France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[rotterdam]

Here is the house that Saad apparently owned in France in Dordogne area since the late nineties. Looks like quite a project. Needing tender loving care appears to be an understatement.:floorlaugh:
Explains why they stayed in the caravan and not staying in the house during their holiday.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2012/09/20/t...i-avait-une-maison-en-gironde-826583-3131.php

Could be one of the reasons why he traveled to France from time to time. To work on his project.
Local folks reported him working on it.

 

[Peace777]

Not sure if this helps in the investigation or not but the new story is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-ruined-property-400-miles-away-France.html
Plus I have been over to David Icke's website and agree with some of the posters there that say something just doesn't ring true in the British cyclist story, like how the little girl was roaming around for so long with a nasty head injury and being shot. Most pics I've seen have a pool of blood near the passenger side of the car so to me it looks like that's likely hers and that's where she laid till "he" supposedly found her. Msr. Mollier was on the far side as depicted in some photos. Police will have to look at timing and tracks as well as where bodies where found!! Does British cyclist's story fit what the evidence is?? Oh another point is where did the 1 missing part of the roof car rack go? Did someone break it off for some reason, had something been hidden in the hollow part if it was hollow? Questions, questions Hmmm

 

[Peace777]

call in the famous Belgian detective Msr. Hercule Poirot to get on this case He's my fav over Sherlock lol

 

[rotterdam]

Not sure if this helps in the investigation or not but the new story is http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-ruined-property-400-miles-away-France.html
Plus I have been over to David Icke's website and agree with some of the posters there that say something just doesn't ring true in the British cyclist story, like how the little girl was roaming around for so long with a nasty head injury and being shot. Most pics I've seen have a pool of blood near the passenger side of the car so to me it looks like that's likely hers and that's where she laid till "he" supposedly found her. Msr. Mollier was on the far side as depicted in some photos. Police will have to look at timing and tracks as well as where bodies where found!! Does British cyclist's story fit what the evidence is?? Oh another point is where did the 1 missing part of the roof car rack go? Did someone break it off for some reason, had something been hidden in the hollow part if it was hollow? Questions, questions Hmmm

Many questions indeed. Mr Mollier could have tried to do the same thing as Mr.Martin. Coming to the aid of the 7 year old and was shot while doing so.
Hence his close proximity to the car. I also think that the Al-Hilli car was blocked by another car just prior to the shooting and could only go backwards while trying to escape. Possibly that car was still there, making it look more like an accident to Mr Mollier.
Interesting though that Saad was trying to sell that dilapidated property. Another indication that he possibly needed cash money.
The 7 year old is a very important key. Doubt if we will ever find out though what has been revealed so far..
New crucial info has practically died down since the last several days. Just new fairly insignificant tidbits and tabloid/blogs wild speculations. Some quite outlandish.

 

[rotterdam]

call in the famous Belgian detective Msr. Hercule Poirot to get on this case He's my fav over Sherlock lol

I like Poirot too. Especially the carefully crafted scenes for that time era. Those British mystery shows are fab. to watch on PBS.
And you can not skip one minute of it like American mystery shows or you lose the story's thread.
The devil is always in the details

 

[Snoopster]

From google tranlation:

Saad does not drink. He did not attend the mosque either, but says the believer. A Claygate, it is mainly perceived as a hobby and engineering mechanics. It is a builder at heart. It never stops, breaks ceilings, redone electricity from the family home, when it does not install a wooden garden shed equipped with air conditioning. During his holidays, he would have spruced up a house in France, a large stone farmhouse. There would have gone often for roofing.

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Saad-Al-Hilli.-Un-pere-pas-si-tranquille-432993/

The article (which doesn't refer to sources very often) says that as a young man SAH took long bike rides. (so he was a cyclist too?) It also mentions that he liked the idea of having a caravan, as he could have the freedom to travel with his house. Apparently he didn't travel all that often though and he always took his computer.

BTW, who puts air conditioning in their garden shed? ....particularly in England?

 

[rotterdam]

From google tranlation:



http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Saad-Al-Hilli.-Un-pere-pas-si-tranquille-432993/

The article (which doesn't refer to sources very often) says that as a young man SAH took long bike rides. (so he was a cyclist too?) It also mentions that he liked the idea of having a caravan, as he could have the freedom to travel with his house. Apparently he didn't travel all that often though and he always took his computer.

BTW, who puts air conditioning in their garden shed? ....particularly in England?

If I recall, he had computers in his garden shed too, may be other electronics. They do not like hot/humid weather .
Besides engineers love to over engineer. Was married to one once.:blushing:
He put a/c in our daughter's playhouse. I do not recall it ever being turned on.

 

[Skigh]

Until now, French detectives assumed that Mr Al-Hilli’s 1 million pounds plus family home in Clayton, Surrey, was their sole residence.

The paper adds: ‘On a number of occasions he turned up to rebuild the floor and roof, before leaving the area without returning.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-


I thought it was reported at the beginning of the case that SAH had a property in France.
We were discussing why the family did not stay there instead of at a campsite.
Did SAH's father also own a property in France?


I wonder if the police have searched the house-it would be a good place to hide items-under the floor or in the roof!!

 

[Clio]

Until now, French detectives assumed that Mr Al-Hilli’s 1 million pounds plus family home in Clayton, Surrey, was their sole residence.

The paper adds: ‘On a number of occasions he turned up to rebuild the floor and roof, before leaving the area without returning.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-


I thought it was reported at the beginning of the case that SAH had a property in France.
We were discussing why the family did not stay there instead of at a campsite.
Did SAH's father also own a property in France?


I wonder if the police have searched the house-it would be a good place to hide items-under the floor or in the roof!!

Your link doesn't work for me but I found a couple of others that did. Yes there were rumours about SAH owning a place in France from quite early on in the case.

Looking at the second photo of the house in the link below, I quess we know now why they didn't stay there. It doesn't look very habitable to me.

...it is today little more than an overgrown ruin
...
Sud Ouest says the house has never been occupied, and is practically in the same state as when he left.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-ruined-property-400-miles-away-France.html

And from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-British-victim-was-selling-second-home.html

The British engineer murdered at an isolated Alpine beauty spot was on the verge of selling a ruined property 400 miles away across France

Interesting comment in both the DM & Telegraph links

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.

 

[Clio]

A few french papers talking about this today

A joint team to investigate Franco-British intended to remove legal burdens slowing down investigations on the killing of Horses (Haute-Savoie) should be created Annecy on Friday under the auspices of the European judicial cooperation agency Eurojust
.....
joint investigation team (JIT) should be led by two French investigating judges in charge of the case and prosecutors made ​​the UK Crown Prosecution Service, police investigators Surrey County police and the research section of Chambéry. This structure will allow smooth legal difficulties posed by differences in culture between the two countries. "There is a clash of legal cultures which makes things extremely slow", explained the prosecutor Eric Maillaud Annecy

Google translation from http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-dive...641.php?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Skigh]

Your link doesn't work for me but I found a couple of others that did. Yes there were rumours about SAH owning a place in France from quite early on in the case.

Looking at the second photo of the house in the link below, I quess we know now why they didn't stay there. It doesn't look very habitable to me.


Sorry link did not work.

Interesting comment about the guns.

The story re the guns keeps changing so I do not think we are being given the true information.
I would think ballistic experts would have been able to tell very quickly which type of gun was used and from where the shots were fired and the injuries the victims received whether more than one gun was used.


The police I would have thought will have by now been able to track the Al-hilli's journey from England to France and tell whether they did visit the French property on their journey.

The french property does seem a strange property to buy in the first place.

 

[Clio]

From google tranlation:

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Saad-Al-Hilli.-Un-pere-pas-si-tranquille-432993/

The article (which doesn't refer to sources very often) says that as a young man SAH took long bike rides. (so he was a cyclist too?) It also mentions that he liked the idea of having a caravan, as he could have the freedom to travel with his house. Apparently he didn't travel all that often though and he always took his computer.

BTW, who puts air conditioning in their garden shed? ....particularly in England?

Found an interesting bit in an early report from leMessager which claims that BM and SM were both cyclists and that they knew each other :what:

The British who made ​​the gruesome discovery was doubled by another cyclist, it is the fourth victim of the killing
.....
two cyclists, one whose body was found near the car and the one who discovered the crime scene, knew each other, both being laid off bike club Ugine Savoie

Google translation from http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml

 

[Skigh]

Found an interesting bit in an early report from leMessager which claims that BM and SM were both cyclists and that they knew each other :what:



Google translation from http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml

I had read before that BM and SM knew each other.

I would have thought they would have acknowledged each other as SM passed BM on their cycle ride . BM would be very shocked to see some one he knew and had just passed lying dead with multiple bullet wounds.

We only have BM's story that SM did actually pass him.

To have joined the cycle club BM must have spent a reasonable amount of time in France-I do not think he would bother if he only spent a few weeks a year there.

I wonder if the Martins had a property there before they bought the place to rent.

 

[Clio]

Sorry link did not work.

Not to worry. I thought maybe it might have been leaked info and the press report had been removed.

Interesting comment about the guns.

The story re the guns keeps changing so I do not think we are being given the true information.
I would think ballistic experts would have been able to tell very quickly which type of gun was used and from where the shots were fired and the injuries the victims received whether more than one gun was used.

The story about the guns "seems" to change because the media picks up snippets of information and then spins a possible story around the new info.

From the get go the french prosecutor said they suspected more that one killer. This would tie in with the french prosecutor saying that Zeena had said "she couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys" i.e. bad guys plural

When it was reported that Zainab had seen only one bad man, the press reports moved to favour a single shooter. I think I said at the time, she may have only seen one "bad" person but that doesn't necessarily rule out that there were others.

In terms of the gun(s) used, AFAIK all that the prosecutor has said is that the calibre of the bullets is 7.65. The media have speculated about 3 or 4 different possible weapons and what the use of various weapons may mean.

Anyway, the public and the press don't really know how many shooters there were or what weapons were used but as you say, it's to be assumed that the authorities do know those things and a lot more besides. Well I hope so anyway.

 

[rotterdam]

Found an interesting bit in an early report from leMessager which claims that BM and SM were both cyclists and that they knew each other :what:



Google translation from http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml

I read that too but like so many other tidbits, found that hard to believe though.
BM surely would have told the gendarmes that he knew Mr Mollier and gave them his name.. Instead, he was identified via his partner by going to the police with photograph after several hours..

 

[Skigh]

I read that too but like so many other tidbits, found that hard to believe though.
BM surely would have told the gendarmes that he knew Mr Mollier and gave them his name.. Instead, he was identified via his partner by going to the police with photograph after several hours..

That is a good point about BM identifying SM if they did know each other.

I still think it is strange SM's wife taking a photo to the police and reporting him missing so quickly.

 

[Skigh]

Not to worry. I thought maybe it might have been leaked info and the press report had been removed.



The story about the guns "seems" to change because the media picks up snippets of information and then spins a possible story around the new info.

From the get go the french prosecutor said they suspected more that one killer. This would tie in with the french prosecutor saying that Zeena had said "she couldn't tell the good guys from the bad guys" i.e. bad guys plural

When it was reported that Zainab had seen only one bad man, the press reports moved to favour a single shooter. I think I said at the time, she may have only seen one "bad" person but that doesn't necessarily rule out that there were others.

In terms of the gun(s) used, AFAIK all that the prosecutor has said is that the calibre of the bullets is 7.65. The media have speculated about 3 or 4 different possible weapons and what the use of various weapons may mean.

Anyway, the public and the press don't really know how many shooters there were or what weapons were used but as you say, it's to be assumed that the authorities do know those things and a lot more besides. Well I hope so anyway.

It is interesting the reports of what the girls saw differs.

At what stage did Zeena hide or was hidden -how much would she have seen.

I still find it hard to think of a reason why Zainab was out of the car ,with the doors locked and the engine running.

With the injuries she received I thought she would have been knocked out cold.
It seems strange BH saw he stumbling around then had lost consciousness just as he approached her.Had she not lost consciousness at that time she might have been able to mention her sister was in the car before she passed out.

 

[rotterdam]

From google tranlation:



http://www.parismatch.com/Actu-Match/Societe/Actu/Saad-Al-Hilli.-Un-pere-pas-si-tranquille-432993/

The article (which doesn't refer to sources very often) says that as a young man SAH took long bike rides. (so he was a cyclist too?) It also mentions that he liked the idea of having a caravan, as he could have the freedom to travel with his house. Apparently he didn't travel all that often though and he always took his computer.

BTW, who puts air conditioning in their garden shed? ....particularly in England?

There was another tidbit in that quoted article that was interesting. Almost all articles refer to Saad's dad as going to live in Spain after Saad's mother died ( in 2001). This article states they were separated prior to her death and the reason for him moving to Spain.
Some articles ago it was stated that Saad's mom left the house to the two brothers upon her death in 2001. And I was always scratching my head why the dad was left out, however if they were already separated and he had been living elsewhere, that makes more sense.. Anyway, that will apparently did not create a feud between the two bros.

From article (Google translation , not mine)
"This beautiful building is home to his family. Saad is first lived with his mother and brother Zaid. His parents separated a long time ago, his father went to live in Spain".

 

[Skigh]

There was another tidbit in that quoted article that was interesting. Almost all articles refer to Saad's dad as going to live in Spain after Saad's mother died ( in 2001). This article states they were separated prior to her death and the reason for him moving to Spain.
Some articles ago it was stated that Saad's mom left the house to the two brothers upon her death in 2001. And I was always scratching my head why the dad was left out, however if they were already separated and he had been living elsewhere, that makes more sense.. Anyway, that will apparently did not create a feud between the two bros.

From article (Google translation , not mine)
"This beautiful building is home to his family. Saad is first lived with his mother and brother Zaid. His parents separated a long time ago, his father went to live in Spain".

This is interesting .I did wonder why the Father was living in Spain.

So the house must have been in the mother's name in order for her to be able to will it to the two sons.

I can not see that dividing the property equally should create a feud.
I wonder why Zaid was living there ,he was married ( I understand his wife died around 10 years ago)with a son so would have had his own property.

 

[Skigh]

ACTUALITÉ Société RSS
Tuerie de Chevaline : la création d’une équipe d’enquête franco-britannique envisagée
Le Point.fr – Publié le 21/09/2012 à 09:53 – Modifié le 21/09/2012 à 11:30
Le dispositif doit permettre de lisser les difficultés juridiques posées par les différences de culture entre les deux pays

Une équipe commune d’enquête franco-britannique destinée à lever les lourdeurs juridiques ralentissant les investigations sur la tuerie de Chevaline (Haute-Savoie) devrait être créée vendredi à Annecy sous l’égide de l’agence européenne de coopération judiciaire Eurojust, a indiqué le parquet d’Annecy. Cette équipe commune d’enquête (ECE) doit voir le jour vendredi soir, au terme d’une réunion entamée jeudi midi. Elle devrait être dirigée par les deux juges d’instruction français en charge de l’affaire et composée de procureurs britanniques du Crown Prosecution Service, des enquêteurs de la police du comté de Surrey et des gendarmes de la section de recherche de Chambéry.

La création d’une ECE va permettre de lisser les difficultés juridiques posées par les différences de culture existant entre les deux pays. “Il y a un choc de cultures juridiques qui rend les choses extrêmement lentes”, a ainsi expliqué le procureur de la République d’Annecy, Éric Maillaud. Depuis le début de l’enquête de Chevaline, plusieurs commissions rogatoires internationales adressées par les juges d’instruction français ont ainsi été refusées par le ministère de l’Intérieur britannique (Home Office), car elles n’étaient pas suffisamment motivées au vu du droit pénal anglais.

Dans le cadre de l’ECE, les commissions rogatoires internationales deviendront inutiles. Le travail d’enquête se fera “comme si on était dans un seul pays, d’enquêteur à enquêteur ou de juge à enquêteur”, selon Éric Maillaud. “Cela évite de passer des heures, voire des journées entières, à rédiger”, a-t-il expliqué. Créées par une convention européenne du 29 mai 2000, les ECE permettent d’échanger des renseignements, de mener des opérations d’investigations conjointes et de coordonner l’exercice des poursuites pénales.’

Note that it is reported The UK Home Office has refused to reply to several international ‘commissions rogatoires’ addresed to them by the French investigating judges on a technicality.


Why would the UK not reply if this is a joint investigation.