GA GA - Shirley, 87, & Russell Dermond, 88, Putnam County, 2 May 2014 - #12

[Lawdawg99]

Definitley would solve this if we had the Why .

I keep thinking, nothing that is being discussed fits and what isnt being discussed may be the answer but not many want to go there

BUT, as Levi mentioned, there is a lawsuit that someone found so theyll be following up on that.

Maybe it'll lead to something and if nothing ELSE, atleast ELIMINATE it so we can then focus elsewhere

SS says he is still withholding information so one little piece can prevent us from knowing or speculating further on what we think. One little piece could solve it too

Exactly!

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

I certainly think they achieved what they came to do.

YES! For real.

 

[fred&edna]

Beheading even after death still involves blood... but none tracked in garage nor around the home? The killers wore head to toe plastic? If not, then did they wash any bloody hands, weapons, tools in the house? In boat ramp restroom? Just rinsed off in the lake?

Originally, I thought RD's head was taken to send a message (didn't have a theory as to recipient of msg - just assumed someone close to the Dermonds). Then, after learning of gunshot residue on RD's shirt collar area... And hearing SS's theory (as well as other posters here) I decided... Well, okay it must have been to hide evidence.

Heck, maybe the head was removed for both reasons. ?? I just can't decide.

And where do we think SD was at the time of RDs decapitation? In the house? In the boat? Surely not in the garage, right? Does this even matter?

I was reading through old threads and it seems SS was searching for a crowbar or crowbar-like tool. Did family ever state one was missing from garage?

Even if the murders relate back to son/drug deals... I don't think it would be this "clean", and I believe items of value would be taken from the home.

For me, none of the evidence (we have at this time) points to anyone other than someone close to the Dermonds.

 

[Valiant]

Why assume they had to go into the lake at a boat dock?
What if they used a boat that was already on the lake at a dock?

 

[Happyshoes]

I agree, yes they knew their attackers. Or they wouldn't have open the door to them. The murderers came to collect money (not stuff they had to pawn, they wanted cash). I believe Mr. D. mistreated some people who did work for him and they came to collect. They didn't want his cars, etc. They wanted cash.
If it's not workers, I think it was a grandchild with a friend. Sorry.

 

[Deleted member 162919]

Can someone fill me in on what I missed about "staying around all day"? If someone committed these murders, then stayed in the house, wouldn't there be tons of forensic evidence? I'm anxious to learn more since I haven't checked in on this couple in such a long time. I was of the opinion the murderers never entered the house because it was spotless. Also, does anybody give any credence to Dr. Wecht's thoughts that someone held a grudge for so long?

1st I believe Dr Wecht is right about people holding a grudge for a long time. I also think while the grudge holder might not be consumed with revenge all of his life he or she may experience a trigger that brings the grudge back and with more rage than ever. Beheading someone is definitely rage or revenge .

2nd I believe based on the reports from SS of the house being spotless that the murder didn't take place in the main house, this does not include the garage which is where I believe the murders took place. I think SD ( Shirley Dermond) answered the door or perhaps went to get the newspaper and was grabbed by the killers and brought to the garage. Either on the way to the garage or while in the garage there was a noise which RD ( Russell Dermond ) heard and went to investigate thinking maybe his wife had fallen. When he approached or entered the garage they grabbed him and then the killings took place. This of course is speculation based on the evidence SS says he doesn't have. I really think this is what happened based on 2 things. 1 the house being spotless, and the lack of forced entry and nobody hearing anything. I don't believe they stayed long and here's why. if they arrived before sunrise and stayed until sunset I am almost certain 1 of the killers would have to use the bathroom or shrubs at some point. The water company keeps records of times of water use but lets say they didn't have records of that. If 1 of the killers used the bathroom they would most likely leave some form of evidence, and if they used the shrubs a dog would have alerted police to that scent.

Basically I think this happened before sunrise and they made their getaway . I am certain this was planned since this was a million dollar home and whoever did this knew the Dermonds didn't have any security cameras in their home. Most expensive houses even half that price have security cameras.

 

[deugirtni]

Considering this happened on the weekend of the Kentucky Derby, just before the race... has it been considered that this could somehow be related to that?

I have no experience or knowledge about horse racing/betting, how much is at stake, how much there is to win, how much someone might bet, etc.?

I'm imagining the Dermonds didn't do a lot online(?)... wondering if perhaps they had someone who would collect cash from them in return for placing online bets for them?

Or could the Dermonds have provided some kind of backing for a particular horse/jockey, which possibly didn't sit well with someone? Could the Dermonds have been in on some kind of decision that was made, which affected someone negatively?

Or is it just coincidence that it happened at this particular timing of the Kentucky Derby?

 

[StarEyes]

Sheriff Sills

Thanks so much!

 

[StarEyes]

Considering this happened on the weekend of the Kentucky Derby, just before the race... has it been considered that this could somehow be related to that?

I have no experience or knowledge about horse racing/betting, how much is at stake, how much there is to win, how much someone might bet, etc.?

I'm imagining the Dermonds didn't do a lot online(?)... wondering if perhaps they had someone who would collect cash from them in return for placing online bets for them?

Or could the Dermonds have provided some kind of backing for a particular horse/jockey, which possibly didn't sit well with someone? Could the Dermonds have been in on some kind of decision that was made, which affected someone negatively?

Or is it just coincidence that it happened at this particular timing of the Kentucky Derby?

I’d never really thought about connections to the Derby. That’s a good point. They were going to that small party with friends, I think to watch the Derby. A LOT of people bet on sports even from outside our country. There’s a few reputable online sites to do so. I’ve never bet money, but I’ve followed and read the odds on sports that interested me. You can bet any amount of money you choose. The Derby is a high dollar sport. Wealthy people bet big bucks on it. While you can watch the odds and know how to read them, they aren’t always right. People win big at the Derby, but they can also lose big. Some people have or employ someone that goes to the races to place bets for them, and get updates via text/phone. It would have to be someone they trusted. Some people bet tens of thousands of dollars, even on just one horse. Derby horses cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Their upkeep and training is super expensive, too. I’m not sure how much the jockeys get paid, but I’ve been told it’s very good money. Everything about the Kentucky Derby oozes flashiness and wealth. Certainly, lots of “regular” people go or watch online and place small bets. It’s all in the fun of things. But, a ton of cash is won/lost in the high dollar bets. It’s an interesting angle, for sure. All jmo and experience.

 

[fred&edna]

I suppose gambling (Derby-related or other) could play a part in the murders. I've tried my hand at thinking "outside the box"... So I like reading other theories. Otherwise, we seem to keep arriving and concluding in the same circle of questions - always frustrating.

Currently, I'm just hoping "Into The Case" finds more clues and/or reveals new evidence.

 

[deugirtni]

One of the horses, 'Hoppertunity', was removed from the list of 20 horses that were to race in the 2014 Kentucky Derby.... which gave another horse a chance at running in the race - Pablo Del Monte.

That would have meant Pablo would have taken the 20th position. Pablo's 'powers-that-be' decided NOT to put him in the race, even though his non-refundable entry fee of $25,000 had already been paid, he was already qualified as an 'also eligible', and it was Pablo's once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to run in the Kentucky Derby, since only 3-year-old horses are eligible (and Pablo would only be 3 years old for one of the KDs).

That meant the list of horses would now only be 19, instead of 20, with spot #1 being kept open, and the other horses each moving down one in the list.

From just reading a little about the 2014 KD, it seems there are things that can happen and decisions can be made, which could potentially affect outcomes (and bets/winnings). Do we know if the Dermonds (or any of their family members) had more of an interest in the Kentucky Derby/race horses than simply attending Derby parties?

Edit to add: (or any of their family members)

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

RD had no blood in trachea would indicate he was NOT bludgeoned but how accurate is that, I guess I would like to know if SD had blood in her trachea or lungs from her bludgeoning.

Also the GSR on his collar was VERY minimal, so I dont know what that means......but if SD didnt have blood in her trachea or lungs then maybe it's possible RD was bludgeoned too?

I just think that could help give us not be quite so confused and questioning still if he was shot or bludgeoned because maybe there is a possiblibty he was bludgeoned in garage


BUT....IF SD DID NOT, then could it be RD was bludgeoned in the garage and beheaded there as we know ..........maybe it would give us more of a direction as to WHY he was beheaded, if not bullet then WHY but alteast we could then eliminate something

I just dont know that bludgeoning will splatter blood all over a room in high volumes like a gunshot and how many hits did it take? SD was hit approx 3 times I think? IIRC.......coudlnt this informatin tell us if he was likely killed in the garage?

How much blood does a lodged bullet splatter?

Will a .22 or .38 bullet actually lodge in a skull at close range?

I just can't believe there was no footprints or a shoe tip print with all that blood onthe floor......and bending over wiping up all that blood smearing it around with towels? HOw was not a fiber of hair or clothing found?

Whose towels, that is still a secret. Im sure LE could detect another one similar in the house or garage if they were the D"s, IF NOT........were there hair and fibers left behind on those towels?

Surely.......

 

[Steleheart]

RD had no blood in trachea would indicate he was NOT bludgeoned but how accurate is that, I guess I would like to know if SD had blood in her trachea or lungs from her bludgeoning.

Also the GSR on his collar was VERY minimal, so I dont know what that means......but if SD didnt have blood in her trachea or lungs then maybe it's possible RD was bludgeoned too?

I just think that could help give us not be quite so confused and questioning still if he was shot or bludgeoned because maybe there is a possiblibty he was bludgeoned in garage


BUT....IF SD DID NOT, then could it be RD was bludgeoned in the garage and beheaded there as we know ..........maybe it would give us more of a direction as to WHY he was beheaded, if not bullet then WHY but alteast we could then eliminate something

I just dont know that bludgeoning will splatter blood all over a room in high volumes like a gunshot and how many hits did it take? SD was hit approx 3 times I think? IIRC.......coudlnt this informatin tell us if he was likely killed in the garage?

How much blood does a lodged bullet splatter?

Will a .22 or .38 bullet actually lodge in a skull at close range?

I just can't believe there was no footprints or a shoe tip print with all that blood onthe floor......and bending over wiping up all that blood smearing it around with towels? HOw was not a fiber of hair or clothing found?

Whose towels, that is still a secret. Im sure LE could detect another one similar in the house or garage if they were the D"s, IF NOT........were there hair and fibers left behind on those towels?

Surely.......

Well I know for a fact that a random projectile at a scene cannot identify anyone. If they had it they would save it on the off chance they get a firearm to match it to. Rifling in the barrel, lands and grooves and firing pin marks are all unique in each firearm. But a random bullet is just a bullet and useless unless a gun that matches it can be tied to someone specific. It just would not be worth the gore of it all. My Opinion is that beheading labels the victim as being significant and very personal. He was staged between his 2 cars from the description we got early on. And SD was taken far off so as not to mar the presentation of RD to his loved ones. To me they took his face, his mind, his person. His identity.

JMO

 

[Steleheart]

Well I'm not finding the reference right now but RD's official cause of death was cranial cerebral trauma - but what I was looking for was how they know that and I believe it is from spinal fluid in the spinal canal.

Putnam County Coroner Gary McElhenney says Russell Dermond died from cranial cerebral trauma. That is the official cause of death listed on the autopsy.

Friday morning McElhenney told 13WMAZ's Anita Oh, cranial cerebral trauma means the cause of death was some sort of wound to the head, but they won't know exactly what until they find the head. McElhenney says that hasn't happened yet.

Coroner: Dermond died from head trauma

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Thanks Stele

The bullet can be matched to a gun, of course they may have checked with those closes to him but you just get rid of the gun.......but.........when you purchase a gun you leave a paper trail, unless there is a large database on what one purchases, you'd have to find out WHERE someone COULD have purchased and weapon and find the papers showing what type..........thats really jumping thru hoops if you DONT have a bullet and even if you do it may not even be a local purchase to the person's hometown, say someone close to the family for instance

Well many and SS and now Wecht (sp?) suggesting the head was removed to avoid detection by bullet

IF so they went to even greater lengths to avoid to detection and were hellbent on not being discovered!

There was GSR HOWEVER, PH says that doenst mean he was shot.........okaaay?

Yeah they definitely wanted to make a statement leaving him there like that

But in all that was done it seems so meticulously planned and confused the investigation terrifically and they got their 48

Well I know for a fact that a random projectile at a scene cannot identify anyone. If they had it they would save it on the off chance they get a firearm to match it to. Rifling in the barrel, lands and grooves and firing pin marks are all unique in each firearm. But a random bullet is just a bullet and useless unless a gun that matches it can be tied to someone specific. It just would not be worth the gore of it all. My Opinion is that beheading labels the victim as being significant and very personal. He was staged between his 2 cars from the description we got early on. And SD was taken far off so as not to mar the presentation of RD to his loved ones. To me they took his face, his mind, his person. His identity.

JMO

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Well I'm not finding the reference right now but RD's official cause of death was cranial cerebral trauma - but what I was looking for was how they know that and I believe it is from spinal fluid in the spinal canal.

Coroner: Dermond died from head trauma

Yes I remember this too. but I dont recall that spinal info............so, NOT BLOOD? but spinal fluid in the spinal canal, shouldn't that be there?

I'll dig around, if you do find that article please post, that would be interesting

but as far as the cranial cerebral trauma........there mustve been no other deadly wound besides the head removal thus assuming he was bludgeoned or shot?

Thanks Stele

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Dermond's body did not have any gunshot wounds, stab wounds, or bruising. The coroner says there was no indication of a struggle.

I think the same article above by Stele................

no indication of s struggle? Didnt he have bloody hands and a cut on his war wounded finger?

Yes I remember this too. but I dont recall that spinal info............so, NOT BLOOD? but spinal fluid in the spinal canal, shouldn't that be there?

I'll dig around, if you do find that article please post, that would be interesting

but as far as the cranial cerebral trauma........there mustve been no other deadly wound besides the head removal thus assuming he was bludgeoned or shot?

Thanks Stele

 

[dancinunderthemoon]

Also another report:

Coroner Gary McElhenney said Dermond died from cerebral cranial trauma. "They found no evidence of any trauma that would be life-threatening, so that eliminated the body," McElhenney said.

The coroner said there are a number of possibilities that could have caused the head trauma, including a gunshot or a blow to the head.

SO IF THIS CORONER FEELS it could be EITHER then dang, was he or wasnt he shot or bludgeoned?! Because according to Wect, no blood in trachea indicates NOT bludgeoned and according to McElhenney.....likewise neither does gunshot leave blood in trachea or lungs?

CONFUSED, and there was no other bodily life threatening injuries

What about strangulation with cord? Maybe it wasn't the t shirt collar line they followed when they did it ,as SS initially stated it appeared, but maybe a cord indention or cut/mark?

With strangulation are there clues to indicate such or would there be no blood in trachea/lungs too?

Would still like to know if SD had blood in her trachea or lungs for comparison

RD had no blood in trachea would indicate he was NOT bludgeoned but how accurate is that, I guess I would like to know if SD had blood in her trachea or lungs from her bludgeoning.

Also the GSR on his collar was VERY minimal, so I dont know what that means......but if SD didnt have blood in her trachea or lungs then maybe it's possible RD was bludgeoned too?

I just think that could help give us not be quite so confused and questioning still if he was shot or bludgeoned because maybe there is a possiblibty he was bludgeoned in garage


BUT....IF SD DID NOT, then could it be RD was bludgeoned in the garage and beheaded there as we know ..........maybe it would give us more of a direction as to WHY he was beheaded, if not bullet then WHY but alteast we could then eliminate something

......

 

[deugirtni]

Couldn't taking the head be considered to be indisputable proof that RD was indeed killed/dead, which perhaps a 'hitman' provided to his client (possibly in a different state) in return for payment?

(I don't believe the killer(s) was a 'professional hitman' -- a professional would know it would take more weight than what was used, to keep SD's body submerged -- by 'hitman' I mean someone who may have been paid by someone else to do the job.)

 

[Steleheart]

I just think if this/ these killers bludgeoned SD - then the simplest answer is that is their MO. Why not just shoot SD as well. A blow to the head and then finishing blows is quieter. Especially if this happened early in the morning.
Yes blood can result from either. I usually believe Wecht but it's deduction on his part IMO. If I recall some discussion by the coroner or Dep. Coroner or someone that spinal fluid containing certain brain chemicals, neurotransmitters, etc. indicates trauma same as blood which doesn't belong in the trachea or in the spinal fluid. swallowing blood, etc Can but either way it's trauma - Gun or hammer. But taking the head and staging the body doesn't say hide the bullet to me, LOL I think SS has said that he body was only moved a short distance judging from a small blood pool under the body.
GSR on the collar would be simple to explain if RD owned his own rifle or shotgun. Maybe he took a shot at some varmint in his bathrobe one morning/ night.
But a projectile in and of itself cannot identify a particular firearm or owner since several makes, models and styles using the same caliber are possible.
JMO