Gene Hackman dead at 95: Iconic actor and wife, 63, are found dead with their dog at Santa Fe home. #2

[Cherwell]

Surely stranger things have happened. They were incredibly wealthy, living remotely with no surveillance cameras, no security, and some friendly dogs. Personally, I find the chances that they both just dropped dead simultaneously (and possibly the dog at the same time, we don't know) even more unlikely.

Even without a direct cause such as a heart attack, Gene was old and frail, and very vulnerable without a carer. If he fell and Betsy wasn't there to help him up he would have died there on the floor.
So if she died suddenly, the odds of him dying too shorten a lot.
And then neither of them would be there to let the dog out.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[friendlysleuther]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
However, In the press-conference, it states--

---

Reporter | 00:09:15
Were you able to determine whether they fell or not? Was there any trauma evidence on the bodies to suggest a fall?

Sheriff Adan Mendoza | 00:09:28
No, I don’t think there was any indication of that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body. I'm assuming if they would have fallen or injured themselves, or if there was a head injury or brain injury, that would have been discovered by the pathologist.

 

[Cherwell]

I was talking about whether the crate the dog was found in was open or shut. That could be something only a killer would know, which is why I find it curious that the police haven't started one way or another. Could be nothing or could be something, IDK.

Do we know if the door to the bathroom was closed? That certainly would be interesting to know.

Yes, even if the crate was open all that it needed for the dog to be trapped is the bathroom door to be closed.

 

[Gemmie]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
While I could end up wrong, I'm going to have to disagree that all 3 of them being found dead is suspicious. Sure, if the dog hadn't been crated, and perhaps even if the other 2 dogs were found deceased inside the house as well, yeah, that's suspicious as heck.

But, he was 95 years old. Death of a 95 yo with a heart condition isn't at all surprising to me. Neither is the dead dog because it was locked up! It couldn't get out to fend for itself. Due to the dog being crated I'm taking it out of the equation. Now we have 2 dead people, dying about the same time.

While it is a little odd that Betsy was also deceased, and at a young age of 63, we don't know if she had any health issues.

What I'm putting my money on is that Betsy had the first incident. She was likely going to take her daily meds and whatever happened, happened. An aneurysm? A heart attack? For her it could have been fatal or not.

Gene hears her fall to the floor due to the ruckus the heater and dropped pills made. She might have even made some sounds of distress. He goes to see what's going on, finds the scene as it was (her on the floor, overturned heater, and scattered pills) and hurries off the best a 95 yo that needs a cane to walk can hurry off to get help.

He's distressed. He's upset. He's scared. Just even the initial sight of his dearly beloved on the floor either deceased, or in distress, is going to upset him greatly. He got hit with a flood of adrenaline, his heart is pounding, he can even hear it in his ears, and his blood pressure shoots through that roof and down he goes, likely dead before he even hit the floor.

IMO that's what killed Gene. As for Betsy... her event either killed her right away, or shortly after. Or, she could have been very much alive like the poor crated dog, just unable to get back up and died where she laid for days with no help coming. Her death likely was the same as the dog's if she didn't die immediately. No food and no water for over a week.

It's all very sad, and is likely the only reason this thread is going gangbusters, is because it wasn't just a 95 yo movie star that died. His deceased wife and dog were found at the same time he was. While all 3 deaths are sad, it's my opinion that their causes are easily explainable and not suspicious.

I am also willing to eat crow if I'm wrong. It's just where I'm placing my bet at this time. All natural.

 

[priyaya]

German Shepherds may be friendly but they are fiercely protective of, and loyal to their owners and being guard dogs is hard wired into their DNA, someone the dogs didn’t know trying to break in would not result in a good outcome for said intruder

Only possibility regarding a burglar/intruder would be if it is someone the dogs already know well like a family member or someone who has been inside the Hackman house many times by invitation

also pack mentality. dogs have personalities, but as a pack they act to patrol and protect their own space

 

[Cherwell]

<modsnip>

However, In the press-conference, it states--

---

Reporter | 00:09:15
Were you able to determine whether they fell or not? Was there any trauma evidence on the bodies to suggest a fall?

Sheriff Adan Mendoza | 00:09:28
No, I don’t think there was any indication of that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body. I'm assuming if they would have fallen or injured themselves, or if there was a head injury or brain injury, that would have been discovered by the pathologist.

I did post this on the other thread.
Any bruising caused by a fall would be camouflaged by post-mortem lividity.
Blood stops circulating after death and in a process called hypostasis, it will settle in the lowest parts of the body.
So when someone has fallen and died where they fell, there wll be discolouration of the parts touching the ground.

What they are saying here is that there was no apparent injury occasioned by a fall that would have been fatal.
Not that they didn't fall.

 

[SMK777]

The dogs seem to have been socialized to allow strangers on the property. I'm still not convinced that there wasn't an intruder sometime in the morning perhaps, before the one dog was let out of its crate. That's if the crate was shut -- I guess there are reasons to shut the crate if you are training but with the size of that property and their lifestyle I can't really understand the need for confining it, but I know others have a different opinion. The door to the house being open is also puzzling given that it has been stated that there is a doggy-door and the weather was apparently frigid. Did someone show up and she decided to put the dog in the crate because it was misbehaving? I really wish we knew more about the dogs and the crate situation. It's hard to figure it out without the details. I wonder if the police are purposefully withholding the info about the crate, because I haven't heard them state unequivocally that the dog was locked in the crate. Just some rambling thoughts...

I have those questions, too. I do recall a case years ago where an elderly woman was found dead and it ultimately had something to do with her handyman aggressively demanding supposed back payment for a job.

The fact that both adults and a dog were all found dead, no carbon monoxide poisoning, the door ajar-- all just intuitively feels amiss.

 

[BrianJohnson]

also pack mentality. dogs have personalities, but as a pack they act to patrol and protect their own space

Agree, if there was an intruder I think that Gene and his wife would have made so much noise, shouting/screaming “get off me’’ or whatever that it would have alerted the dogs that their owner was in trouble/being harmed and the dogs would have attacked said intruder

 

[priyaya]

What I'm putting my money on is that Betsy had the first incident. She was likely going to take her daily meds and whatever happened, happened. An aneurysm? A heart attack? For her it could have been fatal or not.

Gene hears her fall to the floor due to the ruckus the heater and dropped pills made. She might have even made some sounds of distress. He goes to see what's going on, finds the scene as it was (her on the floor, overturned heater, and scattered pills) and hurries off the best a 95 yo that needs a cane to walk can hurry off to get help.

im leaning this way but still hung up on the different locations and the dog locked up.
if he saw her, surely his first response would be to call for help not to physically go try to find help. although we dont know his mental state.

This is where a layout of the house would be really helpful.
how far away were they from each other?
i haven't seen him walking in recent photos without holding onto her. I dont think he could have made it very far on a cane alone.

 

[pentimento]

also pack mentality. dogs have personalities, but as a pack they act to patrol and protect their own space

But the remaining two dogs seem to have let the caretaker and the maintenance guy on the property without incident. I have a dog that is territorial, and she is fenced but I live on a much larger property where there are many dogs that roam and they are socialized to bark when someone comes near, but will not attack intruders. Perhaps those two were outside when the incident occurred. If there was an intruder it may have been someone they were familiar with and weren't expecting any harm. Maybe the crated dog was the territorial one and that's why it was crated. I have to lock my dog in the kitchen when I have a maintenance person in the house.....

 

[BrianJohnson]

I have those questions, too. I do recall a case years ago where an elderly woman was found dead and it ultimately had something to do with her handyman aggressively demanding supposed back payment for a job.

The fact that both adults and a dog were all found dead, no carbon monoxide poisoning, the door ajar-- all just intuitively feels amiss.

If all 3 dogs were dead I would think there might be something in it regarding foul play/burglary gone wrong theory but with 2 dogs there at the time which are by nature guard dogs majorly protective of their owner it is impossible this was the case

When I was having a playfight with my nephew on living room floor 14 years ago my Rottweiler charged into the room like a creature possessed, growling and snarling, if I had not shouted STOP at the dog I have no doubt he would have killed my nephew, none at all

There is no way anyone attacks Gene/his wife with dogs like German Shepherds and walks away

 

[Cherwell]

im leaning this way but still hung up on the different locations and the dog locked up.
if he saw her, surely his first response would be to call for help not to physically go try to find help. although we dont know his mental state.

This is where a layout of the house would be really helpful.
how far away were they from each other?
i haven't seen him walking in recent photos without holding onto her. I dont think he could have made it very far on a cane alone.

I agree, I think he might have been outside with the dogs for a breath of air (sunglasses bear this out) and he fell when he came back in. He may never have known that Betsy had died. Really sad to think he might have been calling her and calling her and she didn't come.

 

[TailSpin]

I don't think we can draw any conclusions from the dog being crated other than as an indicator that the deaths were sudden as no pet owner would willingly leave a crated dog to die. I also think it is highly unlikely that there was an intruder in the home as there were two german shepherds roaming the property and there would be evidence left behind. it does not make sense that someone would murder or order a hit on a frail 95 year old man. The simplest explanation is that Betsy experienced a life ending medical event in the bathroom and Gene experienced one as well after becoming aware. I would like to know where the mobile phones were in the house as I would think the first reaction when becoming aware that a spouse has experienced a medical emergency would be to call 911.

 

[Austin023]

I've wondered if it was a natural death (Hackman) and a suicide (his wife). Or I suppose two natural deaths in very quick order...like Hackman had a medical emergency and his wife, in a panicked rush, had a heart attack while trying to retrieve some medication. The dog, sadly, was left in its kennel to perish.

 

[Cedars]

Do we know if the door to the bathroom was closed? That certainly would be interesting to know.

The Search Warrant narrative has been posted a few times in the previous the thread...

The deputy writes that they entered the home and saw BA lying on the bathroom floor.

They do not describe opening the bathroom door and finding her after opening the door.

 

[Skigh]

Maybe the dog fell ill first and one or both of them over exerted themselves putting the dog in its cage which subsequently caused B and G to individually collapse from heart failure.

 

[Sillybilly]

I find it strangely coincidental that Betsy would have had a medical event at the precise time she was opening the meds for her medical event.

I also find it curious that Gene was in the mud room with his cane and sunglasses close to him. Sunglasses makes it seem that he was either coming into or going out of the home, so not an immobile, bed-ridden invalid. And not like he had found Betsy deceased or incapacitated and was on the phone to 911.

 

[CityKid]

I was talking about whether the crate the dog was found in was open or shut. That could be something only a killer would know, which is why I find it curious that the police haven't started one way or another. Could be nothing or could be something, IDK.

Do we know if the door to the bathroom was closed? That certainly would be interesting to know.

Her feet were visible to the person looking through the window, so I'm guessing not.

 

[Austin023]

I find it strangely coincidental that Betsy would have had a medical event at the precise time she was opening the meds for her medical event.

I also find it curious that Gene was in the mud room with his cane and sunglasses close to him. Sunglasses makes it seem that he was either coming into or going out of the home, so not an immobile, bed-ridden invalid. And not like he had found Betsy deceased or incapacitated and was on the phone to 911.

I was thinking more along the lines of his wife Betsy rushing to the bathroom to get some kind of medication for Gene, who was suddenly ill, and she herself had a heart attack or something like that. I agree, Hackman was probably coming in or about to go outside when he collapsed or whatever else happened.