France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, Lake Annecy 5 September 2012 #1

[~n/t~]

Looks like a broken roof rack for bikes. (Is that what you mean?)


ETA Does look like there has been some serious impact there though, actually...

Yes. Looks like a bike rack. It's very rare here. We usually see the trunk racks.

 

[Clio]

Apologies if already posted

From the Independent (snipped)

"Examination of bullets found in the bodies, including two in the head of each victim and five in the cyclist’s back, has allowed ballistic experts to establish a tentative order of events. They believe that Saad al-Hilli, 50, a British-Iraqi aeronautical engineer, was the first to be shot behind the wheel of his wine-coloured BMW estate car.

The gunman then shot the two women on the back-seat of the car, Mr al-Hilli’s wife, Iqbal, 47, and her 77-year-old Swedish-Iraqi mother. The last person to die was Mr Mollier, reinforcing the view that he was murdered because he stumbled on the scene of the massacre. The gun would have to be re-loaded at least once."

I saw that and thought how would they be able to detemine who was shot in which order? I don't know a lot about ballistics but it seemed a bit of an assumption to me. Happy to stand corrected if others have more knowledge...

 

[~n/t~]

This site has some really interesting points amongst the conspiracy theories, and some I hadn't considered before, such as:

- Apparent time between ex-RAF man being overtaken by Mollier (5 mins) and the former arriving at the scene would put him very close to the scene at the time of the shooting - so he would have heard something
- Looks as though there was a bike on top of the roof of the BMW that was ripped off (?)
- The only testimony we have at the moment is the ex-RAF 'cyclist' (if he did in fact arrive on bike)
- Very little blood in the car given the head wounds - possibility that they were shot outside of the car execution style?

And another thought that's been bugging me - how did the ex-RAF man turn off the engine if the doors were locked - would he have been able to reach through the window (given that police wouldn't touch them for fear of disturbing ballistics evidence) without breaking the glass? Maybe the engine wasn't on at all (expecially if they'd been in the lay by for 1 hour). Maybe they had all been dead for 1 hour when the ex-RAF man 'arrived on the scene'. Time of death will be interesting in view of current testimony and when emergency call made to police (and whether it was to French police or UK police - I holiday in France every year but don't know the emergency numbers off the top of my head)

Don't you/they have a 911 version of an emergency number?

 

[graceholl]

Don't you/they have a 911 version of an emergency number?

I think it is 112...

 

[~n/t~]

I saw that and thought how would they be able to detemine who was shot in which order? I don't know a lot about ballistics but it seemed a bit of an assumption to me. Happy to stand corrected if others have more knowledge...

IMO, I think they examine the crime scene, the weapon used, the bullets, etc.

Good ballistic experts can also tell from what distance the shot was fired.

They then present their theory.

 

[Lola68]

Ok seems I was wrong about the hour spent in the layby and not knowing the emergency number in France as it appears it wasn't the ex-RAF man who called the police, but a passing French family.

I stand corrected - thanks all!

 

[Clio]

IMO, I think they examine the crime scene, the weapon used, the bullets, etc.

Good ballistic experts can also tell from what distance the shot was fired.

They then present their theory.

True and I know that they can determine distance, trajectories etc. But the order in which the shots were fired?

IMHO "theory" is a good word but I accept I may be being sceptical

 

[rotterdam]

True and I know that they can determine distance, trajectories etc. But the order in which the shots were fired?

IMHO "theory" is a good word but I accept I may be being sceptical

I am mulling about that too and wonder what kind of science they used for that.
If they are that good, why no mention of when the 7 year old was shot.

 

[Clio]

- The location of the car: seemingly parked in a lay by - was this lay by up in the mountains, or heading away from the campsite into a city/town nearby?

I have seen/heard conflicting reports about the road they were on. It seems the lay-by is on road going away from campsite/town heading up into the mountains. Some reports say the road narrows to a cycle/hiking track after the lay-by. However, Mark Williams Thomas (cough) said on his 5 Live radio interview that if you go round the corner from the lay-by and continue up the hill there is a 20 mile track that is quite suitable for a vehicle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLgnAaM9Ws&feature=youtu.be

 

[ScotsPaddy]

If as someone else said that the road carried on and there was other tracks then i think a green 4x4 or/and a motorbike may have that as an escape route,i doubt it was a loan shooter...

As for lack of blood,if youre in youre car and see someone approach with a gun youre going to duck,so guessing the shots would have been close and downward-ish the blood would pool in the footwell,also getting shot in the head doesnt mean the heads going to blow apart and spray blood and brain matter everywhere..
Remember the american politician who shot himself in the head with a .44 on camera?,that was at point blank range with a big handgun,a bullet needs time to build up momentum and velocity when it leaves the barrel,so if the shots were very close i doubt the bullets were up to full impact power.
And the type of gun theyre saying was used,just my opinion but it doesnt look like the sort of gun a pro would have used,looks more like a cheap eastern european gun..

Certainly looks like a roof rack on the car,broken maybe,or maybe brackets or one of those roof box thingymabobs.

 

[Snoopster]

You would think that if witness cyclist was MI5 or similar and was shadowing shot cyclist that he would be armed himself..

Perhaps he was. He could have had a small backpack.

BTW, did anyone ever report seeing either cyclist ride by? Do we know for sure when he rode up there, or is our only source the ex-RAF guy?

Is there cell phone coverage in the spot where the family was found?

ETA: sorry, I'm always slow to catch up at this time of day. I see a subsequent post to the one I linked here, which mentions the revised story about the RAF guy and him coming down the road. This implies that there either wasn't cell coverage or he had no cell. I might have to revise my "simple" tale of the killings as told by the media over time. We've already had changes to how the grandfather died and who called emergency services.

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Perhaps he was. He could have had a small backpack.

BTW, did anyone ever report seeing either cyclist ride by? Do we know for sure when he rode up there, or is our only source the ex-RAF guy?

Is there cell phone coverage in the spot where the family was found?

I believe the person that called emergency services had to come back down the road to get a reception..

Id like to know if the builder who witnessed the family heading up to the layby noticed the bikes,suppose the cyclists would have been much quieter passing the builder?.

And was it mountain bikes the witness and shot cyclists were on or road bike(racers).

 

[laurauk1]

The neighbours not knowing they were going away thing, I don't find that odd. I wouldn't necessarily know when or where my neighbours were off to on holiday and I have sometimes decided at the last minute to take a trip somewhere.

Again, the bags in the car is something I don't think indicates anything sinister. The caravan is likely to be cramped so maybe they just left bits and bobs in there.

As for leaving the original campsite, as someone else said its the beauty of camping being able to change your plans or perhaps the original campsite didn't suit them or their needs.

 

[sherlockh]

RAF guy saved the 7-year old girl's life. I think he is a hero. Also, he said he saw the 4x4 car and the motorbike speeding towards the crime scene where he came along just minutes later. So the family might have been lured there, but it doesn't seem they were killed during a meeting with the killer. Seems more like an ambush to me.

 

[laurauk1]

Could the reports on who was shot first be based on what the 4 year old said. It may bethat she said something as simple as 'they hurt daddy first then mummy'. Sorry if I missed the report that says it was ballistic experts who determined this. I'm catching up while at work.

 

[rotterdam]

Could the reports on who was shot first be based on what the 4 year old said. It may bethat she said something as simple as 'they hurt daddy first then mummy'. Sorry if I missed the report that says it was ballistic experts who determined this. I'm catching up while at work.

Well, it could also come from the 7 year old since she is talking apparently.

 

[graceholl]

Well, it could also come from the 7 year old since she is talking apparently.

True but I think LE would use more than the statements of two very young girls in piecing together the order of those assassinated - especially given the level of trauma to 7yo/fact 4yo was hiding. I'm sure there is some way that they can establish an idea of who was shot first through some kind of forensic means. And the fact it's being reported Saad was killed first is unsurprising - wipe out the alpha male, then the next most able bodied, and finally children.

 

[~n/t~]

I am mulling about that too and wonder what kind of science they used for that.
If they are that good, why no mention of when the 7 year old was shot.

IMO, it's because the 7 year old wasn't inside the vehicle. I always believed she was struck by a stray bullet but will wait to see if other experts come forward.

I'm sure there will be many as with any case. They all have a theory and then it comes down to who to believe and what makes more sense.

:moo:

 

[~n/t~]

Well, it could also come from the 7 year old since she is talking apparently.

Just a guess but I don't think they would have gone that far yet with their questioning of this little girl. IMO, they're taking it very slow and perhaps the first set of questions is just confirming who the occupants were, why they were where they were, etc.

Of course, the child may have volunteered more information. IDK

So sad for these children.

 

[Waddles]

Don't you/they have a 911 version of an emergency number?

yes we do, everyone I know knows it, kids know it, we're reminded of it regularly