GA - Former President Donald Trump indicted, 10 counts in 2020 election interference, violation of RICO Act, 14 Aug 2023 #2

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  • #681
  • #682
JMO I don't understand how a Newsweek poll of a random selection of Democratic voters has any reflection whatsoever on what the actual outcome of this trial will be. Especially since the people being polled don't have access to evidence that will be available at trial. Just random people by all accounts.
You're spot on. The idea that the justice system - that a criminal trial - should in some way be conducted under influence of polling is patently absurd. Those espousing such an argument let themselves down; they look to divert attention away from the facts - and away from the evidence - in order to obfuscate. 'Flooding the zone' (with waste) is how Steve Bannon puts it. We see it for the cynical ploy it is.

JMO.
 
  • #683
  • #684
I've seen polling to suggest the majority of respondents believe Trump did indeed break the law too - without being presented evidence - which I think at least lends itself to the possibility of a conviction.

But, for argument's sake, let's say that the Georgia indictment is politically motivated:

- It would require a vast collaboration of elected officials, sworn investigators, multiple prosecutors, the district attorney, judges, dozens of jurors across two grand juries and also closely resembles the J6 indictment because it was a multi-state sprawling conspiracy to overturn the election by any means possible. But we're going to ignore that to get to this...

Even IF the Georgia indictment is a political hit job - IT DOES NOT MATTER - at least in terms of prosecuting the defendants. The evidence is either there to support a conviction or it is not. I'd remind folks though that republicans screaming that it's political are spouting rhetoric and not an actual legal defense. I believe that the only time you're going to hear Trump et al's attorneys mention even the possibility of being a politically motivated prosecution is the opening and closing arguments because there.is.no.evidence. that can be factually submitted to the court to suggest that this is political persecution - so the jurors may well not even hear evidence to support that theory. Trump's team has tried for months to get Willis disqualified, to end the investigation and, when those measures failed, to exclude the Special Grand Jury's report. I'd also argue that the Georgia state legislature decided to change the law to oust prosecutors because the judicial branch wasn't helping their cause so they instead wrote a law that - while reads reasonably - could easily be manipulated to achieve their own goals.

As a society, we grant prosecutors - whether appointed or elected - extraordinary power to choose which cases to prosecute based on a variety of circumstances - including the likelihood of a conviction and the cost of pursuing one - there are many, many variables and considerations. I think it borrows trouble when the legislative branch uses its power to interfere in the judicial branch which is why separation of powers exists in the first place.

But at the end of Trump's trial it will simply come down to the evidence either being there or not. All JMO
 
  • #685
Tomorrow (Monday), Mark Meadows' request to move his case from state to federal court will be heard. Will be interesting, imo!

"Many involved in the case are unclear what the ramifications would be if Meadows' case is moved to federal court, the sources said, and whether it would bring along all 19 defendants or leave their cases in state court.

'It is completely untested,' one attorney for a defendant in the case told ABC News." bbm


My prediction is the case will remain in Georgia state court, but we'll see! I wonder how long it will take for the judge to make a decision.

jmo
 
  • #686
Lol.

It's good to have a positive body image I suppose...

1693134392731.jpeg
 
  • #687
But at the end of Trump's trial it will simply come down to the evidence either being there or not. All JMO
snipped

Right on.

The whole "my guy is even more popular" after being charged with multiple felonies is a weird brag.

jmo
 
  • #688
My prediction is the case will remain in Georgia state court, but we'll see! I wonder how long it will take for the judge to make a decision.

jmo
RSBM

I'm going on the record to agree though I still believe Meadows has the best chance of success of all the defendants. He'll have to prove to the judge that the indicted actions were necessary and proper to his official duties which I think is going to be difficult to do especially considering the office of the president has no authority or role in how states count or certify their votes.

JMO
 
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  • #689
RSBM

I'm going on the record to agree though I still believe Meadows has the best chance of success of all the defendants. He'll have to prove to the judge that the indicted actions were necessary and proper to his official duties which I think is going to be difficult to do especially considering the office of the president has no authority or role in how state's count or certify their votes.

JMO
Exactly what I'm thinking. He was in a federal position, but elections fall under state. He's making a tricky argument and let's see what he's got.

jmo
 
  • #690
...

Even IF the Georgia indictment is a political hit job - IT DOES NOT MATTER - at least in terms of prosecuting the defendants. The evidence is either there to support a conviction or it is not. I'd remind folks though that republicans screaming that it's political are spouting rhetoric and not an actual legal defense. I believe that the only time you're going to hear Trump et al's attorneys mention even the possibility of being a politically motivated prosecution is the opening and closing arguments because there.is.no.evidence. that can be factually submitted to the court to suggest that this is political persecution - so the jurors may well not even hear evidence to support that theory. Trump's team has tried for months to get Willis disqualified, to end the investigation and, when those measures failed, to exclude the Special Grand Jury's report. I'd also argue that the Georgia state legislature decided to change the law to oust prosecutors because the judicial branch wasn't helping their cause so they instead wrote a law that - while reads reasonably - could easily be manipulated to achieve their own goals.

...

But at the end of Trump's trial it will simply come down to the evidence either being there or not. All JMO
Excellent post.

There is a lot of rhetoric happening to blame it all on politics and yet I am certain that there must have been some Republicans and Independents on the Georgia Special Grand Jury who suggested possible charges and within the Georgia Grand Jury who handed down the indictment too. It goes to show that "evidence" matters and that Jurors are capable of rendering decisions not based on their political beliefs.

The sad fact is that those nations who fail to hold their politicans to account for crimes/refuse to prosecute politicans for crimes are the very ones that are or that go on to become "Banana Republics" (witness the 'projecting' currently happening once again from the accused's camp). I think the Founders were wise to hold that no man is above the law; that seems to be important these days especially due to the politiking attempts being undertaken to see accountbility avoided for those involved in this Indictment.

On your point as to the Georgia State Legisature and their recent change to the law, I'm just going to offer up that I believe this change came about, perhaps in part about Trump, but also due to the Florida incident whereby a DA flat out stated that she was not going to prosecute certain crimes within that state: ie: "failing to do her job". I point out too that the Georgia Law specificly notes that as a criteria for removal. I am a firm believer in Law & Justice. There are many Laws that I might not agree with, but I don't get to pick and choose which ones I comply with or disregard without consequences (I pay my speeding tickets etc when I break those Laws). Nor should a prosecutor be able to "just decide" which laws they will or wll not prosecute - they have to base those decisions on the evidence and facts at hand while considering what the Law says - that is what keeps the Justice Branch seperate from the Politics.

Willis and the Florida individual are not comparable. One has shown probable cause, obtained a Special Grand Jury recommendation and had a Grand Jury hand down an indictment for acts in contrary to the Indictment's quoted Criminal laws. Those Defendants are now charged and will have their day in court. The one in Florida was willing to forego all evidence despite the law (and even though I personally agree with her views on that law).

Don't get me wrong as I don't like every Law on the books either but I don't pick and choose who should be held to them or which ones to enforce. Politicians decide what the Laws are and if Voters have an issue with the Laws, as written, then they need to vote the bums out or use the appeal system to their advantage if convicted.
 
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  • #691
RSBM

I'm going on the record to agree though I still believe Meadows has the best chance of success of all the defendants. He'll have to prove to the judge that the indicted actions were necessary and proper to his official duties which I think is going to be difficult to do especially considering the office of the president has no authority or role in how states count or certify their votes.

JMO
Or his offer up of Campaign Money ... and I think that's the bit that's going to ultimately bite him on this request.
 
  • #692
This lawyer ("Lee Kovarsky is the Bryant Smith Chair in Law at the University of Texas, where he also co-directs the school's Capital Punishment Center. He has litigated Texas death penalty cases for almost twenty years") doesn't think that removing Meadow's case to federal court would be much different anyway.
Not that he sees that happening because Meadow's case has drawn a judge who is "likely to press the case forward".

If heard in the Federal Court in Georgia, the jury will be a similar demographic, the charges will still be violation of Georgia's RICO act and be tried under Georgia's laws.

The only thing would be the time factor, as it takes time to move a case to another court and get it on the schedule.



In the end, there might be less at stake to removal than many believe. The Fulton County and Atlanta Division jury pools aren’t that different, plus Trump and his co-defendants drew a federal judge who is likely to press the case forward. Still, the defendants’ removal arguments are not especially good, relying in at least some measure on a court’s willingness to indulge the fiction that Trump and his co-defendants were engaged in a coordinated election interference to protect the public interests of the United States—rather than to promote the private interests of Donald Trump. If the case does find its way into federal court, it won’t be because the defendants’ arguments on their underlying defenses are strong; it will be because courts are exercising the utmost caution.
Removal in the Georgia Prosecution: A Low Bar but Weak Arguments
 
  • #693
  • #694
I’ll ‘weigh’ in with my 2 cents.

All those people in the comparison pictures are very muscular. Muscle has more density than fat so it weighs more (by volume). moo

You're right, of course, but there's still no way DJT is 215 pounds.
 
  • #695
The GA legislature created the Prosecuting Attorneys Qualification Commission and Kemp signed it into law months before Trump was indicted. The Judicial branch had nothing to do with it as far as I can tell.


JMO

And that's PRECISELY the problem! JMO
 
  • #696

Court documents were obtained scheduling a hearing in Fulton County Superior Court for all 19 defendants, including former President Donald Trump, on Thursday, Aug. 31.

It is unclear what type of hearing is on the court docket.

There is no word on if any of the defendants will be required to appear in person for the hearing.

Could it be about this - or one item they may talk about?


JUDGE MCAFEE, MOTIONS CALENDAR
8/31/2023, SUPERIOR COURT CRIMINAL DIVISION COURTROOM 5A


Tomorrow (Monday), Mark Meadows' request to move his case from state to federal court will be heard. Will be interesting, imo!

"snipped...

jmo

Is there a time when this will start? TIA! :)
 
  • #697
  • #698
ter. There's a reason we have THREE branches of government. If these politicians can't acknowledge, respect, and act within the parameters of that very simple 3rd-grade Civics class fact, then maybe they're the ones who should be removed from their jobs. B
they have to base those decisions on the evidence and facts at hand while considering what the Law says - that is what keeps the Justice Branch seperate from the Politics.

Truly.

It’s amazing to me that we have been going in circles about this.

The Founders created a new form of government after they rose up against being led by a king of England.

Separation of church and state and three branches of government to provide checks and balances. NO BRANCH CAN TREAD ON THE OTHER.

This is the VERY VERY FOUNDATION of the United States of America.

Nothing can throttle democracy as much as what we are now enduring— a member/former member of the Executive branch attempting by multiple means to overthrow the Judicial branch’s rulings of law ——that the election was NOT rigged.

Free speech, yes. Trump can complain all day every day but he did what he CANNOT do, which is threaten, strong arm, and attempt manifold concrete actions (like wanting to seize election machines) so that he can be the president for eternity.

IMO our standing in the world has plummeted among both our allies and enemies as they witness a president attempting to shred the very Constitution he swore to uphold.

IMO
 
  • #699
Is there a time when this will start? TIA! :)

Meadows removal hearing is due to start at 10amEST tomorrow. 15:00BST and midnight AEST (sheesh I thought I had it bad being 5 hours ahead - you guys are dedicated).

17:00 for you, Niner. :)

(All based on googling so blame them if I'm wrong.)
 
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  • #700
....
Meadows removal hearing is due to start at 10amEST tomorrow. 15:00BST and midnight for our friends in Oz (sheesh I thought I had it bad being 5 hours ahead - you guys are dedicated).

17:00 for you, Niner. :)

(All based on googling so blame them if I'm wrong.)

Thanks a bunch! :) Much appreciated...
 
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