now there is another gun type speculation based on the caliber used. This time a machine gun, so fully automatic.
"Police have said yesterday that only one gun was used in the attack. Experts believe it could be a Czech-made Skorpion vz.61 sub-machinegun issued to Soviet forces during the Cold War."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ch-alps-shooting/story-fnb64oi6-1226471709164

 

[sherlockh]

Blackmail. Somebody threatened to hurt the father and his family if he wouldn't give in, and carried out the threat. Money could be it, but somehow I think it had to do with his job or something from his past.

 

[Lola68]

Sorry if this theory has been posted already but could it have been a set-up? Father increasingly worried about family's safety, so arranges 'holiday' to France which is in fact an opportunity to get the family to Switzerland with mother-in-law. Arranges to meet at secluded spot to pick up e.g. fake passports for his wife and children (only 2 passports found in the car, one of which was the mother in law's) - might also explain why the whole family were in the car - but it turns out to be a set up (or rendez-vous plans were intercepted) and the family are killed.

Does anyone know what else the family had with them in the car? Travel bags, money etc?